Wednesday, June 18, 2008

Standardizing Linux Suckiness 2.0

Yep. Usually I don't respond to y'all's comments. It's a waste of time, mostly. But they're fun to read, so please continue hating on each other. Do our community PROWD.

But I gotta respond to this one.

Jeff Bailey (from the LSB steering commity) had a few criticisms about my rant to standardize binaries:

1) When RHEL releases every 2 years, and Ubuntu releases every 6 months, you'll never get the same base toolchains.


Please please please tell me why Ubuntu needs to ship a new toolchain every 6 months? Is there some luser grandma out there asking why she doesn't have gcc 4.1.2 instead of 4.1.1? What does this possibly accomplish except fragment everything out there? Microsoft ships a new compiler like every 3 years, and things work just fine. Even Apple (who isn't so great about backwards compatibility either) ships a new toolchain maybe once a year or so.

If you look at people actually trying to ship binary software on Linux, this is what they do: They go around looking at all the distros they want to support and they look at all the glibc's and they say, what's the MINIMUM glibc version I can depend on? What's the LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR among all these distros that I can depend on. Figuring this stuff out is really difficult, but people who ship software figure out some way to do it.

The point is, everyone is looking for the MINIMUM. Not the BLEEDING EDGE. ISV's want compatibility over the newest gcc compiler optimization flag. If there were standard core bits, then Ubuntu, and every other distro would be given a choice: go with the standard platform and add value on top, or build your own toolchain and nobody will give a fuck. LSB people need to talk to distros to make them aware of this tradeoff. There will always still be freetard distros that ignore you, but they don't matter anyways.

2) It's always possible that slightly different versions of underlying bits like glibc or the compiler can cause gross ABI changes.


Yes, that's why I said ship the EXACT SAME BITS. Figure out exactly ONCE what all the dependencies between gcc/glibc/etc in terms of ABI's are. Get a standard set, and standardize the compiled bits. No chance for different compile flags. No nothing.

3) Everyone compiling with the same toolchain and base libraries would've guarantee backwards compatability at all. Only a test suite can do that (and then, only within the limits of what's tested).


You're confusing test suites here. There are two test suites.

One is to make sure that one LSB certified distro behaves like another. Since the bits aren't standardized, you have to go about making sure they act the same. If you ship the same bits, then you get the same behavior, so you don't need to do these tests anymore.

For backwards compatibility, of course you need to do tests. But if everyone shipped the same set of bits, then everyone could work together to test the same bits. You could rev the bits once every few years to introduce new features on a very conservative schedule. The point is that testing resources are scarce, so making everyone do their own tests individually just does not scale. Plus, under the current model, ISV's won't trust you anyways because the bits on each system are different, so they'll still have to internally QA against all the distros regardless.

Anyways, guys, this is basic software engineering. The fact that I have to even write this down so explicitly makes me hopeless. The simple fact is that if you want to come up with a "standard" Linux, then your distros are going to make sacrifices. Until the distros realize that making these sacrifices will result in benefits for all of them, there's no point even debating the techincal details.

151 flames:

Anonymous said...

There's no real need for such high level of standardisation. You just need to make it possible for multiple versions of libraries to coexist -- that essentially means application directories instead of the FHS all-in-one-basket fuckup -- as well as for applications to request particular versions. Of course, some things can't be handled this way, but a lot can.

The new Firefox 3, BTW, does not work on FC4 that is still used in many places. Libraries missing. There Firefox freetards can't even supply a statically compiled package, at least I couldn't find one. And contrary what LH has stated, Firefox -- better described as Gnomefox -- is one of the worst pieces of FOSS crap.

The new Opera 9.5 has no troubles running on that FC4 box, and is a much better browser, easily configurable by the user. In Firefox, the answer to even the simplest key binding configuration is: write a fucking plugin, or use an existing generic but highly limited one, hunting the Web for hours for the snippet of javascript that the binding callback needs, because of course we can't offer a simple configuration inteface or file where one could just change the key for the already existing callback; no you have to rewrite the binding entirely. A decent configuration interface or file would be contrary the trend in FOSS of not having configuration files at all, butrather complex source code pretending to be configuration one (udev, fontconfig, hal, ...).

Anonymous said...

