Why is it so hard to get basic sound working on Linux? And by basic I mean I want to be able to watch porn and play an mp3 to cover the sounds at at the same time. Or I want to be able to play iTunes inside a windows VMware VM and hear my mail notifier on my host tell me that one of you has written another asshat comment.
And don't tell me "it works now!" Because it doesn't. I just tried it.
The number of moving parts in Linux's audio stack is just plain inexcusable. OSS, ALSA, dmix, esd, arts, pulseaudio, jack, nas. On top of that you have libraries that that can talk to one or many of these systems: libaio, libasound, phonon, gstreamer. And why have KDE and Gnome for the past 10 years not been able to agree on how to play sound, or configure sound? Linux is about choice right? What if I choose something other than KDE or Gnome? do I lose? Is my only choice to have someone earfuck me so hard that I go deaf and I don't have to worry about it anymore? Maybe what they meant to say is Linux is only ready for my grandma, because she can't hear anything anyway?
Each of these systems and libraries probably had some reason to be created. But you know what, fuck those reasons, because whatever they added or fixed, they certainly broke more. And after 10 years, we still don't have a baseline that works for me. I don't think I'm asking for much here. Works for you? Sweet dude. That really makes me feel better about having to listen to my case fans. It gives me a glimmer of hope that I could spend three more weekends trying to get it to work.
Why do I care if my sound system can add arbitrary filters and effects to my system ding? (And for the record, some Creative card way back when could do this on Windows, the first one based on the EMU101K. I made my computer sound like it was in a sewer tunnel. It was totally awesome. Then 10 minutes later I turned it off and wondered why I spent an extra $30 on that feature) Why do I care if I can stream sound over to another computer if a program can't make a sound in under 100ms from when it needs to on my own machine?
And please, if you're gonna tell me about emulation layers, don't. I know all about them. Anyone who has tried to program anything will know that emulation layers always suck. You always lose something. For example the OSS to alsa emulation layer makes dmix not work. Sweet, why did I want ALSA again? So I could bang my head on the wall trying to figure out it's programming language-like config file? And besides, where's my OSS to phonon layer? Cuz I totally need that. Don't I? I don't know anymore. Maybe I'll go crazy and start hearing sounds. Problem fixed.
Wednesday, June 4, 2008
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61 flames:
The situation goes like this:
Developer A: Oh, all those sound drivers / emulation layers / servers sucks. I can start create a better one. Better than all of them. But indeed, compatibility is important. So emulation layers for some of them should be done.
One year later.
Developer B: Oh no. All sound library sucks. Some unstable, some aren't compatible with others. I'll go ahead and work on one myself, should be better than everything else. And I'll try to persuade all desktops and applications to use my driver.
One year later.
Developer C: Oh no. All sound drivers and libraries sucks. Not to mention those older ones, even newer ones sucks too. Developer B's stuff is still premature to be used, Developer A's library is simply too slow. I'll go ahead and create something more responsive and have better emulation layer than everything else.
One year later.
.......
You forgot to talk about the lack of drivers for really popular sound cards.
Creative X-Fi, released back in 2005, still don't have decent working drivers for Linux...
By the way, GStreamer is not a sound layer, it's a cross-platform multimedia framework. Phonon OTOH, seems to be just another shitty abstractation layer, there was absolutely no need for it.
Ofcourse you do realize that oss emulation layer works with dmix, heard of a little thing called aoss have you? its all over the net, and if you had spent just 1/100th the time you spent writing this article, you would have seen it.
You also seem to miss the point about all those things you claim..
I run a system, no pulseaudio, no esd, no arts, no oss, no crap, and guess what? it works. And guess another thing? it would for you too.
@triton: "Creative X-Fi, released back in 2005, still don't have decent working drivers for Linux..."
And how is that GNU/Linux fault? Maybe you should email Creative, don't you think?
@ Kasper Sandberg:
"I run a system, no pulseaudio, no esd, no arts, no oss, no crap, and guess what? it works. And guess another thing? it would for you too."
THANKS FOR THAT WONDERFUL HOWTO! At least if we *have* to deal with all this BS atm, you could tell us how to avoid all that hassle! HELL! Ubuntu might adopt your Super, mega, awesome, ZOMG it's coming at me solution if it's really all that and 10 bags of fucking potato chips.
