Monday, June 23, 2008

Run Forrest Run!

Administrative note: check out the widget on your right to vote on the distro you hate the most! (feed subscribers, you'll have to visit the page, since Blogger doesn't let me put the poll into the main feed). In a week or so, we will have a little party to announce the most hated Linux distro. A sort of, anti-distrowatch if you will.

Back to ranting. Once upon a time, there was the conservative computer user. He'd get his hardware set up, his software set up, get it all working, then not change a thing for as long as he could. The only time he'd change anything was when he wanted some new functionality so bad, that he was willing to forget all his principles just to obtain it. And when he did so, he made sure to change as little as possible.

Actually, it turns out most computer users are like this. They don't like dicking with their system. They care much more about keeping the working shit working, rather than making the old stuff new again. My lady friend is kinda like that. She will happily let me fix stuff that's broken, but she will also often actively refuse my offers to install new software for her, out of the fear (though many times unfounded) that I will break something she relies upon.

Anyways, that's a little tangential to what I want to say. The point is that that most of the other desktop OS'es give you a choice. The choice to keep exactly what you've got, the way you've got it, or the choice to keep things mostly the same, and just go for bug-fix updates, or the choice to upgrade components one by one to get from here to there with the minimal amount of change.

Let's see how Linux stacks up here.

  • You've got the choice to keep exactly what you've got. Though this isn't as good as it sounds, because chances are, something doesn't work to start with.
  • The choice to go just for bug-fix updates? Again, not as good as it sounds, because upstream devs only work on the fun stuff. I mean, who cares about fixing bugs in old versions? People should just upgrade to the bleeding edge! Even kernel developers admit to this abysmal state of affairs.
  • The choice to upgrade component by component. Oh yea, we talked about that before. That's not really a choice, unless you know how to install compilers and debug build errors, and you have a tolerance or even a fetish of being gang-raped. Not satisfied? Well then you can upgrade your entire system every 6 months! Hurray! And if you don't? well we're gonna stop supporting it in another 6 months, and then we're going to make you do the upgrade anyways when you decide in a year that you want to jump two releases. Suck it, lusers :-D! No really, we just don't care that a large portion of ordinary users have never installed anything.
Wow, that's oh-for-three guys. And I thought this you guys were all about choice. But really, by that you meant "users p0wned!", didn't you?

In reality there's only one sad choice with Linux: try to first stand up on your two feet, and then try to keep your balance as they continually pull the rug out from underneath you. Either that, or use Debian stable, which is like already as useful as a beached whale when released, and won't go anywhere even if you tied it to Mark Shuttleworth's space rocket.

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Daengbo said...

You normally troll quite weel, but this post is below your excellent standards because of obvious factual errors.

1. The status quo: Proprietary software is no different. People choose to work around usability bugs in software and do without a cool feature or they choose to upgrade. That's software. We don't live in Eden.

2. Security fixes only: Distributions, not upstream devs, backport fixes to old versions. Devs rarely do anything of the sort. Neither do they make packages for your distribution. Their response to "Will you backport the fix for me?" will generally be "Use the newest version" or "Pay me to do it." That's no different than the commercial software world and it's how it should be. The distros do the work.

3. Component-by-component: Backport repositories exist for most major software. Since you are stuck on talking about Ubuntu, the Launchpad.net PPA section has packages for this. You can get Abiword 2.6 if you want, etc. Backports.org also exists for a reason. Debian has Debian-multimedia and debian backports. All major distros have this. If you don't like the situation, you can use a rolling update distro like Arch or Gentoo. You just ask for the newest version and get it.

On your side note about upgrading, you're talking on Ubuntu (again) and Fedora. They are designed to give the latest software. If you want stable, use Debian. Potato (released 2000) is still supported.

I expect better from you next time.

Anonymous said...

Argh! Which is the most *hated* distro? From a human suffering standpoint, that would have to be whatever is most popular--probably Ubuntu these days.

But a distro like Gentoo that makes you compile everything from scratch and then tells you it's a "feature"? That's sadism.