Heh, just tried Gnomefox3 on Debian Etch, which isn't that old:

"Baawaawaa, you have Gtk+ 2.8, I wan't 2.10"

Unbelievably crap packaging.
In freetardland, to install the most insignificant program, one has to upgrade the whole OS. We're completely at the mercy of the powerful central Party of the distros that provide either very obsolete but stable software, or recent software too unstable to be usable -- often modified to be undistinguishable from the original, yet not renamed.

Eugenia said...

Well said LinuxHater. We need Ubuntu, SuSE, Red Hat and possibly Debian, to get their act together and through LSB be truly compatible rather than just in name only. Only then you make it easy for third party apps to flourish.

Anonymous said...

[quote]
"Baawaawaa, you have Gtk+ 2.8, I wan't 2.10"
to install the most insignificant program, one has to upgrade the whole OS
[/quote]

Fully agree!

The sad thing is that the potential is there!
It's a cultural problem. The 'freetard' software is good IMO but the developers have to think about users who want to install their favourite OS (linux) *ONCE* and who care about a few apps (e.g. Firefox) and would like to install new versions every now and then.
It's sad because linux has many good characteristics but it fails miserably when it comes to installing new apps!!!

Anonymous said...

@eugenia
Way to repeat what LH already said. Care to contribute anymore of your profound insight to the community? Or would you rather edit a video of yourself booting from Leopard into Ubuntu and back again so you can show us how cool you Greek wymyn are?

Anonymous said...

Conary is aimed at fixing the whole "upgrade the whole OS for the sake of a single app" mess. But it's horrible. It's slow, no one uses it, it's designed by the same incompetent moron who gave us RPM, and it still doesn't address poor packaging such as Firefox. The archaic filesystem just needs to be dumped entirely.

Eugenia said...

>Care to contribute anymore of your >profound insight to the community?

There is nothing more to add. LH said it best, and I simply gave the thumbs up. Through all the hate I've been through as the editor in chief of OSNews from 2002 to 2006 because of these very opinions, I have earned the right to publicly say "well said man" when I see these points well elaborated and described as LH does so. It's like a big fucking "I told you so" to my ex-readers, and it feels GOOD.

If you don't like it, simply ignore my posts. Otherwise, piss off.

>how cool you Greek wymyn are?

You probably are one of these guys who hated me back then anyway and seeing me here pisses you off even more. Or, you are simply someone who can't stand women talking about technology. In any way, you are irrelevant. You don't control the internet and I am obviously the kind of woman you can't handle.

Anonymous said...

... but the first who drops the filesystem is the first to lose. (tons of apps unusable on his system)

David Prieto said...

Hey, wait a sec... you're not really a Linux Hater, are you?

Anonymous said...

@eugenia

LOL, all you ever do is talk about how you wrote, you edited, whatever. No one cares. You call yourself hot, but you're ugly. You talk about "earning" the right, but you're really just whiny. You say that I don't control the internet and that I can piss off if I don't like what you say...all the while failing to realize the extreme irony in what you say. OSNews, by the way, has always sucked. Hardcore.

And quit being so self-centered and self-important. You self-indulgent, obsessed little twit. I don't pay attention to who you are, nor do I care. If I ever read anything of yours other than your lame comments, which have your distinct face and distinct idiocy plastered all over them, I wouldn't remember. Don't think that just because people hate you means you're awesome. People hate you because you suck, not because they have any clue or care who you are.

I still find it funny that your lame site talks about how you "tell it like it is", just like some angst-driven wannabe teenager who's so proud of hating her parents and not caring what other people think that she wears the worst outfits possible just so everyone will pay attention to her.

Do you have a cave? Or do you take residence under a bridge? Either way, your comments and face are trollish and hideous. Perhaps you're secretly aware of these facts, and that's why you strive so much for attention and recognition and self-gratification?

Yuck.

Jeff said...

Long time Linux user enjoying Linux Haters blog.

Lot's of good points, some are exaggerated trolling, but most are well informed and insightful (and sarcastic, funny, and potty mouthed - all great for entertainment value).

I still use Linux as a desktop and on my laptop. In fact, I have Mandriva 2008.1 runnint perfectly on my Dell Inspiron 1526, which has an ATI graphics card (a trouble spot for Linux), and a Broadcom wireless card (another Linux trouble spot), and a 1280X800 screen resolution (anything besides 1024x700 a trouble spot for Linux).

The ATI card was detected out of the box, as was the correct resolution. So kudos to Mandriva for that.

