Sunday, July 13, 2008

Feel the source

A good majority of the FOSS crowd seems to argue that distributing source code is always a great thing. Well I'm here to say that it's not all peaches and cream. The OSS convention of primarily distributing source code packages has many downsides that nobody seems to want to talk about.

First and foremost, the OSS model forces downstream projects to make decisions that should be made by upstream developers. What are those decisions? for example, which compiler should be used? what compiler flags should be used? what versions of libraries should something be built against? When compiling software for distribution, there are many such secondary decisions that need to be made. It makes a whole lot of sense for these decisions to be made by those who wrote the code, i.e. the upstream developers. But in the innovative Linux world, most of the decisions are made downstream, at the distro level, by people who don't really understand the code but know how to make an rpm. Even if they are somewhat familiar with the code, surely, the original authors of the code know more. Yet these package maintainers are the ones making these crucial decisions that can affect the performance and stability of the final product. This isn't freedom of choice. This is giving other people the freedom to fuck things up.

Number two. Source distribution dilutes upstream testing efforts. Any software tester knows that as far as testing and QA is concerned, different binaries are effectively different test cases. Each time a downstream project patches a program's code, or compiles it in a different way, they're essentially creating a fork of the code. This instantly undermines all of the testing that was done by the upstream project. Even fossclowns can see that this can cause problems. In the most obvious cases, you end up with something like the Debian OpenSSL debacle. In the more subtle cases, you get end users reporting problems because the distribution used a compilation flag that the upstream developers didn't test, or because they used a different library version than what was on the developer's box when he did a svn commit. They said FOSS would be better because it gets globally distributed testing of shared code. In actuality, everyone is testing slightly different binary translations of the shared code, so any benefit is effectively spread across these many variations.

A simultaneous effect: source code distribution also causes duplication of effort downstream. We've already seen that every distro has to do everything themselves in their own way, and that surely includes to solving all the same problems that every other distro faces. Which compiler should they use? which library versions should they use? Which versions of the pieces work well together? Not only are the hundreds of distros not sharing their testing and integration efforts, they are actually duplicating those efforts many times over. So much work that can't be re-used by other distros, because everyone's configurations are different. It's a huge waste. Guess why even as the number Linux users and testers increase, the quality of distros doesn't really increase proportionally? Every new distro just adds to the waste and does all the same work as everyone else. But hey, all the work is free right?

Things aren't all rosy from the developer's point of view as well. But how can that be? I mean, developers love source code, right? Well I'm glad you asked.

One common thing you'll see with OSS libraries is that they don't come with very good documentation. It's OK though, the dev's say, since you can just read the source code. To someone who doesn't write code, that may sound just fine. Who needs docs when the code says exactly what it does right?

Wrong, unfortunately.

Let's put aside the problem that reading source code to figure out what something does already totally sucks. No, I'm saying that as far as documentation for API's go, the source code is often too specific. When a developer can see the implementation of a particular interface, he can also very easily and inadvertently start to depend on the particular characteristics of the implementation (often characteristics that the implementor didn't even intend in the first place). Source code "over-specifies" an API. The worst is when developers start depending on the bugs.*

Of course, the proper way to do this is to document your libraries and interfaces and hide the implementations. Make your assumptions clear, yada, yada. There are tons of software engineers that understand this. The problem in OSS is that having the source code serves as an excuse not to create this documentation. "Just look at the code" they say, as if its the same thing. That's where both library consumers and implementors get into trouble.

Another more mundane problem. How do developers recoup their development costs while giving all their "secret sauce" away? This issue has been debated to death in other forums, but it's still worth mentioning here. Yes, I'm tired of y'all telling me that Google made cash-money off of open source. But you know what? they're not selling software. If your goal is to produce pure software products for end users to consume, what's the business model? I'm sure someone's gonna bring up Redhat, but do you want me to go over the Redhat vs MS vs adobe revenue numbers again? In the end, while there have been some entrepreneurial successes around open source, there have been very few, if any, where a company wants to sell software itself. (And getting bought by Sun doesn't count)

Last point. The fact that open source projects mainly distribute source code actually prolongs all the problems above. If all OSS projects were to actually try to distribute binaries, they'd realize how fucked up the situation actually is (and maybe they'd even try to fix it). And if OSS devs can show that they can coordinate enough to actually distribute their own stuff in binary form, then surely commercial companies will soon learn to play along and join the fray, benefiting everyone. But I'm definitely not holding my breath.

Note that I'm not saying that source distribution doesn't have it's place. It's useful for fixing bugs, and coordinating improvements to upstream code. But too many fosstards dismiss binary distribution without acknowledging its inherent benefits. That's just ignorant.


* Note that, not having source code doesn't entirely prevent this. There are many famous examples in Win32-land where programs depend on bugs within the runtime, I claim that similar mistakes are strictly and significantly easier when source code is available.

174 flames:

Anonymous said...

A good example of why "freedom" and "choice" are ideas that should not be bandied about so recklessly.

It's a grand and nice idea, but then again Communism works fine on paper too.

Anonymous said...

"But you know what? they're not selling software."

wrong.

Anonymous said...

ohh now I remember why I subscribed to this blog ....

thanks a lot and keep up the good argumentative - geeky - cynical posts against linux ... please don't go back ...

@anonymous :
Google sells Software as a service. Very Very rarely do they actually sell actual fucking software and when they do they fuck that up no end . Google Web Accelerator , Google Enterprise search ?!?

Picasa and all are primarily interfaces to their main software .. the picasaweb tool .. the GTalk is an interface for the XMPP service.

(ok, picasa started off as a free piece of junk but what they ARE selling is the service , thats what they wanna make money off )


Its actually a different argument altogether that they aren't even making money of the software services ... they are ONLY making money off AdWords and that is hiding all their other fuck ups.

Homely Hobortson said...

+1 to Mark Shuttleworth for suggesting the coordination in the first place.

-10 for people bitching, not understanding the the point and technical argument, and generally being dicks going "Choice! Choice! My distro should have the choice of making things harder for software developers, choice! Choice!"

Anonymous said...

I don't feel the hate in this blog post.

Alexei said...

1. Having official binary distributions of everything sure would be nice.

2. Not every open source library out there ignores tech docs.

3. Having source to turn to as the last resort is nice.

Anonymous said...

+1 insightful, as always, LH

"It's OK though, the dev's say, since you can just read the source code. To someone who doesn't write code, that may sound just fine."

Fosstards constantly repeat a bunch of crap they heard from each other, that no competent programmer in his right mind would actually say

Alexei said...

And, yes - here's a modest proposal to kernel devs: guys, doesn't it bother you in the slightest that your state of the art engine ahem... (kernel) is used in all kinds of crappy cars (distros)?

Show us the coolness, bedazzle us, show us how it should be done. In short - show us an official ultra-stable distro. It doesn't have to have all the office apps, etc. - just a working desktop system. Really working. I mean - sound, wifi, acpi, etc. No Gnome, no KDE, just some simple WM, mkay?