How about a "me too" distro like PCLinuxOS? I haven't even touched that one and I already hate the fuckers.

Linux hater, I'm at a loss as to where my own (still voluminous) demi-hate should be directed.

h1d said...

Maybe if you don't get that compiling stuff is a feature against binary distro, then you should still learn more stuff than hating them.

h1d said...

LH, can you bring CentOS in the vote too? I was about to vote for it.

LH said...

Sorry, I can't change it once people vote on it. Maybe we'll go for a second round sometime in the future.

Federico said...

H1d, altought CentOS is driven by a community, it still is an Enterprise Distro, so, it wouldn't fit with the other in the "community distro" poll.

That said, CentOS and RHEL are the only Linux distribution that are worth to be run, so, leave them out of this, please :-)

Anonymous said...

True, new users totally freak out when it comes to installing software (or configuring it for that matter). But daengbo is right, this has nothing to do with Linux. For the general population, computing, like math, has a stigma attached to it -Fuck it; there's nothing that can be done.

Nonetheless, software upgrades under certain distros seem to work just fine, much better than commercial OS'es, even. But I guess your point is that, even if we install everything we want, and we have our desktop just as we like it, with a new version of the distro it all gets fucked up. Because, lets face it, upgrading a distro instead of installing from scratch is an accident waiting to happen; And we can't except everyone will be willing to do this every six months (for openSuse, Fedora and Ubuntu, at least).

Yeah. That's a pain in the ass, and there should be an easier way to backup settings even if we do a clean install. But then again, we can't expect linux in the desktop to work as if it was a server. That's not going to happen.

Andrew said...

Not wanting to be too anal, just enough to probe that syphincter :) You have a fairly annoying typo in your poll, and yes I know it can be tough to keep up with the multitude of name changes, but it has stayed this way now for almost 2yrs (in Ubuntu terms that would be LTS I suppose).

Yes it is about openSUSE - not OpenSuSE or OPENsuse or even OpEnSUSE

Anonymous said...

How about the Ubuntu LTS releases?

h1d said...

>andrew

You are anal but I'm sure by now, he's getting black mailed that the blog's title doesn't include the word GNU.

smitty1e said...

Gentoo winning the hated distro competition?
Is it even a distro, or more a framework (betting you love that word) for letting you manage your own distro with ease?
Do start with Linux From Scratch to warm up before going to Gentoo, though.

Anonymous said...

LH, you troll distrowatch? Hahaha

dede said...

"The point is that that most of the other desktop OS'es give you a choice. The choice to keep exactly what you've got, the way you've got it, or the choice to keep things mostly the same, and just go for bug-fix updates, or the choice to upgrade components one by one to get from here to there with the minimal amount of change."


Well , Comparing Other OS'es to Open-source in that aspect is actually in favor of Open-source .

Have you ever heard about ZFS in (Open)Solaris and FreeBSD . Have you ever heard about Cisco-backed Btrfs which will be ready for Linux next year . There is also NILFS for Linux but the development lacks an obvious time line to implement the wannabe features .

Those FS'es give you the ability to take snapshots and roll back to them whenever you want . they even give you the ability to mount a snapshot read-only while the original snapshot is already mounted .

When are we going to see those features in other OS'es , let's say Windows ?

Anonymous said...

Windows already got restore points and shadow copies.
OsX got Time Machine.

The implementation details are not important, only the result.

What _currently_ can I use in Linux in order to take snapshots? Nothing? some work in progress (flyback, etc), that is not ready yet? Exactly.. now fuck off

dede said...

"Windows already got restore points and shadow copies."

What If a virus messed up your Windows installation and you can't access your OS anymore .

I didn't use windows lately so a brief idea about how Windows Restore works would be useful for me .

Will Hughes said...

"When are we going to see those features in other OS'es , let's say Windows ?"

Windows has had this since Windows XP SP1.

The level of control the user has depends upon the OS and licence.