But Broadcom wireless took a bunch of work to get right - downloading older Windows driver and configure with ndiswrapper. This would have been a show stopper for most "normal" users.

Anyway, this stuff should be solve in Linux, because the necessary pieces are all out there.

But this "Standardizing Linux Suckiness 2.0" rant it's the nail on the head.

It's hard for both distros and third party ISVs and IHVs to target the "platform", when all the core bits are of different versions from distro to distro, and even within the same distro, version to version.

For any reasonable "platform", there needs a be consistent use of the same kernel version, glibc, gcc, gtk+, Qt, shells, etc, across distros.

Why distros don't get this yet completely baffles me.

When LSB came out, what was it, 5-6 years ago, I thought the benefits would have been completely obvious to all distro makers, and they would jump on it.

But NOOOOoooooooo!

Eugenia said...

@anonymous

And yet, I am not afraid to say who I am, and show how I look like, when I write down a comment. I am who I am, I have something to say, and I say it. I don't give a fuck of what you think, or what you want from me. So again, piss off.

You all big guys replying here, are afraid to put a name behind your opinions. You are all mysteriously "anonymous".

I guess that's why your genes will eclipse. Cause you don't have the balls for anything.

Anonymous said...

@eugenia

What makes you think we're afraid? Maybe we just don't care? And for someone who claims to not care what we say, you sure do seem to get upset about it and demand that we post names. Besides, it's the internet. I could be your mom for all you know, or I could be a different person each day.

You obviously do care what we say, and you just need an excuse to brush us off.

You're the definition of ignorant.

Eugenia said...

You are absolutely right. You are worthy of getting ignored through my ignorance. Consider yourself ignored.

Eugenia said...

@Jeff

>For any reasonable "platform", there needs a be consistent use of the same kernel version, glibc, gcc, gtk+, Qt, shells, etc, across distros. Why distros don't get this yet completely baffles me.

It's because they are bred into an ecosystem that doesn't encourage collaboration to that level. What sounds like common sense to us, sounds like added work to them, and so they don't want to do it. It's difficult to convince a distro to work with another, or even a single developer with another. If LSB was to get so tight in restrictions, no distro would follow it, unfortunately. But it is something that needs to be done IMO. Someone needs to have the guts and get the 4-5 big distros in one table and get them rolling.

ensi said...

Yep. This same problem of lack of standard ABIs goes even further down into the system, crossing from user space into kernel space. An interview I read a long while ago with some hardware vendor representative was very clear on this. On average writing a device driver for Linux is up to 20-20% more expensive than writing the same driver for Windows (unified NT driver model). This is because of the lack of not only binary interfaces in different kernel versions but also because of lack of even source level compatibility!

Now obviously there's whole giant horde of people out there screaming how proprietary drivers and closed code is bad and all that crap, but it is the way it is. Maybe its time to drop idealism and accept that fact that in order to become anything and move forward things need to be stable and the environment must be such that it attracts and is simple for 3rd party HW/driver providers.

Having to fall back on some shit open source drivers (sorry, I know you do as good job as you can without full specs and stuff) just isn't going to cut it.

Now you have seen some vendors such as NVidia solve this by having their own driver core on which they build their own compatibility layer for each system separately when you install the driver. One can only image the work that must go into sustaining such system.

Anonymous said...

"There's no real need for such high level of standardisation. You just need to make it possible for multiple versions of libraries to coexist -- that essentially means application directories instead of the FHS all-in-one-basket fuckup -- as well as for applications to request particular versions."

The first commenter is right. The GoboLinux distribution does this by placing each library version in a separate directory and it seems to work pretty well.

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately nobody seems to be taking notice of Gobolinux, except for even more extreme hobbyist users than would rush to Gentoo or Slack-based distros. Gobo also has incredibly slow development, promises of updates that never come, almost no networking abilities, the ugliest default font setup I've seen, and...is yet another incompatible branch of the tentacle monster that is Linux.

It's too bad the one thing they got right is being ignored by the rest of the community.

Anonymous said...

LH, you failed so hard this time, it's not even funny.

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/146

And

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/150

tuomov said...

"... yet another incompatible branch of the tentacle monster that is Linux."