I understand this is beyond the scope of the kernel project. I understand that driver guys, X guys, window manager guys must be involved, too.

But you are the wizards, right? You are the gurus, big kahunas, aren't you?

Show us the light, pretty please..
What, no? You're more interested in piloting the ship of progress, lusers must take care of themselves? I should have known.

Anonymous said...

Another +1 for Mark S., for realizing the problem and trying to solve it.

BTW:
Google isn't selling software, Google is selling YOU!

Anonymous said...

Source code is always good to have whether or not you use it that's up to you. Most distros don't include the source code when you install a program via apt, yum, etc... unless you ask for it.

Not being able to see the source for any given program leaves you in the dark about what the program actually does. Some programs have features built in to spy on the user, such as real-player and windows media player, but you would never see that. Even if you personally don't look at the code, someone is.

Documentation wise, it beats MSDN anyday.

Anonymous said...

"Show us the coolness, bedazzle us, show us how it should be done. In short - show us an official ultra-stable distro. It doesn't have to have all the office apps, etc. - just a working desktop system. Really working. I mean - sound, wifi, acpi, etc. No Gnome, no KDE, just some simple WM, mkay?"

Hmmm, all my machines have all those features. How about you show them an ultra-stable Windows system too.

Bodhibuilder said...

Someone mentioned communism and I was going to write about it too. Cause it always amazes me how the linux world can be likened to a communist state. Coming from a former communist country I have vague, childhood first hand experience of it. You got this official propaganda, that goes something like this: We are the land of freedom and people's power, and they the land of exploitation and slavery driven by greed. Even though we our developement is staggering, and the whole thing is collapsing we invent this bullshit statistics to show that we are in fact doing better and better. It doesn't matter that prices are going up and there is less food in shops, because in fact we are doing well but you can't see that yet cause we're in the process of it (still in beta). In the news we show only our achievements and enemy's failrues. If someone criticises us, we immediatelly accuse him of being a spy and spreading propaganda (FUD). And the enemy is constantly watching and spying on us, desperately seeking to undermine our glorious progress. Even if we somehow admit that capitalists do something well we explain that it is due to exploitation, unethical practices and global conspiracy. Our progress is in fact more designed to show off than to do anything good (take soviet space and nuclear race - it is a terrible waste of resources but it sure looks well and makes us look better ... yeah compiz pwnz aero). But no matter how bad we do we are still better, cause we give you freedom (although you can't just install a new software unless we care to make a package for you) and we fight for you against the Imperialism that is bad for you, although it gives you everything you need. Just like communism, Linux started out as a great enthusiastic movement and tremendous collective effort that looked to be extremely productive at first, and evoked high hopes. But quickly enough its flaws began to surface and it gradually collapsed into stagnation and inner power struggles. Fuck, thats just exactly like linux point by point. No wonder. It stems from the same basic idea that you can change the way the world has always been working, just because you think it is the right thing you do. As your idea is completely incompatible with reality you fail more and more and end up being worse than your enemy.

thecodewitch said...

It seems to me that if you are going to offer the source code for your app, you ought to provide all the binaries of the libraries it links to (static or dynamic), and requisite headers. Do any less, and its as though you don't really want anybody to build from your source. Nothing I hate more than chasing down all these pissy little tools and libraries the author was using - supply them with the code!

This will get rid of that annoying (and I can't help feeling highly error prone) "configure" script that does hundreds of checks of your build environment.

Even if you're using Qt, I still want you to supply the libs - I would rather download another 30Mb of stuff than spend hours tracking down the right version.

To summarize - I want to download one archive of all the code + binaries of libraries + headers. After unzipping it, I only want to have to type "make", and thats it.
It shouldn't expect anything from the system (except for core binaries that all Linuxes should have... RIGHT?!?!), and shouldn't write anything anywhere. Once its built, make it clear (with a script or docs) where all the exes and data is, so I can copy it wherever I want. Now that would be a real choice.

The "configure" + "make" + "make install" process uses scripts that puts the onus on you to supply an environment it likes, then it decides where on your box its going to write itself. How is this choice? Its a pain even finding out what the fuck happened, what files were copied where. Where is the choice? Where is the Freedom(tm)?? And no, I'm not going to sift through your insane configure script and makefile trying to work it out. How about you make it as simple as possible, so any automation is automation *I* decide to put in.

thecodewitch said...

bodhibuilder: Your point by point comparison is very compelling.

Anonymous said...

"Source code is always good to have whether or not you use it that's up to you. Most distros don't include the source code when you install a program via apt, yum, etc... unless you ask for it. "

Of course you completely missed the point of LH's post.

"Not being able to see the source for any given program leaves you in the dark about what the program actually does. Some programs have features built in to spy on the user, such as real-player and windows media player, but you would never see that. Even if you personally don't look at the code, someone is."

I doubt you have access to the source for Real Player or WMP. How did you determine they spy on the user?

"Documentation wise, it beats MSDN anyday."

Documentation tells me how to use the API. Source only tells me how it does what I ask it to. If the docs suck (and some MSDN docs do suck), then yes, the source is better than nothing. But the solution is to fix the docs, not to leave the dev to decipher a bunch of code that is supposed to be saving them time by doing work for them.

Anonymous said...

//Fosstards constantly repeat a bunch of crap they heard from each other, that no competent programmer in his right mind would actually say//

I've noticed this too. It's like they all share the same brain, constantly parroting the same tired slogans. Sometimes wonder if they even believe half the crap they spew.

There's actually a radio show now completely devoted to Freedtardism. They call themselves the "Gutsy Geeks" heh. http://www.gutsygeeks.com. It's an hilarious example of FOSS group-think.

The sad thing is that these guys used to have a nice computer help oriented talk show until they drank the Freetard kool-aid and went over the cliff. Most of their sponsors have dropped them. Big surprise there...

Anonymous said...

@thecodeswitch: I couldn't agree more, I just spent an hour or two configuring a library which happens to need ten thousand other libraries in order to work. If you're going to provide the source for something, at least make it an option to provide the complete code.

tuomov said...

"Cause it always amazes me how the linux world can be likened to a communist state."

And the distros, possessing de facto central control over distribution of easily installable software, are The Party. Authors are mere faceless workers, the distros are everything. All hail the The Party!

rockmelinuxdamus said...

I've noticed this too. It's like they all share the same brain, constantly parroting the same tired slogans. Sometimes wonder if they even believe half the crap they spew

Oh they believe it. They don't understand most of it and haven't thought through most of the issues. But when they spew it and it gives them that little tingle in their loins you damn right they believe it.

Alexei said...

>> Hmmm, all my machines have all those features. How about you show them an ultra-stable Windows system too.

Hmm, maybe you should create your own distro? How long till that "works for me" attitude wears off then?

An ultra-stable Win32.. hmm, let's see.. My home pc - XP runs great. Parent's PC (my old computer = 5-6 year old Athlon 1600+ / 256 MB RAM) - smooth XP machine. At work - Win2k is fine, except that it starts slower then XP. And that crappy AV, F-Secure is a memory hog - but we've got a corporate subscription). Is that enough for you?

