Tuesday, June 24, 2008

I can has encryption too?

Wow. I didn't even know about this one until a coworker pointed it out to me today.

There are three main security/encryption/certificate libraries on Linux. Yep, three. That's two more choices than we need. Hurray?

There's the famous OpenSSL, which lots of both proprietary companies and free software projects use.

Then there's the freetard gnutls, because you know, GNU/free is more free than free. Seriously, they wrote another implementation because they couldn't deal with the fact that while OpenSSL was BSD licensed, it required that they OpenSSL project be advertised in derivative works. Hey check it, I got this great idea: I want to clone a useful and carefully developed library just so that nobody can tell me how to give the authors credit. Who's with me?

Then there's the nss library that came from Mozilla. Not too much to say here, except that it made gnutls pretty much irrelevant, since nss is triple-licensed (of which two are GPL, and LGPL). Take that gnutards!

I'd like to again call for another round of applause for the FSF. They again managed to totally divert a bunch of scarce developer resources into a totally worthwhile cause. Hurray for freedom! I feel freer already.

77 flames:

Anonymous said...

It's really nothing new. There are many desktop environments, gazillions of distributions, more than dozen web browsers, email clients etc. And guess what - it is not only Linux specific.

You have got gazillions paintbrush like programs for Windows. Microsoft is selling 4 different tools for writing text - notepad, wordpad, MS Word and MS Works text editor. And how many of crpg's is out there?

h1d said...

Those people with already dead brain thinking "oh the world is already rotten, didn't know?" sure does help. He knows there are more browsers than just IE and he doesn't think Linux people are all using IE/Outlook on wine.

But otoh, many of them suck. Maybe I didn't look around too hard, but the only freeware lightweight paintbrush app on Windows that's better than MS paint was .Net Paint. Since you know gazillion of them, maybe you know more. On Mac, Seashore does quite good, though the development is quite slow.

Couple implementation doesn't hurt, but I agree OpenSSL is already good enough. Didn't know about 'nss' thing but why is Mozilla putting effort elsewhere while one of their main product Thunderbird's development is pretty much on halt?

Nathan said...

well, gnutls does off a little bit better implementation that openssl, and i believe they have the latest rev of tls. their documentation is also significantly better than openssls. i will finish that last statement by saying that the gnutls documentation is pretty horrible, leaving the openssl docs pretty much non existent.

i did not even know about mozilla's attempt at this...

Anonymous said...

Yeah, let's have only one crypto library. That way, the next time the Debian maintainers bone it, every single app on your system will be wide-open.

Competition is good, okay?

tuomov said...

"Competition is good, okay?"

If it only resulted in more real diversity. But freetards write straight clone software for petty reasons of ideology: that is pretty much the essence of FOSS. Unoriginal software, by unoriginal people, for unoriginal people. One wrong word in a license, and you have a thousand freetards writing clones, like a thousand monkeys trapped in a room, in the hope of eventually reproducing Shakespeare's works. There's little in the way of new ideas, very little in the way of contributions to existing projects to help them out, but a lot of redundant work rewriting what's already been done.

h1d said...

A couple references

http://www.gnome.org/~markmc/openssl-and-the-gpl.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Security_Services

http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Overview_of_NSS

It seems, gnutls was made, because OpenSSL is GPL incompatible, and then why did mozilla come up with another one?

But it's just saying 'my app includes openssl' to comply to use OpenSSL, so... it's as religious as it gets instead of doing something more practical.

h1d said...

You see, it's as simple as getting a proper wordwrap or getting auto linking, but people don't get the right thing done...

OpenSSL and GPL

NSS at Wikipedia

NSS at mozilla.org

Anonymous said...

But it's just saying 'my app includes openssl' to comply to use OpenSSL, so... it's as religious as it gets instead of doing something more practical.

The problem with GPL incompatibility is that you also need to give permission to link your program against OpenSSL. Now, as soon as you rely on an external GPL library or any other GPL code, you also need the permission of THOSE authors. Which is oftentimes hard to get (e.g. because former developers are not reachable anymore).

This is the reason why some distributions deny to link GnuCash with HBCI support, for example.

This is annoying, but hey -- licenses should be respected, no matter if GPL, BSD, EULA, whatever.

Anonymous said...