Yeah, Yet Another Distro is not the solution. Still exactly that is a popular FOSS fallacy: "you can always roll your own, if you don't like the existing ones". But that is a huge amount of work, given that in freetardland, the centralised distro provides all the software that is easily installable. There is no culture of author-provided easily-installable packages. Indeed many party-loyal freetards are vehemently opposed to that, wanting the distros to provide everything, in a modified form, reducing the role of the author to a mere unpaid subcontractor.

Rather, the role of distros should be reduced into Core Operating Systems that provide a stable base of only the most essential software -- exactly the software that should just work, and I should not care about the versions of -- as well as possibly a very limited set of other software customised for their target audience. The rest of the software should be installed directly from author-provided packages. With a suitable decentralised package description/location scheme using relocatable application directories (for multiple version coexistence and non-root installs), much of the good features of distros' package management can still be had. ZeroInstall seems to be the best attempt at that so far, but not even nearly good enough. And the bigger problem seems to be social than technological.

Berlin Brown said...

Yea, I have been saying this from the early RH5 days.

You remember a loooooooooong time ago when most software and computers; you were given a program on disk and you typed the command to run?

**GASP**

Now, with a lot of linux systems, you have to compile the code or type the apt command get all of the dependencies. And it might work fine on Ubuntu but then when you go to some other system, there are a totally new set of steps.

Here is what would be nice; I download a f**king program and I f**king run it. I download then double click, click or type the command. I don't want to compile the software or get dependencies or recompile my kernel.

Even windows has supported this to some degree. If you know what you are doing, you can normally bundle all the application without going through an install process. I have an old copy of Adobe Photoshop setup this way. I just copy the Photoshop directory from the CD and launch the application. No installs or registry settings, just run. This is what linux should strive for.

*Configurations*

It drives me nuts that Redhat, Ubuntu have all these different configuration setups. Setting up an Apache server on Redhat might be completely different than Ubuntu. Configuration files might be in different locations, startup scripts are totally rewritten.

*Quit ignoring what is going on in the desktop world*

Why is it Apple and Microsoft can make billions and billions with software where the components are tightly integrated but in the elitist linux world; there is a religion centered around keeping the world separate.

We aren't just using your stupid software so we can only use a kernel or a Xwindows server or a window manager or an interpreter. We want the WHOLE freaking thing. And we are going to have a DESKTOP environment. This blackbox approach is not working.

End of rant.

And Kudos to the Ubuntu group. 99.9% of the time, I can get Ubuntu up and running with the software I want without worrying about the intimate details. I am not a network admin, but for personal use Ubuntu works fine.

Anonymous said...

Linux is a piece of crap.

No drivers. Basically no third parties apps. No games. No standard way of installing and _uninstalling_ software. No binary compability. No usability. No decente multimedia support. No Just Works. No inovation, just cloning stuff.

Piece of crap.

Want a real OS? Try Mac OS X or even Windows.

tuomov said...

"there is a religion centered around keeping the world separate."

There isn't enough of keeping things separate and abstract. The current religion is providing huge bureaucratic structures of monocultures, instead of coexistence and flexibility through abstraction. The periodically megafrozen megadistros providing a static snapshot of the world that can only updated as a whole, are a case in point.

Anonymous said...

Let's say it's an alternate universe and the LSB listens to you. A kernel, gcc/glibc, toolchain components, etc are all collected and assigned a version X. Gentoo, Ubuntu, Debian, Red Hat, hell even Slackware all decide for their next release they want to support LSB X. They build their apps with it and that kernel and everything's great.

6 months down the road, new hardware and slow development births new drivers. New kernel functions are necessary for developers to develop some next-gen super duper app which will save the company tens of thousands. All this prompts drivers to be backported and apps and libraries patched so they work with the old standard that everyone's stuck with for the next year and a half. On top of it the distros want to provide their users with newer functionality. First solution? Have a separate branch with bleeding-edge shit. It becomes buggy because they're putting every piece of shit beta app and library in there without adequate testing and releasing new stuff before the old stuff is even burned in.

Enterprise users are forced to upgrade to the latest distribution because it conforms to standard X, because they want to use app ABCD 9.0 and it requires standard X. Hundreds of man hours and countless dollars lost in stopping development to upgrade all their apps, considering their whole system just changed and not one library and one app. That's not mentioning the work the sysadmins have to do to get all the legacy shit and configuration tweaks to work in the new OS, which they don't have time to test.