How come I just installed Firefox 3 on all of these and it just runs, while my colleague who has Debian on his laptop at home had to mess with new GTK? (and who knows what else)

I could drone on and on, but why bother? In short - with Win32 it just works (and yes, I know about Vista / drivers, which is why I don't bother myself with Vista). With Linux - it's RFTM for you, go and smoke man pages before you go to bed.

I think standardization is essential for Linux, not shiny translucent rotating icons.

One "official" distro.. As a standard to measure against. I guess that'll never happen. Standards are boring, let's have 10 different versions of kernel and 10 versions of glibc on top of it. And all the rest.

trickyDick said...

2Bodhibuilder

that's a good point you make comparing communism to foss. i myself was born in a communist country. what this whole thing proved again and again is that you can't make sound economic decisions without prices. there is just no way to know what is useful or productive and what is not. this is why foss seems to be in a chaotic state all the time and why things like "we don't need users" are heard across the community.

another thing is that one doesn't have many incentives to be productive as a software developer without being payed for this. so they have to go for the enthusiasm an ideology to motivate people. well that's just the thing they did in the soviet union in the fifties.

still the thing that bothers me the most about foss is their twisting of the terms. i'm speaking about this "free as in freedom thing".
first - only humans can be free. i don't think this actually needs to be elaborated upon, as clearly one needs to have free will to be free.
secondly - to define something as free you need to have an example of things that are not free to distinguish between the two. according to foss propaganda i will be less free if i may not compile the source code. well, this makes the same sence as to say i am less free cause i can not fly and that gravitation inhibits my freedom. in this sence you can find something unfree about any single thing in the universe. Hence we would not actually have something we can test things against to tell if they are free. so there is actualy no point in having even a word "free" as it would not convey any new information about the thing it is attributed to.
There is only point in defining freedom as freedom of coercion and it is usually the state which is in a posistion to excersise coercion. Well, one can be unfree because of software if someone forces him to use it. neither software alone, nor the software developers are in a position to excercise coersion, at least not in the civilized world. so well if someone lives in a country where police can come to your home and force you install vista as otherwise they send you to gulag it is surely very unfree, but blaming if on software is like blaming the bullet on killing someone. it is the institutional framework that is to blame. so concluding my rant: a piece of program code can not be free or unfree.

i took time to write all this as i think that such twisting of the terms is quiet dangerous and it is the same way american "liberals" define liberty in a very peculiar way to justify very peculiar things. sure freedom is an extremely popular concept and everyone want to have it on his side.

tuomov said...

"another thing is that one doesn't have many incentives to be productive as a software developer without being payed for this. so they have to go for the enthusiasm an ideology to motivate people. "

Productivity is orthogonal... maybe even opposed to... quality. The corporate-sponsored FOSScracy of paid elite developers can be productive, but they produce shit. Quick and dirty hacks for "World Domination, fast", that turn the system into a horrible complicated patchwork of kludges upon kludges. Not a moment's thought is given to simple, flexible, consistent design. Not that MS manages it either. The result is "either you're one of us developers, or you're an idiot user". That is, you either have to succumb into using Linux as an idiot box with no user-configurable parts inside, as provided by the distros, or you have to teach yourself into a developer, to change anything.

Anonymous said...

"I doubt you have access to the source for Real Player or WMP. How did you determine they spy on the user?"

It was reverse engineering and tools like wireshark that can figure this stuff out. If your machine is sending out packets when you have nothing open wouldn't that be somewhat strange. Anyways you can look this shit up. It's sad really, but true.

Anonymous said...

"It's a grand and nice idea, but then again Communism works fine on paper too."

Anti-competitive practices don't look good anywhere.

BlackSheep said...

Anonymous said:
«It's a grand and nice idea, but then again Communism works fine on paper too.»

Unless it's voluntary, how is controlling everyone for the "greater good" not a creepy idea? Some greek philosophers argued for slavery on such grounds. If it is voluntary, like FOSS, it is perfectly compatible with laissez-faire.

Anyway, what I wanted to point out is that Communism doesn't work in paper at all. Even if you assume that everyone is happy to be a serf of the state, one big issue with socialism is the Calculation Problem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculation_problem
Lacking a price structure, what socialists as the Soviet states did was to feed their models with prices of the west. ;)
There is actually a story about Mikhail Gorbachev's press secretary that when asked what his dream for mankind was, he replied that he wished to see all of the world embrace socialism, except for New Zealand. "Why not New Zealand?" he was asked. "Well," he responded, "we need someone to get the prices from."
Some assumed to be socialists like the German Nazis were actually mostly fascists (corporatism in economics). They didn't actually own most businesses in paper, but they had vast regulations and controls over production and consumption. Socialism murders itself after it lives off of prior capital accumulation; corporatism is regarded as more efficient in general, and modern states have a lot of elements of it.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous: "It was reverse engineering and tools like wireshark that can figure this stuff out. If your machine is sending out packets when you have nothing open wouldn't that be somewhat strange. Anyways you can look this shit up. It's sad really, but true."

Which proves that you don't need the source code to understand what the app does; therefore, this ridiculous concept that "freedom" is associated solely with possessing source code is a canard being sold to (and by) rubes.

Anonymous said...

@trickydick

That was a brilliant post, my friend. I'm glad you're among capitalists now. ;-)

Anonymous said...

Linux Dweebs,

I have bad news. Your time is running out. You were supposed to be the next generation OS that takes down all of the proprietary OSes. Turns out, you were yesterday's OS, and you're actually losing market share compared to OSX and Windows. Don't care, you say? Doesn't matter? Well, you should care, because the software industry thrives on buzz. And they've already realized that all of this unadulterated fanboy nonsense that you've been trying to sell (Linux is better, cheaper, faster, safer, free-er, etc) is a load of crap. It's none of those things. The dotcoms are dead; money is no longer chasing the charlatans who put "Linux" in their business plans; the pimple-faced idealists are getting tired of living in their parents' basements while Google, Red Hat, and others ass-rape them for their free labor (seriously, talk about dumb fucks--you've gotta hand it to Google for having the foresight to exploit them); there are still NO fucking decent games on Linux, nearly a decade after people started trying to write fucking games on Linux; the "Community" can't get its shit together enough to produce a single universal reference distro that everything "just works" on -- everyone just gives up and creates YET ANOTHER FUCKING DISTRO (as if that's going to solve the original problem, you dumb motherfuckers).

Welcome to freedom, ass-wipes: Freedom from intelligence. Freedom from sound development practices. Freedom from getting anything meaningful done (unless you consider spending days reading man pages getting something done). Freedom from reality.

You're running out of time. The kids are growing up and trying to get out of daddy's basement. They're tired of not getting laid, not getting any respect, having to drive POS junkers -- and Stallman's lame-ass "freedom" propaganda ain't cutting it. Hey, Stallman, shove that Genius Grant right up your ass, next to your brain.