But, right now in Vista and on my XP machines at work I can right click on almost any folder (or mount a snapshot via a command line if I feel like it) and browse to any folder at certain points in time.

The UI might suck, but it's there.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_Copy

Will Hughes said...

"What If a virus messed up your Windows installation and you can't access your OS anymore ."

I havn't specifically tried this scenario, but I believe that unless you've formatted the drive/re-initilalised the filesystem records, then old snapshots *should* be accessable via the recovery console.

It would most likely be command line only though.

However, I'm betting that if you installed windows to a new drive, and then mounted the old drive from the new windows install - you would also be able to access the older versions of files/folders on there.

Again though, I don't have any experience actually testing this. I'd also strongly recommend making a backup, because, well, if you're careless enough to get a virus whilst you're running as an Admin user, then there's nothing stoppping the virus from deleting all your Shadow
Copy Restore Points.

You've forfeited your rights to complain at that point.

Anonymous said...

Say Mac OS X. Apple is already adding ZFS to Mac OS X.

It will take years before ZFS is stable and actually used by any mainstream Linux distro.

Microsoft can't change the underlying file system so easily. Microsoft gets bashed for being stale and old. People want new things. But when Microsoft adds something new or changes something every bitches about it. Microsoft is the only company that makes any effort at maintaining OS compatibility for any relevant amount of time. They have to because that is what businesses require. Look at the shit they are taking for changing just a few things with Vista. Vista actually works pretty damn well. It just takes time for people to catch up.

Look at when Apple moved to OS X. There were 0 apps for it except what Apple made themselves. It took a few years for there to be a build up of native OS X apps but know I am getting OT.

Linux hackers don't care about what businesses want and what will be stable over many years. They code for themselves, its selfish really. That's why the code doesn't mature. It gets new features but does not mature into anything commercially stable. Writing commercially stable software is hard. Linux hackers don't care about putting in real effort into the hard stuff. They just want to work on whats cool, cutting edge and ultimately quick and easy to get quick results and a little nerd fame from blogging about the shitty great new app that they spend a few hours on. Commercially stable software takes years of hard work to write.

h1d said...

dede, you're a prime example of why people won't use Linux as their primary machine.

Options rock, don't they? As LH has said several times. I mean, have you ever heard about how things can fluctuate by putting dozen choices? Lack of equal quality among all the choices? Do they have a good interface to switch between the choices? against the little "cool snapshotting that might save one's ass once in 5 years if you have a geek friend at the right time." feature? Do you think casual users care? They don't even know that their file system changed from FAT to NTFS back then and I bet they never felt safer when they silently switched to NTFS.

And I thought lusers would just go 'Do you know google existed while you were in a cave?' if we ask something like 'how does ZFS work?' but it never works the other way around. Where is your friend Google when it comes to topic other than Linux?

We all love people like you, hence this blog.

Seriously, you must be telling girls around you how Linux rocks that it can use a file system backed by 'Cisco'! w00t!

"When are we going to see those days when things work (beside geeks) in one of bazillion Linux , let's say Ubuntu ?"

Anonymous said...

The only OSS hackers working on the hard stuff are the ones that get paid for it and work at a company like Novel, Redhat, IBM, etc...

Makes you feel like shit doesn't it. You write OSS software for free and get nothing for it while some other guy is doing the same thing and getting paid, probably a really good salary, laughing at you because you haven't woken up to the fact that no one in the "real world" gives a shit about what you are doing. Everyone else in the real world is out making money.

h1d said...

To put it simple, RMS shouts like a mad man that every code has to be free, noobs think free as in priceless and feel RMS brought a great slogan, and goes onto code for free with misinterpretation they never find out.

When in fact, there's nothing worse than people who code for free for others, but since 'foss = right thing to do' in blinded people's mind, and on top of it 'foss = coodinated work' (in fact, it's a pile of shit), they don't know when to stop or find out that current foss model just doesn't god damn work.

Let me say again, current foss model SUCKS. Do people get it at all?