Let's ignore the fact that new toolchains fix bugs and introduce speed improvements, memory cleanups, etc not to mention new features. Let's ignore the fact that new designs for core operating system functionality like hardware abstraction work better in newer versions, and hardware support (and software support for different platforms) itself improves in things like the toolchains and kernels. Let's ignore the fact that "the same compile bits" is retarded considering the software you build, the market it's designed for and how well you want it to work on your given hardware. You know why nobody *will ever* agree to this shit? Nobody wants to!

Why do you think distros don't share information more often? Why don't they share bug reports and patches and tips on compiling this or bootstrapping that? Why is there such a lack of cooperation? From my point of view it's ego and lazyness. There are a lot of people who TRY to share information with more than one distro but really they're all their own islands. There's no incentive to make things interoperable between distros or versions. The enterprise-level players who have major cash sunk into the idea that their particular brand of penguin juice will last longer and work better are probably interested in keeping shit at a baseline (hence backporting every fucking thing for a year or two and ending up with a kernel that looks like a jigsaw puzzle) but i'm sure Red Hat isn't losing sleep if app ABCD doesn't work with their or any other distro. If Your Customers Buy Into Your Bullshit, The ISV's Will Come.

My opinion on making a "standard": First, make sure the ISV's only focus on enterprise-ready distros (which hopefully they already do). Then make a Gentleman's Agreement that if somebody ships a toolchain that's so vastly different from the one in some other distro's last toolchain that it's breaking ABI compatibility and all other sorts of shit, you sort of "reg flag" the release to let people know it breaks compatibility with apps. The only other thing I think that'll make all the distros play nice is if you create the standard for the toolchain and make it an "extra" package. That's right: a second toolchain right in your distro. /opt comes back and ISVs can develop for the toolchain and distros can continue to bring in new apps, code, drivers, features without ever touching the "extra" toolchain.

Naunaud said...

"After 15 years of development, Wine version 1.0 has been released. Wine is an Open Source implementation of the Windows API on top of X, OpenGL, and Unix. While perfect windows compatibility has not yet been achieved, full support for Photoshop CS2, Excel Viewer 2003, Word Viewer 2003 and PowerPoint Viewer 2003 have been among the goals prior to the release. For further information about supported applications, head over to the appdb. Get it (source) while it's hot."
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS7959950148.html

This is fun :D
And a little pathetic...

Anonymous said...

All I can think is, can anyone see the strong minded personalities that rule open source ever agreeing on anything?

Also, whoever is actually the linux market leader would probably rather shit in their hats and wear them then give the competition a leg up by following standards. How would they stand out amongst a million clones?

The amount of work that gets done by each distro packaging thousands of apps is stupefying and just fucking retarded. It's masterbation, time that could be used productively.

The kernel is modular. A distro is monolithic. Somewhere there is a disconnect.

ArtInvent said...

I just found your blog and have nothing particularly inspired to add about this post, other than it's spot on and hilariously so. As are all the others. The one on fonts was a tour de force. I use and love Ubuntu and often hate it too, I'm about in the phase you mention where I just want to use the LTS and not upgrade every 6 months because it breaks shit and wastes days of my life.

The only thing I hate worse is Windows (that's on my other computer, which is also a god awful life sucking morass pit.) I often think about getting a Mac but there are already things I hate deeply about Apple so that would a fun adventure too. I won't do it simply because I don't have the energy to come to terms with the sucky aspects of yet a third OS.

I guess my only point is I use the platform that has the apps I like. I actually really like a lot of the apps on Linux, and there are some I've invested in/may still invest in that only run on Windows.

If Linux people actually read your blog then we might actually get somewhere. Keep it up, baby, keep it up.

Matt said...

"The amount of work that gets done by each distro packaging thousands of apps is stupefying and just fucking retarded. It's masterbation, time that could be used productively."

This is what gets me! It is a total waste of effort on the part of distro;s and communities.

It seems from reading these comments that there are two distinct groups of distro's. The serious Enterprise distro ala RHEL (LTS releases) which as mentioned release infrequently relative to Desktop distro's (Ubuntu, Fedora etc).

Also, how many credible Enterprise Linux solutions are there? RHEL/whatever Novell releases and maybe Ubuntu LTS's. So maybe Desktop is the real problem?

It seems in reality you would need two specifications/standardised toolchains. One for slow moving targets and another for those distro's with a 6 monthly release timeframe. I guess Shuttleworth's proposal on synchronised release schedules would be a de facto toolchain standard in the Linux Desktop world?