WE ARE *NIXED! said...

It's actually good that you're bringing up issues of coding and programming. However, I do have a question for you. How much experience with Linux-based systems do you have? It appears that you know more than what you're letting on.

Also, I've managed to get a good number of distributions up and running on a good number of machines in the past, so the development methods can't be all bad, right?

Anonymous said...

Linuxs' time already ran out, 10 years ago.

Anyone who got good enough skills is using them to earn a living. What FOSS is left with is the second and third rate developers nobody else wanted to hire.

FOSS is dead.

Nothing to see here, move along.

Peterix said...

Bullshit.
Distributing binaries for all the distros that ever existed is the last thing I want to do as a developer. I won't be making debian, rpm or whatever packages are 'the thing' right now. Nor will I waste my time learning to do so.
``Another more mundane problem. How do developers recoup their development costs while giving all their "secret sauce" away?''
There are no secrets. There won't be any secrets. Secrets are BAD. If you can't understand that, you have no business talking about Free Software.
I agree with the documentation part. Testing/patching - not so much.
And calling people 'fossclowns' won't win you any friends.

Go back to Windows and stop trying to turn Linux into the same kind of fugly binary mess.

WE ARE *NIXED! said...

If FOSS was dead, then why is the New York Stock Exchange using it? Why are parts of the US Government, especially the military, using it?

LIS said...

Because it's cheap and locked down.

The FOSS whore is being fucked yet again. Why are you surprised?

WE ARE *NIXED! said...

@lis,

How is FOSS cheap and locked down? Or were you responding to me in the first place?

LIS said...

@we are
Linux is Cheap, as in Free.
Linux is also locked down, since the end user cannot change anything about it.
If you mean server use, then hell, why not. Solaris will give better performance, FreeBSD is more secure, but Linux is also usable.

I'm sorry for not being more specific - FOSS is dead on the desktop, FOSS is dead as a development model, FOSS is dead for anything creative and innovative. FOSS is only good for usage in the classical unix role - the most basic of servers.

Platypus said...

I'm surprised that you didn't dwell more on my pet peeve with OSS: the stupid idea that just because users have source the developers never have to fix anything. As hard as reading or building others' source code without causing breakage might be, trying to fix bugs in it is an order of magnitude worse. At best, you get something that works, or at least seems to, but the patch is rejected upstream because they're in the middle of the seventh spurious rewrite this year. When the results of that rewrite come down you'll have to re-reverse-engineer it to make the fix again, then re-test from scratch. Lather, rinse, repeat, and ditto for every other distro or local maintainer whose users are complaining. Roughly the same problem affects the core cabal themselves, as they all work at best in isolation and at worst at cross-purposes and have to re-do stuff all the time because everybody's trying to win the patch-submission race. Even some of the best and best-known kernel developers have disengaged out of frustration at this.

BTW, since somebody asked (in another thread) about the people who comment here, yes, I do work on open source. My company sells some pretty neat hardware which happens to run Linux as its OS. Therefore we have to maintain what amounts to our own distro, from kernel and (highly specialized) drivers through compilers up to "ls" and such - all on one of the least common and least maintained CPU architectures, so lots of stuff that "just works" on x86 fails miserably on our systems. Some of that is just what we're paid to do, of course, and nothing to whine about. My pet peeve, which I might blog about shortly, is the fact that in FOSS there's no architectural leadership worthy of the name. Even the biggest of the Linux heavyweights, like Linus or Ted or Andrew Morton and so on, don't really function as architects. They're extraordinarily productive and brilliant individual developers, which they have proven many times, but that's not the same thing. Things that require somebody in such a role, that cut across many subsystems and/or require a whole-system view to do right, don't get done or get done poorly. A lot of RAS features such as logging/tracing, hot-swapping components, etc. serve as examples. I'm no DTrace fanboi, Bryan Cantrill has even called me a jackass in public and I think even less of him, but this lack in the Linux world is why all that Sun crap gains any traction at all. For all of its flaws, at least their stuff is *coherent* and they don't duplicate every effort ten times over.

LIS said...

And this is why, FOSS has died.

It's useless beyond being cheap.

@platypus
wouldn't your company be better off using something that actually works, like vxWorks? you'll even get substantial performance boost
http://fixunix.com/vxworks/331795-linux-vs-vxworks.html
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?tp=&arnumber=4448543&isnumber=4448435

dingo said...

I agree 100%.

Open source isn't completely at loss, however. One of the BSD distributions have a strict requirements that everybody run the same kernel configuration, recommending even that bugs must be reproducable with their binary kernel and userlands to be filed -- with the exception of bugs exposed in recent -current cvs changes.

In a small development team like this, it is crucial that the bug reports they DO receive, are for kernels they built and packaged themselves, so that they are not wasting time duplicating the end-user's development. This philosophy follows throughout the entire distribution, and in addition to a regular release schedule, and a "fix it or pull it out" lock-down period of the source tree, the end-users receive a pleasantly stable distribution that extends as far out as the ports tree. For minor bugs or issues, it also allows a large portion of a small user community to exactly reproduce each other's environments, with the exception of particular hardware devices.

loadable kernel modules are disabled by default, and everybody runs the distributed kernel for their architecture that has only drivers known to work for that architecture enabled. I've experienced linux machines running corner architectures like pa-risc or powerpc that require the user to custom build and put up with having an environment that very very few other people can reproduce. It was necessary, for instance, for me to resolve syntax errors for the vanilla kernel to compile for a SGI machine.

In the BSD community, it is as simple as a relatively inexperienced user reporting, "Firefox crashes on my sparc64 in version N.N" on the mailing list, and other sparc64 users can confirm reliably that "yahoo.com crashes out on my powerpc too", allowing those users who have the equipment and expertise to quickly build firefox in debug mode on that architecture and file an accurate, reproducible bug report that can be resolved.

That the kernel compiles on said architecture without fail is relieving after dealing with similar hardware using linux!

The "do what thou wilt" freedom-pushing linux model leads to specialization and little help to people who could otherwise help improve the stability of device drivers in non-i386/amd64 architectures. You'll file your kernel crash report for an arm architecture to the distribution that packaged it, who have little to do with kernel development, and a very small user discussion or process with little to no visibility to several other communities of linux distributions running on arm, and absolutely no visibility to the authors of the device driver in question, if even reachable!

This poor process often results in confused users replying to 2-year old posts with "me too, while running libraries: (XXX*20), kernel version 56-weeks-ago, in distribution (pick 1 of the above 7), patched by 50-to-100-custom-patches. And nobody else in the world with enough resources to reproduce it reliably.

This specialization means that low income server operations find recycling an old Sun Netra T1 to linux to cost more valuable time and resources that would have been better spent purchasing a sun service contract.

End result? Linux users are forced to play with knobs, scripts, hacks, and consult google, while admins work an extra-long night fighting with recompiling and mixing revisions.