Why does opening source code suddenly need to accept bunch of shit codes and rot the project? Since when is FOSS supposed to be free of price? Because people can fork? Since when is GPL/BSD the only licenses people can choose from? Can't people come up with a license that may open the code but forbids forking if that's what they want?

Oops, sorry I asked too much for the masses of blinds. Please keep your heads buried in the massive crap pile of patches while real people gets the job done.

And another trend I feel is, projects that are run by limited inidividuals, usually just a single person, seems to have a higher quality with the software, but that's obvious. But not too obvious for the religious ones.

Anonymous said...

@h1d

Sorry, I can't swim through all your horrible sentence structure and incoherent thoughts in order to compose a decent response. Maybe that's why you're so sure you're right--no one has a clue what you're saying, so no one can really respond to it.

Horatio_Hellpop said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
h1d said...

I can see many people don't get the idea it's just not working and just believe in the beloved 'free (of price)' for all its worth, so at least you don't lose any money (or get any but lose tremendous amount of time at the same time.)

"no one has a clue what you're saying, so no one can really respond to it."

Believe whatever you want 8) But you're one of those people who can't get out of the spiral.

Anonymous said...

h1d:

"Why does opening source code suddenly need to accept bunch of shit codes and rot the project?"

It doesn't.

"Since when is FOSS supposed to be free of price?"

Since never really.

"Since when is GPL/BSD the only licenses people can choose from?"

Uh, nope, it's not.

"Can't people come up with a license that may open the code but forbids forking if that's what they want?"

Yes, people can. Then it wouldn't be free software by the FSF's standards. Then they'd get all bothered or something.

More questions? Go on, I'm feeling generous.

h1d said...

Ok, here are a few better questions.

Did RMS help or screw the computer software industry (not about his contribution on the GNU part, but the spreading of GPL)? If he did screw, how was it better without so many GPL'ed codes?

If it were you to promote open source software, how would you do it? (Unlike with a serious geek look with crazy beard and just tell everyone FOSS is pure, GPL is the word of god, other software should be burnt. It's all free free free!!!), as if screaming will spread into people's mind without any logic behind it (especially with the magical word 'free').

Anonymous said...

"Linux hackers don't care about what businesses want and what will be stable over many years. They code for themselves, its selfish really. That's why the code doesn't mature"

Yeah, these selfish hackers produce such unstable and immature code that only losing companies like Google and Yahoo, and, oh, the majority of Internet servers run on their software! It's really selfish of them! You should stop using blogger.com immediately to be safe from this evil!

Anonymous said...

"You write OSS software for free and get nothing for it while some other guy is doing the same thing and getting paid,"

I don't know of anybody who writes OSS "for free". Everybody who is doing it is getting something out of it.

Makes you kind of mad, doesn't it? You write software for Microsoft and people hat you for it because it sucks. You have to deal with management incompetence, engineering messing up your pretty code, and marketing telling you what you can and cannot ship. And when you change jobs, you have to start from scratch.

Open source developers get paid as much or more as you, get to do what they want, are having tons more fun, and their users actually love them.

Jonathan said...

"Makes you feel like shit doesn't it. You write OSS software for free and get nothing for it while some other guy is doing the same thing and getting paid, probably a really good salary, laughing at you because you haven't woken up to the fact that no one in the "real world" gives a shit about what you are doing. Everyone else in the real world is out making money."

Wake up man (not my site):
http://ifacethoughts.net/2007/12/31/following-up-on-giving-away-of-code/
and
http://ifacethoughts.net/2007/07/07/the-value-of-source-code/

Daengbo said...

People from the U.S. don't really "get" why OSS is important. Indians do. Any country with a diverse set of languages to support inside the borders does. Any country which wants to create its own IT industry not beholden to another country knows the importance of it.

If the U.S. government were sending 10% of its budget abroad on say, China's Red Flag OS and trying to learn how to use a menu in Chinese, then you can bet localized Linux/BSD adoption in the U.S. would be on the "to do" list.

Thailand has the choice of MS (US) or Apple (US), piracy, or FLOSS. Only the last one is a real long-term solution.

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