Kill yourself, please.
Sound + Linux = CLUSTERFUCK
It's true that sound under Linux can be quite a pain. Still, it's gotten better:
- you don't have to concern yourself with OSS anymore, as most cards now have an ALSA driver
- recent desktop managers can make use of ALSA directly, instead of using dsound or arts
so, if you try a recent distro, you should be able to get playback right away; if you don't, updating ARTS may just do the trick.
Unfortunately you are right that some people should know better than adding an extra, untested, layer over ALSA: pulseaudio is a nice concept (add a dummy alsa peripheral, control volume at an application level). Luckily, you can disable it...
But then, I remember the 'fun' I had with Windows to get some sound support for a DOS app under Windows 2000/XP.
So, no OS is really free from that problem.
I wonder why you let pulseaudio get away so easily ... it's not just about the added latency it introduces, but it just simply does not work at all. If I was getting one cent per "couldnt connect to sound server" message, I'd be a very rich person by now ...
Nah, dude, you got it all wrong:
The number of moving parts in Linux's audio stack is just plain inexcusable. OSS, ALSA, dmix, esd, arts, pulseaudio, jack, nas. On top of that you have libraries that that can talk to one or many of these systems: libaio, libasound, phonon, gstreamer.
This is how KDE4 can do it:
ALSA is at the bottom and also does oss emulation, on top of which sits pulseaudio, which does esd emulation for crappy old stuff, so there's two layers there. On top of pulseaudio can be gstreamer, which makes a third layer, and phonon can use gstreamer as an output, making four layers.
See, quite simple, ALSA-PulseAudio-GStreamer-Phonon. Of course you're never going to have any sound issues whatsoever, it's got four really smart layers in there that all just work together by design. Unless you want surround sound, never ever try setting that up without lots of trial-and-error and without using the command line.
Oh, BTW, don't ever try using Flash 9, it makes Firefox crash due to audio stuff.
Oh, and if you actually want to find pulseaudio useful, you have to install a few extra apps.
Oh, and if you want to play games, you might want to restart your computer afterwards, otherwise sound isn't gonna work.
Oh, and if you remote desktop in, make sure you know how to redirect sound... not that anyone does...
Oh, and don't ever, ever, try to play an MP3 or a DVD unless you have admin privileges and can install the right packages. Good thing no one uses Linux in a locked-down corporate environment.
Oh and if you're in the US or a number of other countries, don't watch a DVD under Linux. It's illegal to do so unless you pay a licensing fee.
[Anonymous said...
triton: "Creative X-Fi, released back in 2005, still don't have decent working drivers for Linux..."
And how is that GNU/Linux fault? Maybe you should email Creative, don't you think?]
Actually due to increasing criticism, Creative released a data sheet, specs and handed over the source to their 64-bit linux driver to linux developers. OSS in turn delivered support for the X-fi card (long before Alsa even started developing one I might add). And Finally as of April 2008, Creative has released 32-bit Alsa drivers(beta however).
A lot of people blame Creative for their lack of linux support but I really can't blame them when you consider how small of a market it is to them. The effort they've put in is probably proportionate to the amount of users. They obviously did assign the task to one of their developers to do some work towards it. Meanwhile the support team at Creative is probably wondering why all these linux users bought their card, which has nothing on the box about linux drivers/support.
Sound is a total mess in Linux, so I can hardly blame them for not wanting to support it. Alsa works, but just. As an experiment, go install the OSS 4 drivers, which were developed as closed source but recently opened up due to popular demand. Now why would you want to use OSS since some applications don't even support and the Linux kernel maintainers yanked in-kernel support for it? You probably don't. Unless you want your music library to sound good and clear and want some mixing capability that works, oh and pulse audio ceases to be relevant since ossxmix can mix each app as a seperate stream.