The rest of us just use computers for solving problems at home, and the other admins go home early.

The freedom to get home before sundown is more important to some than the freedom to tailor the hell out of software as a necessary means for reliability.

Platypus said...

@lis: In a word, no, something like vxWorks would not work for us. The main reason is that what OS we use is visible to our highly technical customer base, so they'd completely reject such a solution even if the software they need ran on it (it doesn't). In fact, many of our customers like our system specifically because we do ship source and they can tweak the system however they please - which some have done, and to good effect - and would not have bought it otherwise. At my last job, where the OS was embedded in an appliance we sold, an embedded OS might well have been a better choice (modulo some driver issues).

My rant is not really that F/L/OSS is so bad, but that (a) it's not nearly as good as it could/should be, and therefore (b) it's not the panacea that so many of its proponents claim it to be. Linux has its place, Solaris has its place, vxWorks has its place, even Windows has its place. Just about every piece of software, free or proprietary, sucks sometimes. The difference is the hype. I tweak the "flosstards" (a harsher term than I'd usually employ) not because of what they produce but because of how they talk about it.

P.S. I should've included Blogger as one of the pieces of software that sucks (in a comment-eating or perhaps false-feedback-giving kind of way) as well.

Alexei said...

>> One of the BSD distributions have a strict requirements that everybody run the same kernel configuration..

Which BSD do you specifically have in mind? Just curious.

Pi said...

I love how this entire article is inaccurate! First off If you knew anything about distro's you'd know that most distro's just don't randomly package crap off and send it up. First off, the upstream developers DO make the requirements for the software. Especially for libs and sometimes compile flags. For example you cannot compile slashem in parallel you need to make it serial compilation IE makeopts cannot be anything but -j1. Next it's nice to notice that most distro's don't just throw in the latest upgrade onto their users. Most first test the new upgrades and things it affects. Or they ask the developers. You obviously have no idea how the structure of linux works to even be complaining about things like this.

Lastly, you bitch and moan about how omg you can CHOOSE DIFFERENT COMPILERS. TEH HORRARRR! Yeah okay, so a portable system is the worst thing in the world right? Just because in proprietary land you might not want me to make your software work on say an embedded device without paying you extra doesn't mean the same for linux.

Yet again this blog doesn't understand anything.

Alex Chudnovsky said...

LH,
I can't help agreeing with you.
It's not (only) the code that counts, but the architecture.
Given enough time and effort, you can reverse-engineer the architecture from the code, but most chances are you'll get it wrong. Still, that leaves you the possibility to make small fixes here and there, or port the software to some new platform provided that you undertake testing and maintaining it on that platform (and have the resources for that, of course).

Alex Chudnovsky said...

@pi :
"Lastly, you bitch and moan about how omg you can CHOOSE DIFFERENT COMPILERS. TEH HORRARRR! Yeah okay, so a portable system is the worst thing in the world right?"
One simple question: who is going to fix bugs in some software if the original developer isn't familiar with the particular compiler chosen by the distro? Correct, the distro builder. Is the distro builder familiar with the architecture ( i.e. what the program is intended to do and how it is intended to function)of the software as good as the original developer? Probably not. So, in case of the fix being non-trivial, the things will either require very good coordination and teamwork or get real bad...

Roman Werpachowski said...

@all who say binary=bad, source=good

There is a strong reason why software should be distributed in binary form.

Because it reduced coupling.

Let me explain. A "coupling" between two pieces of code A and B is when you can't change X in A without breaking Y in B. Developers rightly do not like coupling and try to avoid it, creating modular systems, which are easier to debug, maintain and evolve.

If you distribute your program -- library or application -- as a binary, it forces you to provide an API and forces developers linking their code with yours to follow this API. If, on the other hand, you distribute source code, then you have no API at all -- everybody can use whatever part of your code they like. Which creates much more coupling than if you actually had an API.

This may not be a problem initially, but will be if your library becomes popular and people start depend on some features of it which you never meant to expose to the world. Then, you have two choices:
a) change the features and break someone's app and make them angry
b) do not change them, invent workarounds and watch your system turn into a ball of mud.

If you still don't understand what's the point, ponder on why such thing like Maven was created?

a .net jerk-face said...

Google isn't a company that makes its profits from open source. Its profits come from a highly secretive search algorithm that happens to run on servers that use open source. If needed google could switch to win servers and still have lucrative profits.

Speaking of open source profits, has canonical been able to make one yet? You know open source advocates are full of sh#t when the creator of the largest distribution can't break even. The irony of course is that Mark made his millions by starting a proprietary company during the .com boom.

Programming is difficult and trying to make a profit while showing your secrets to others makes about as much sense as Coke printing their recipe on the can.

I have suspected for a long time that the most vocal floss advocates are not programmers but losers who find identity and meaning in an collectivist movement. It is nice to see that not everyone has a slashdot view of the software world. This blog is mana from heaven for me. Keep it up.

blackbelt_jones said...

"I don't feel the hate in this blog post."

Do you consider that that a good thing or a bad thing? It can't tell.

I hate the fact that I'm actually going to have to read this, and think about the very serious points you seem to be making. Fuck you, Linux Hater's Blog!

WE ARE *NIXED! said...

@lis,

How is FOSS dead if I myself am running it? How is it dead when there are companies out there that do have support for individuals, small businesses, etc...?

See: http://www.fixedbylinux.com

Heck, I have an even better question: Why is Dell selling desktop and notebook systems that run Ubuntu?

See: http://www.dell.com/ubuntu

@.net jerk face

Man, who are you, Rob Enderle? It amazes me how some want to continually equate FOSS with communism. There is a vast difference, however. People in FOSS are there because they wish to be, and they genuinely like to improve the vast many projects out there. Is it perfect? No, but then again, what is perfect? Even Apple computers break every now and then (look it up on YouTube).

Let me ask a simple question for those who downplay or outright ignore Google's use of FOSS. Why do you think they use it? I'm fairly certain that the cost of licensing for Windows was not very appealing to them. In fact, how many of you here have read any of the End User License Agreements from Microsoft concerning network connectivity? Limits are placed on how many clients can connect to a server, and so on and so forth. With *nix-based systems, there are no such restrictions.

Some have mentioned the OpenSSL issue. How quickly was that fixed compared to the Windows Metafile vulnerability in NT-based systems (NT 4 through XP)? Hint: it took over a year for Microsoft to even respond, and guess what? It didn't have the feel of some bug... it was an actual feature! That's right! A feature, as in a picture file executing programming code!

The fact that the blogger in question (who never reveals a name, alias, or anything of the sort... oh well, they're within their rights to do so) is complaining that FOSS supporters don't conform to a single way of doing things is ironic in the fact that many responses have equated FOSS with communism. Communism was a method of forced conformity. Yet FOSS is non-conformist. Ironic indeed.

LIS said...