Anonymous said...

@ artivent

"If Linux people actually read your blog then we might actually get somewhere. Keep it up, baby, keep it up."

My impression from the comments and author is that most people are Linux users.

You get the occasional Mac troll, but I think most people are Linux people who are able to see the validity of many of these arguments and the humor in their delivery.

Matt said...

hi,
i like this.
you seems to know whats broken socially with linux.
hopefully, people can start fixing.

tuomov said...

"hopefully, people can start fixing."

Dream on. There are to much vested interests. Those in power can seldom admit that they were wrong. At most you'll get marginal improvements that in practise amount to nothing but more crappiness (cf. LSB, and politics in the wider circles too). Complex systems keep those who get paid to grok them in power, and the userbase impotent, at their mercy.

said...

Linux standardization is akin to trying to govern Anarchists. You have independent camps developing software. That's good. You have independent camps putting it together in different ways and managing the independent pieces of software. That's good too, right? The issue is that now you have to independent areas to govern and standardize, which makes it extremely hard. And we haven't even mentioned the fact that for each piece/type of software there are warring camps that support a total different backend (ie. kde/qt vs. gnome/gtk). So now we have what 2, 3, or more dimensions of disjointed, anarchists? Good luck trying to standardize.

IMO, distros are going to continue bringing it all together and producing a complete (maybe?) product for the consumer. I absolutely hate fucking w/ my CentOS installs at work b/c it is yet another, different system to navigate. I just prefer my tried and true Gentoo system I know inside and out. Writing an ebuild is fairly straight forward in Gentoo to install dependencies and thus install your software (assuming one isn't already available).

If you want a set it, forget it, untweakable system, then install Mac OSX or Winblows. However, someone who really takes the time to learn their linux system has gained a wealth of knowledge. Over the 6 and some years I have used Gentoo, I have learned more about my systems' internal workings and more about the components that make up linux than grandma's ass playdough colored Ubuntu. or even Windows or Mac OS.

said...

All in all, I just find myself wanting this wonderful operating system that is a mashup of the functionality of linux (and those nifty effects, thank you beryl), the polished look, gameability, and support of Windows, topped with some Mac OS spice.

And since no single OS is going to be able to handle all three in a single package. I dream of the day where virtualization will allow me to run all three with minimal overhead and full pass through support for 3D graphics cards so gaming will have native speeds. Then I can switch back and forth as I need to use certain things.

tuomov said...

"Linux standardization is akin to trying to govern Anarchists. You have independent camps developing software. That's good. You have independent camps putting it together in different ways and managing the independent pieces of software. That's good too, right? The issue is that now you have to independent areas to govern and standardize, which makes it extremely hard."

The Linux distros' position is far from anarchist; they've become the powerful central Party instead. Authors have to do what the distros say, or they have little chance of getting exposure for their software.

In any case, to maintain anarchic choice while still being able to cooperate, brings as back to the old unix principle of mechanisms, not policy. Provide reasonably abstract mechanisms for different systems to cooperate, that impose as little policy as possible. The direction taken by the World Domination desktop projects and increasingly more other popular projects that shape the overall direction of Linux/FOSS is exactly the opposite: strict monocultures; bureaucratic structures of the specific; layers of specific ad hoc kludges upon layers of kludges.

For example, back in the day an abstract locale system -- that would need improvements, yes -- was devised so applications would use abstract character sets and users could choose one suiting their needs, instead of one being imposed. Now everyone is racing to dump this abstract system and standardise on an UTF-8 monoculture -- APIs explicitly specified to use UTF-8 instead of an abstract unspecified character set . Yes, everyone in their right mind would in most cases presently choosen UTF-8 locale, because there are little in the way of alternatives offering the same character range. But standardising on a specific character set makes it difficult to switch to a better one, when one comes along. (Unicode is too complex and has many problems; it should be simplified, dumping many things that belong in a higher level format.)

Eugenia said...

>However, someone who really takes the time to learn their linux system has gained a wealth of knowledge.

Unless you are an admin, and you are getting mo'money for that knowledge compared to your fellow admin, I see no reason to acquire that knowledge. For 99.9% of the users out there, that "knowledge of tweaking" is a complete waste of time. It just serves no purpose whatsoever if the OS was functioning properly.

tuomov said...