So while (see my last comment #8) there is actually a reason to develop something like GnuTLS, the rant could much easier have been on GNU PDF, which is even a FSF high priority project.

The only reasons that I can see to start GNU PDF instead of contributing to fd.o's poppler is that poppler is written in C++ (instead of C) and licensed under "GPLv2 or later" instead of "GPLv3 or later".

Both are of course serious drawbacks that provide enough reason to fragment the FOSS PDF community even further. Or something like that.

Anonymous said...

Well, C++ has a few real problems. One is how unstable the libstdc++ ABI is, which is, of course, related to the general unstability of ABIs on FOSS, but with C++ the problem is even more pronounced. Another problem is that C++ is more difficult to create bindings to from other languages than C. C++ tends to encourage more bloated and complex APIs than C, although one can write complex APIs in C too (cf. gtk & co.). (I think most general-purpose libraries should provide a very simple C API, no matter what language they have been written in. Unfortunately, many languages have runtime baggage that results in further incompatibilities.)

Anonymous said...

In fact, poppler seems to be GPLv2 only, because xpdf is GPLv2 only. So while that makes GNU PDF have kind of a point, it'd still have been better to work on poppler replacing xpdf code and put the result under GPLv2 or later than to start a completely unrelated project from scratch.

Anonymous said...

Your "petty" reasons are not petty to me. Some ideology is important.

tuomov said...

That rabid ideology mostly plays into the hands of the big distributors, against the people who actually wrote the original non-clone software. The freetard herd just wants to let the distros fuck authors in the arsehole.

smitty1e said...

Religion is among the motives for duplicating functionality under a different license.
The GPL asserts that code is like chess pieces, and always remains in sight.
BSD asserts that code may operate like chess pieces, or treated like poker cards, and get sucked into a proprietary product.
Overall, the areligious view of licensing is best: respect the views of whoever wrote the license for a particular project and just don't go shrewish about whose definition of freedom is more free: you never know when your heart beats its last, and why waste that last on such a fruitless argument?

Anonymous said...

not worth reading. Most of all the posts...

Anonymous said...

Yeah, the posts have been mostly crap since after the first 5 or 6.

@anonymous
...the next time the Debian maintainers bone it...

The Debian maintainers made a mistake, but it wasn't their fault. More research and less anal-gazing on your part would be nice.

Anonymous said...

http://www.gnu.org/software/gnutls/comparison.html

Anonymous said...

I'm sure our earnest proprietor won't mind my pointing out that OpenSSL sucks. GnuTLS was designed with full hindsight, which makes it easier to write better code that uses it.

That said, there's nothing ideological going on here. License incompatibilities are a legal problem. Legal problems force people do any number of crazy things -- nothing unique to Free Software there. It's just gravy that GnuTLS is also better.

diego said...

The fedora guys were doing a port of everything to just a single library. I think NSS? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraCryptoConsolidation

Mauricio said...

And what about the Debian vs. Firefox case?

That is also a great example of FOSS!

Because you know I should have the freedom to use the work from Mozilla but with a different logo, no?

Dual-Booter said...

I was expecting a post about LUKS or something... not more of the same :/ Disappointing post. (But I guess that's what I get for having expectations in the first place)

Anonymous said...

I love the blog, keep it up.

GNUTLS vs. OpenSSL is kind of interesting. There are license issues but there are other ones. the GNUTLS code base is of much higher quality overall, it is also a live project with active leadership. I honestly don't know who runs the OpenSSL project and I've been on the mailing list for years.

I think Mozilla made NSS GPL compatible quite a while after GNUTLS was underway.


What's more bizarre, OpenSSL seems to be fairly different in every copy that is shipped by a different group with different ciphers enabled or disabled and various collections of patches that may or may not be applied.

Anonymous said...

Let's face it: GNU is filled with a bunch of ego-driven cretins. They constantly refer to Linux as GNU/Linux -- even though nobody else does and they really had nothing to do with its actual development -- and they want any GPL'd project to refer to itself as GNU/Fill-in-the-blank. It's all about ego. And WTF do you expect when you're led by an ass-tard like Richard Stallman, who doesn't give a rat's ass about freedom? He wants to jam his brand of "freedom" down your lame-ass throats, and you damned well better swallow, not spit, or Stallman is gonna promote another code fork.

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