@we are
I've got a perfectly serviceable BeOS machine dual booting win2k somewhere around the house. It is perfectly serviceable, running Firefox, IM kit, GoBe productive, using Jukebox for music, VLC for movies, and thunderbird for email.
There's an active development community:
http://www.bebits.com/

That's very close to what I can use Linux for, btw, and is ~95% of what "regular" users do.

BeOS is still dead as the Dodo, and nothing is probably going to change that.

Same goes with Linux.

Dell does not SELL Ubuntu PCs, they simply offers them.. the sales figure is closer to 20,000 machines, which is a minuscule amout - it's not even in the statistical error margin for Dell (which ships ~10m machines per year).

Comparing Linux to Communism - when doing metaphorical comparisons, it's impossible to have an equivalent to each aspects of the two elements being compared.
It's like using a car metaphor for describing a computer, and dismissing it as bogus since computers have no tires.
Diverting the argument with syntactics is a common FOS zealots tactic, and you've just failed by using it.
(Linux is a kernel, gnu/linux, etc are cut from the same cloth).

The openSSL debacle is not any less serious because the competition had bugs. Technically, it's far worse than the browser bug, because it allows remote exploitation of the machine WITHOUT needing any user-mode software running.
Ideologically, it shows that the development model of FOSS does not guarantee, nor provides, any advantage over the propriety model, since non of the many hypothetical eyeballs was able to find it all this years.

Free software is Dead or dying, get used to it.

Bodhibuilder said...

How is FOSS dead if I myself am running it?
No, really? Then, Egor, it's alive, it's alive, it's alive!

Communism was a method of forced conformity.
No, it became that, when communists rose to power. Before that it was entirely voluntary intellectual movement.

People in FOSS are there because they wish to be, and they genuinely like to improve the vast many projects out there.
Shit, man. There are communist parties in western countries where people sign in, because they want to. Does that make them less communist? But believe me, if freetards had their way, I bet they would prohibit the GUI and dragged everybody back to the command line. Thankfully just as communist parties in the west, they are not really a threat. Well, Hans Reiser excluded.

Is it perfect? No, but then again, what is perfect?
Wow, I hear this bullshit argument all around lately. At least they stopped claiming that it's perfect, only the people are too stupid for it. But now they got another golden argument: We suck? Ok, so what, everything sucks, doesn't it? Well, thats the way to justify and defend anything.

And those idiots always mention servers. It's like saying that private cars should run on rails because all trains do. Althought, technically servers and desktops are both computer units they are two completely different things, and the fact that something is good at one does not mean it doesn't suck at the other.
Still, Apache's use on severs has been dropping down for some time and is now below 50% and MS is breathing on it's neck. Considering the fact that one is free and the other is costy, says it all. After all, at the end of the day people choose an OS that suits them the most. The only problem with you, freetards is that it somehow occured to you that the sole reason of MS popularity is their advertising power, so you decided to praise Linux wherever and whenever you can, imagining that somehow you can put a magic spell on reality.

WE ARE *NIXED! said...

@lis

I noticed how you never addressed the first link I gave. Interesting.

And yes, Dell does sell systems that happen to have Ubuntu pre-installed. They have three notebooks and a single desktop model with Ubuntu 7.10. If you meant they weren't really marketing those products with Ubuntu on them, then you'd be correct.

Your BeOS system isn't dead if you're still running it. The company may be long gone or have ultimately stopped sellingg the product, but if it is in use, then it isn't dead. The same could be said for DOS itself.

I also find it interesting that "FOSS is dead" changed to "FOSS is dead or dying." Which is it, because it can't be both? If you truly believe such, then why are you running applications that in many cases, are FOSS? Why not pick between Windows or OS X?

I'm afraid your counterpoint for my refuting the use of referring to FOSS as communistic was weak in and of itself. Comparing both concepts in their entirety is completely and utterly useless, which was the whole point of my response concerning such comparrisions in the first place. Certain characteristics can give helpful insight, but that's about it. Stallinistic style movements often involve forced conformity. What is often seen with the Linux kernel and other projects is that there is no forced conformity. If someone wants to make a fork of the Linux kernel aimed for a specific purpose, they are perfectly within their rights to do so.

WE ARE *NIXED! said...

@Bodhibuilder,

"The only problem with you, freetards is that it somehow occured to you that the sole reason of MS popularity is their advertising power..."

Wrong. Bill Gates had some programming knowledge back in the day, but that was not his number one strength. His number one strength was understanding the human condition. He realized that technically speaking, his company would only have to be a monopoly for so long before people in general were conditioned into thinking that the Microsoft way was the best way to go (and the only way to go).

Back in the heyday of the antitrust case against Microsoft, I was against the whole thing. I was against those who opposed Microsoft and I kept thinking to myself, "They're obviously not talented enough to really compete with them, so now they're whining and crying...." My own father tried to explain why a monopoly was never a good thing, but I refused to think about it from that perspective. At least I did so until I became so curious about *nix-based systems that I eventually stumbled upon the right distribution for me for the period of time: SuSE 8.1. It just worked on my Dell Inspiron 8200 (which had 1 GB of RAM in it.... I was so thrilled when it arrived at my doorstep). From there I learned a bit more about how this "Linux thing" worked. I eventually came to realize why they called them distributions. Linux in and of itself was simply a kernel that could be used in putting together an entire operating system.

One can throw anything on top of the kernel that they wanted. Want the Windows 95 look and feel (and performance on modern hardware to boot)? Throw on X.org along with XFCE. Don't like OpenOffice.org? There's KOffice for KDE or.... For the small footprint, there's Abiword, an efficient word processor, and Gnumeric, a spreadsheet application known for its accuracy, especially concerning the calculation of statistics. Why, even you could build your own commercial operating system for use in your neck of the woods. What's stopping you? You obviously know better than everyone else what makes a piece of software good software. So the question is, are you involved in any form of programming at all?

This last tidbit is a general comment for everyone's consideration. Is the reason that one complains about "too many choices" concerning the compilation of software (i.e. different options being set for different architectures and different compilers and more) really about quality of software, or is it just another way of saying, "I'm sorry, I don't wish to think today...."? Now I understand if this blogger were to not have any skills in computer programming or have very little in the way of programming skills. I myself have very little patience for looking through lines and lines of code.

It was another blogger who to this day I do not care for due to accusations they made towards another FOSS supporter who said something that actually made sense: before understanding the IDE, understand the language first. If one is not talented on software development in the first place, then all the IDE's in the world will not save them from making a poor product, but then again, I'm digressing.

I'm curious. What would make a good operating system in anybody's opinion on this blog? I'd like to hear that for starters.

pwned_by_commies said...

Anyone happen to notice that the capitalist U.S. is getting owned (literally) by *communist* China? I'm not endorsing either one, just saying...

.net jerk-face said...


Let me ask a simple question for those who downplay or outright ignore Google's use of FOSS. Why do you think they use it?


No one is saying that Linux is never useful or cost effective. The point is that google should not be considered an open source company because the bulk of their profits come from proprietary software.