"For 99.9% of the users out there, that "knowledge of tweaking" is a complete waste of time. It just serves no purpose whatsoever if the OS was functioning properly."

Furthermore, power user level tweaking possibilities are becoming increasingly rare. There's an ethos of "either you're one of us developers, or you're an idiot user". That is, you're expected to either succumb into begin an idiot user content with the provided default settings, or you have to essentially train yourself into a developer to configure anything.

Anonymous said...

Hello, I'm a developer.
I an embedded / driver developer.

I don't fucking care about configuring the gui, editing anything in /etc/, or tweaking fonts for performance.

I just want my drivers to work, and have an environment that allows me to do so with minimal unrelated effort.

(I don't want to hit x.org for my dual screen setup, for example. I just don't fucking care).

Alexei said...

>> There's an ethos of "either you're one of us developers, or you're an idiot user".

Indeed. Unix was "by developers, for developers" from the start. "Use the source, Luke!" - stuff like that. After all, that's how we developed it, what's so hard? And if you don't have the knowledge/time/desire to dive into the source - to heck with you, shut up and be grateful for the FREE os. We're not like those eeevil capitalists of M$ or Apple, hey, we saved you a hundred bucks! (at the expense of who-knows-how-many hours of your time)

This runs deep - don't expect user-friendliness from anything *nix, that's how I see it.

tuomov said...

"This runs deep - don't expect user-friendliness from anything *nix, that's how I see it."

It wasn't so bad once. 13 years ago Linux was a nice rather simple OS. Now it's a complex monstrosity -- mostly thanks to poor attempts at trying to make it an idiot-user friendly WIMPshit "desktop OS".

vistek said...

wow! awesome blog and great viral man! u r my hero now :)
keep up good work and don't give up! together we can fuck these all freetards really deep !!!

viśtek®

Abel Cheung said...

What I see in the fallacy of FOSS, indeed many reasons and factors are involved, but there are 2 big ones:

1: Idealism. This is one of the exact reason why FOSS has initial success at the first start. A bunch of people who don't like how existing corrupted world worked, and they think they can do better. Thereby FOSS come, and Linux (and all associated stuff) is one of the fruit. Skillful people are attracted, and they see the value.

Then came the next stage: make it work for the public as a whole. Meet with reality. Meet with this ugly world and face it. That is the time when idealism is killing FOSS. The same group of people who want to break away with reality has to fall back to reality again. Would they? I suppose there is not much need of elaboration on this point. Just not long ago I still see people (you bet which category of people) who are complaining Linux is too easy to use, they want it back to the time how people used Linux during 1995 era. That's the true Linux way.


2: Sharing of... source. Yeah. Sharing of source. The very founding stone of FOSS. People just share the source, but fail to realise it's actually the sharing of knowledge, sharing of information, sharing of ground work that act as the driving force behind success of FOSS.

Take distros as example. By definition, those people behind distro are strong minded people. They believe their way of configuration, their way of file system layout (and whatever) are the best, one truly way. Want to have them joining effort? Imagine trapping RMS, D J Bernstein, Jörg Schilling and David Dowes in one single room and tell them to work on a software together. The final product will be a soap opera instead (or a news headline mentioning 4 dead bodies).

And people are actually actively preventing sharing of knowledge. Nowadays we tell people to RTFS, even RTFM is outdated. Want to learn? If you can't get the heads and tails out of it by yourself, you're not competent enough, stop bitching and feed on what I give you. This is not just elitism, but those elitist intentionally preventing more people to participate, preventing other l33ts to share the controlling power they have enjoyed so much, while at the same time bitching about why nobody helped them.

LH already talked about sharing of ground work, I don't have anything to add. Just as an example: we have an I-can't-count-how-many-illion number of tetris clone. Can we get them to work together and create a better one? This is by definition anti-FOSS.


Now everybody is getting serious too after LH is becoming serious (don't count the trolls and cluelesses). This looks like a good direction to change to, at least to me.

tuomov said...

"Just not long ago I still see people (you bet which category of people) who are complaining Linux is too easy to use, they want it back to the time how people used Linux during 1995 era. That's the true Linux way."

In 1995, Linux was easier to use than today. By focusing on the WIMPshit idiot user, the complexity has made it difficult to use for the power user. It has become just another cheap plastic Windows/OS X clone.