Yes, it looks like we never even needed Alsa in the first place. It's whole creation and development was political based, just because everyone got offended that 4front decided to develop their next release in house as a closed source product, and maybe even try to survive as a company and turn a small profit. Even though they've now opened their source again, they are snubbed. Linux sound is just a complete mess. Almost as bad as windows, except windows has about 10,000 more developers working through the hiccups and delivering solutions for ASIO support vs. directsound or a3d fake surround dilemmas. Creative is actually still one of the only consumer hardware developers getting it right cause they build cards that actually do the work in the hardware. They have developed their own ASIO driver for applications like Cubase and Nuendo. I can use my x-fi for 5.1 sound design and mixing for feature-length films (and I have) with the greatest of ease on my XP workstation. Show me another consummer card as good. Better yet, show me one that works on Linux. Oh, and then port me a proper application that compares with Pro-tools, Logic, or Nuendo.
What is sad in the case of sound is that the sound hardware itself hasn't evolved since years (whereas videocards have evolved very fast), so this is purely a software issue..
and
@ renoX:
Do you know what you are talking about?
Full-duplex used to be a premium and now it's the defacto in even the cheapest card. And did you ever try to buy a 5.1 sound card in the late 90's or early 2000's? Didn't think so.
How about the advancements in USB audio devices?
Don't forget Digital in/out that is now a standard option on some of the most basic sound cards.
How about a card that can record at 24-bit? They been around since the days of ISA soundblasters, have they?
No, Renox, they have not. And you should do at least a bit of elementary research before commenting on things you know nothing about.
Sound hardware has advanced significantly. But nonetheless, you need drivers and software to access that hardware. Just like your advanced 3d graphics card.
Works for me.
I've been using Linux on countless PCs, servers and laptops since 1996 and not had any sound problems. I'm currently using Ubuntu, pulseaudio and Adobe's shitty Flash plugin, without any sound issues. What the fuck are you retards smoking? Jesus.
Hmm...
Do ya considered buy an stereo or wallkman - even an iPod - turn off those linux sound shitters and get back to work listening that gadget ?
Well, it was my choice, when a sickoze was bsoding around, stucked in buggy sound driver, wich there is no hope at all in somebody fix it for me.
At least my tunes didn't stop playing when I was waiting for those insidious reboot.
You know, I really needed to read this. I use Ubuntu, and the whole sound situation is a complete fucking mess. I find myself switching between Alsa and Pulse every week or so just because something breaks in Pulse or something doesn't work with Pulse, or vice-versa. And occasionally it just gives up the ghost and stops working entirely.
From what I read about PulseAudio the first I heard about it, it was supposed to be a drop-in replacement for ALSA and OSS. But no.
At least right now, Linux sound = clusterfuck.
"I mean I want to be able to watch porn and play an mp3 to cover the sounds at at the same time."
As usual with Linux apps, the technology is there, but you'll have hard time finding it :-( Just choose 'null' as the audio driver of your media player...
Its funny to see how people try to switch between ALSA and PulseAudio.
You do realize that ALSA is the driver-stuff messing with your hardware and PulseAudio is some software that runs on top?
So I'd really like to see how you switch your sound system to PulseAudio.
After you did that, please replace Win32 with MFC will you?
"I've been using Linux on countless PCs, servers and laptops since 1996 and not had any sound problems. I'm currently using Ubuntu, pulseaudio and Adobe's shitty Flash plugin, without any sound issues. What the fuck are you retards smoking? Jesus."
You're lying.
Doh, seen this too late to really contribute meaningfully but here's a link to the classic Linux Sound Jungle post complete with diagram where someone asks "what Linux sound system should we support" (the answer(s) that came back? Seemingly all of them).
If you foresee having to spend 3 more weeks just to get sound working on Linux, that's a clear indication you simply don't even know what you hate.
"You do realize that ALSA is the driver-stuff messing with your hardware and PulseAudio is some software that runs on top?"
Well will someone please explain exactly what the fuck I need PulseAudio for.
(one month later...)
Nothing?
sudo apt-get remove pulseaudio
The Realtek HD Audio Driver that ships standard with Dell computers these days can do the sewer tunnel thing. On any sound card. And it works.
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I've been struggling with sound on Lunix for about 11 years, and in my opinion the situation is worse now than a few years ago. So much for progress...
Amongst other annoyances, this was my main reason to switch to a Mac last month. And I still don't feel like looking back.
Lunix advocates allways mention choice as a major selling point but to me Lunix is more about chaos.
Lunix is nice for dedicated machines and embedded stuff but as long as the community doesn't get its act together they should really forget about taking over the desktop.
F**k them for wasting my time.
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