... how many of you here have read any of the End User License Agreements from Microsoft concerning network connectivity? Limits are placed on how many clients can connect to a server, and so on and so forth.


Local clients though, not internet connections. Windows web server edition is in fact only $400 so price isn't as much of an issue either.


Communism was a method of forced conformity. Yet FOSS is non-conformist. Ironic indeed.


If I want to use 10 lines of GPL code in my 100000 line program I am forced to release the entire thing under the GPL. How is that not forcing conformity? Does the FSF want a world of multiple licenses or a GPL world only?

Steve Ballmer said...

Son I like you!

Anonymous said...

DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS

WE ARE *NIXED! said...

@.net

"If I want to use 10 lines of GPL code in my 100000 line program I am forced to release the entire thing under the GPL."

Not entirely true. If the program was an internal program that was never going to be released to the public, you have nothing to worry about. Let's take it further. If you don't want to use software under the GPL, you don't have to. There's always the MIT license and FreeBSD license. Also, perhaps I should have been clear concerning the context of what I was writing. First, I fail to see how it's a bad thing to have some simple requirements from software that is GPL: If parts of it are used and released publicly, then the public must have the ability to look at the source code and make changes if they wish (of course, there are provisions in said license that would relieve the original author from any liability). Now onto the context of my writing... In the Windows world, there is generally only one way of programming. Sure, you have different compilers, different development software that assists you in making Windows apps, but ultimately, if you stray too far from Microsoft's guidelines, you can run into trouble. Take Windows Explorer for example. It's the default shell in Windows, period. It's been that way since Windows 95. Now one can install a replacement, such as LiteStep. I had a machine with Windows 98 SE on it. I decided to give LiteStep a try, and well... after playing with it, decided to go back to Explorer. Non-Microsoft shells can get rather tricky if you don't know what you're doing both as a user and a developer. Why? Because the Kernel source code for Windows is not accessible to the everyday person. In Fedora 9, one can at least pinpoint specific problems more readily (such as discovering that drivers for certain sound chips, such as Intel integrated audio, may have issues with PulseAudio) when it's discovered that sound plays too fast. Debugging tools and reverse engineering takes more time and will only go so far. For example, one of the anonymous posters here only stated that packets was sent. What information was specifically sent? How does one know if a software provider is not violating your privacy even if they state they are not? Due to lack of access to the source code, one would never really know and would have to rely entirely upon trust.

In the Windows world, fixing the kernel is out of the question for most people, because most people can not and will not be allowed access to it.

In the other world, one can do as they desire. They can either share what they did with other people or keep it to themselves so long as they do not distribute it to the public. At least that's the case with the GPL. There are other licenses out there that do allow for the making of proprietary software if those suit your fancy. In other words, nobody is pointing a gun to your head and telling you that you have to use a certain compiler only, a certain OS only, certain types of coding only. If you don't like the terms of the GPL, then don't use the coding. Plain and simple. If you don't like the fact that the author of the source code decided to share with everyone else in terms that also required those who acquired the source to never take away that opportunity, then walk away from that code, find some code that is licensed under terms you agree with, and move on. Oh, and the 10 lines of code example.... You have heard of the LGPL, right? You could have a library that is open while the rest of the software is proprietary if you so desire.

.net jerk-face said...


Not entirely true. If the program was an internal program that was never going to be released to the public you have nothing to worry about.


Stop trying to avoid my point. Of course I am talking about software that is released to the public, good god this silly pedantic crap just annoys people.

I'll re-ask the question for you:

If I want to use 10 lines of GPL code in my 100000 FREEBSD licensed program I am forced to release the entire thing under the GPL. How is that not forcing conformity?

Wouldn't a less conforming license be one where only the GPL code that you used needs to be released?

The FSF wants everyone to use the exact same license (GPL), which is conformity, or do you have your own definition of conformity as well?

Join the FSF today! We are freedom* loving and non-conformist**!

* See pages 1-3 of the rule book for our definition of freedom along the rules you must adhere to if you want this freedom.

** Conforming to our license and ideology is still expected.

Anonymous said...

Wake me up when this blog is telling the truth.

Missed the complete issue. Wine that I deal with built as per instructions works exactly the same no matter the distro even when built from source.

Funny bit missed the problem completely. Linux Distributions apply there own unique patches to the sources. That is the true cause of variation.

With source packages the following are controllable. Compiler used libraries linked against. Funny enough control enough options in the configure system source even that different computers and distros are generating the binary they all can create exactly the same binary.

Sorry shipping same binary is not needed. Shipping controlled source is enough.

I am starting to wonder if this guy is a idiot. Or is smart and wanting to see how dumb every person who flames here is.

WE ARE *NIXED! said...

@.net

No, I was not avoiding your point. Again, if you do not like the terms of the license, just don't use the code, or better yet, come up with better code on your own. If you're still stuck, then look at similar projects that are under other licenses such as FreeBSD and MIT. The fact that you want to take an issue and make a red herring out of it is interesting. However, the subject at hand is source code, documentation, and the way that source code is distributed.

Maybe we're misunderstanding each other. Maybe I'm in the wrong in my way of thinking. Or, maybe... just maybe, you're getting a tad bit frosted at the fact that not everyone blindly follows what this blogger(s) is(are) saying.

Concerning your argument about the FSF, what is truly non-conformist is the fact that their license does not allow the person who modifies and/or redistributes software under said license to prevent those who could potentially receive copies of said software from having the same options that they did. If you want to use those 10 lines of GPL code, then you will have to do one of the following:

1.) License your entire program under the GPL.

2.) See if those ten lines can be used to make a library instead that's licensed under the LGPL. Anything under the LGPL can be linked to proprietary components. The rest of your program could then utilize the 10 lines of GPL code as a separate library, thus the rest of your program could remain proprietary if you wished.

3.) Just not use the code in question and either look for other code that is licensed more to your liking or just figure it out on your own.

You sound like somebody I may have met in real life. Perhaps the concept of Free and Open Source Software has you upset that your job security is not guaranteed. Or perhaps you're simply a hobbyist defending their chosen development platform. Loyalty is a virtue, but can turn into a vice if you don't stop and think. What amuses me the most is that you seem to balk at the very idea that the GPL is meant to prevent you from taking code from the open (that is licensed under the GPL) and close it up and call it your own. You make it sound like it's such a bad thing to share with other people out in the public. If you don't like that game, don't play it!

The GPL is no more conformist than Apple's licensing. If you don't like the licensing don't use the product. It's that simple! I have shown you that there are ways to use the code without opening up your entire program. VMWare and Parallels are two examples in case you're curious.

I believe that someone else who commented had hit the bullseye: marketing. They are correct that without any marketing whatsoever, a project or product can eventually fold. Even AMD took out ads in printed publications every now and then in the early Athlon days.

@lis,

Remember when you mentioned BeOS? It was technically a superior OS to Windows. However, Microsoft's marketing had already paid off. It's not a matter of technical superiority at this point. There's things that always need fixed, meaning there's always room for improvement. The main issue is marketing and the timing of said marketing.