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tumonov -

I don't know about 95, Linux WAS NOT user-friendly in 99 when I first encountered it.

Win9x might have been less stable, but at least it didn't require me to compile stuff if I just wanted to listen to a couple of mp3s.

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Well, installing programs required some compilation in 1995, but then again the dependencies weren't so huge, and the constantly failing and difficult-to-fix fuckup known as autoconf wasn't so widespread; just simple makefiles where to changes a few parameters.

Also, in 1995 it wasn't any effort to get unblurred fonts -- fonts simply were nice bitmap fonts. In 2008 getting unblurred fonts is an enermous amount of work that involves recompiling Xft with a bytecode interpreter, and writing a 100 lines of XML code.

In 1995, the same old chmod and chown and ln -s that can be used to change file permissions and create symlinks, worked for devices in /dev too. In 2008 you have to edit cryptic config files for the piece of crap known as udev, /dev merely presenting a shadow of these files.

In 1995, it was feasible for the power user to compile the kernel; there weren't that many options. In 2008, the task of compiling the kernel is hopeless with a zillion options one has no fucking clue about, and yet the distributions still do not provide usable fast-booting kernels that would load the drivers I want.

The distros kernels e.g. load the insane random scsi-mapping libata drivers for SATA devices, that do not appear at a predictable location on boot (without POS udev overcomplexity), that do not work with noflushd (that can be used to spin down disks), that hddtemp (that reports temperetures) causes to spin up, etc. I'd rather use the old drivers that make the devices appear as the predictable /dev/hde or so, work with the above programs, but the distros' kernels don't allow this.

And yet such modern features such as hibernate are unlikely to work on the distros' POS kernels as well. Especially so with encryption; for even such a basic faeture you're supposed to build a new initrd yourself.

And so on. The complexity just keeps piling.

Abel Cheung said...

In 1995, Linux was easier to use than today. By focusing on the WIMPshit idiot user, the complexity has made it difficult to use for the power user. It has become just another cheap plastic Windows/OS X clone.

Well, probably in some sense you're true. During early days I still have the option to apply custom patch and recompile the whole X Windows (urgh), to make most buttons work for my Logitech MX1000 mouse. Now I don't even have that possibility anymore. Nowadays what works for me is left/right button, and the wheel. Nothing more. That evdev thing helped me to recognise what Linux is about.

Ing-Long Eric said...

Linux today indeed suck compared to 1994. Back in 1994, I had Slackware. It supported all my ISA network cards out of the box. Even if I needed a driver, I can just download it and install. No compile required. Everything fit on a 100Meg Zip disk, including X-Windows. If I needed some software, I just download a package and do pkgadd. No dependency problems. I could do everything and more than what Windows 3.1 did. Well. Now Linux does everything worse.

Christoffer said...

It's a waste of time to improve Linux anymore. The distros simply don't want to cooperate and fix their big issues.

The funny thing is that all ISVs get a lot heat from Linux users. Eg. Adobe Flash 9 sound does not work on Hardy because Hardy uses a new sound system! Surprise, surprise, Adobe gets the heat, not Ubuntu.

This it totally backwards. ISVs should not have to take this crap from Linux distros.

I personally see much more potential in Haiku. There is only going to one Haiku, not distros. Also, they don't want to have package managers and they strive for binary compatibility it seems.

Right now, people waste their time working on Linux while ordinary people are forced to use Windows and MacOSX to stay sane.

tuomov said...

"I personally see much more potential in Haiku."

The problem with most of these marginal "alternative" operating systems is that they do not really provide choice at all: they are clones of Windows/OS X and provide only a WIMPshit monoculture.

The greatest thing about Linux/unix/X is that I (still, but how much longer?) can write and use a window manager like my own Ion -- pretty much the only reason why I'm still using Linux/FOSS crap -- thanks to the ICCCM saying that the WM is the king, and apps are shit that should obey what the WM says. That is, apps should position their windows etc. as the user user says through their choice of WM, intead of how the developer of every different piece of software thought. In most other operating systems applications manage their own windows, and something like Ion is not very feasible -- without awful kludges.

OTOH, many applications these days ignore the ICCCM and expect the WM to do what they tell to it -- and start a fight over window sizes, for example -- and FDO's (fasci^Wfreedesktop.org) new highly non-abstract WIMPshit-specific standards also make it all the time more difficult for alternative WMs to cooperate with programs expecting their shit.

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