Finally, I would like to close by pointing out one more time the likely reason that Google chose not to use Windows-based servers: licensing costs! Keep in mind that copies of Windows have often placed restrictions on how big a local area network could be (so big LAN parties could be in breach of their EULA many times over) before having to purchase the appropriate licensing. With a *nix-based platform, the network could simply be extended by adding more servers. That, and due to the very nature of *nix-based systems these days, it's way too difficult to use viruses to wipe out systems.

Ing-Long Eric said...

@anonymous

Try writing software for Linux and distributing them to more than 10 distributions then let us know how it goes. :)

Anthony M. Rasat said...

* Note that, not having source code doesn't entirely prevent this. There are many famous examples in Win32-land where programs depend on bugs within the runtime, I claim that similar mistakes are strictly and significantly easier when source code is available.

Oxymoron. You just sniff your own fart. When you have source code and fuck things up, yes it happens from times to times, but then you learned from that mistakes and try to avoid it in the future. At the same moment, YOU -- so called Windows Elite Users -- just keep hearing "Bong!" the Windows Notification sound and have absolutely nothing you can do to circumvent that.

.net jerk-face said...


If you're still stuck, then look at similar projects that are under other licenses such as FreeBSD and MIT.


Stuck on what? The question was hypothetical. You claimed that FlOSS was non-conformist, I countered that you are wrong and explained why. I'll let the readers decide since you don't want to answer my questions directly.


You sound like somebody I may have met in real life. Perhaps the concept of Free and Open Source Software has you upset that your job security is not guaranteed.


I avoid linux people like the plague, you haven't met me. My job security is just fine, there is plenty of .net work now that everyone has realized how awful java really is.


What amuses me the most is that you seem to balk at the very idea that the GPL is meant to prevent you from taking code from the open (that is licensed under the GPL) and close it up and call it your own.


My issue with the GPL is more with the disingenuous nature of how it is presented. It reminds me of how the German Democratic Republic was anything but republic or democratic. The GPL is a forced-collectivist license, the purpose of the license can in fact be explained more clearly without using the word freedom.


The GPL is no more conformist than Apple's licensing.


Now that's an endorsement. No more conforming than Apple, great. Put that on a t-shirt.


They are correct that without any marketing whatsoever, a project or product can eventually fold.


Right, and Mysql is popular because of all those tv ads that involve dancing monkeys with that catchy jingle that tells you to use it.

Useful software, especially free useful software will sell itself without marketing. Linux is still chasing that 1% desktop market share because it isn't a useful desktop. It in fact sucks balls as a desktop.

Anonymous said...

You know that wordpress is using PHP and MySQL, and probably is running on linux based OS.....

Roman Werpachowski said...

@we are *nixed!

"Is the reason that one complains about "too many choices" concerning the compilation of software (i.e. different options being set for different architectures and different compilers and more) really about quality of software, or is it just another way of saying, "I'm sorry, I don't wish to think today...."?"


YES! I don't want to think about the choices you, the author of the app, should have made. I have my own choices on which I want/need to think, and I was expecting you app to be helpful with that when I installed it. But you, FOSS author, are arrogant enough to force me to make choices for you.

dingo said...

that it requires several pages for a GNU license to be described, and several thousand more freetards to re-describe it with metaphors and hypothetical situations is exactly why programmers like myself avoid completely and absolutely at all costs in my professional career.

I feel like linux is a myspace community of freetards who pretend to make use of each other's code so people will look at theirs, and pretend like their code actually means anything to solve real life problems in the business and science & engineering world.

WE ARE *NIXED! said...

"and pretend like their code actually means anything to solve real life problems in the business and science & engineering world"

Um... Say that to the New York Stock Exchange. Or perhaps the Pentagon.

Linus Torvalds said...

You know what's going on because you have the source? If you even bother to get the source. If you even know how to read the source. If you have the time to figure out what is going in the source. Please, when was the last time you read all of the source for X to ensure that it wasn't "spying" on you? What? Never. Exactly. Thank God I have the source so I can read through billions of lines of code to find the instantiation of PC_Fucker object on line 1,259 in ./program/src/really/deep/directories/one/hundred/thousands/files/pcfucker.cpp

Roman Werpachowski said...

"Thank God I have the source so I can read through billions of lines of code to find the instantiation of PC_Fucker object"

Well, to be honest, probably a lot of things (like "calling home") can be found semiautomatically, if you know what to look for. So having the source *might* give him some advantage.

Roman Werpachowski said...

"Um... Say that to the New York Stock Exchange. Or perhaps the Pentagon."

Yeah, 'cuz they all use Linux because of compiz.

Anonymous said...

'Linus Torvalds' said... blah blah blah

Do you check binaries with a disassembler? I do. It's just that having the source is much better - there's no assembly to decipher.

Roman Werpachowski said...
'But you, FOSS author, are arrogant enough to force me to make choices for you.'
So, you want something for free and you are arrogant enough to dictate how it should be made. Either you should do it yourself or pay someone else to do it for you... The 'Free' in 'Free Software' doesn't really equate to 'free of any cost', you know?

'@all who say binary=bad, source=good
There is a strong reason why software should be distributed in binary form.'
It is. There are some exceptions - like Gentoo, Arch AUR, LFS and what the original developers release. Often there are official packages for bigger distros. Then there's the distros which mostly give away ready to use binaries ready for use.

@ library cruft
Bad design is still bad design, no matter what kind of distribution model you choose.

A nice example of different approaches is the various Windows APIs vs. Gtk. Microsoft is innovating often for the sake of innovation (making new things - sometimes better, but mostly unnecessary), while they have to support a huge amount of old code.
The Gtk guys on the other hand are very conservative and now they have problems, because their library is no longer 'good enough'. They're going to update the same old library - make the thing progressively better. I like that approach more, because it generates less 'technology trash'. Neither is perfect though.

....

If there's anything keeping the whole F/OSS movement together, it's a kind of a social network. The developers trust each other. When you act like an asshole, people won't like you and your code. Look at the Reiser guy - he treated people like s%$t. He's smart - but not someone I would trust. That's why his reiser4 filesystem never got accepted in the mainline kernel.
It's the same everywhere. If other devs and distributors don't trust you, your code is DEAD. Writing blatantly malicious code IN THE OPEN is a very bad idea and no one conscious of his own future would do that. At least no one sane.

WE ARE *NIXED! said...

"Yeah, 'cuz they all use Linux because of compiz."

Red herring. Try again.

Anonymous said...

'One "official" distro.. As a standard to measure against. I guess that'll never happen.'

I don't see why this should happen. Different people and companies have different needs. This hopefully won't change any time soon. I wouldn't want to live in that kind of world :<

Standards are forming where it makes sense - see http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/

Linus Torvalds said...

You missed my point. It was essentially about the extremely narrow scope of people this is useful to. Yes, in a high-profile project it is nicer as there would be more skilled people looking at it but in the grand scheme of things having the source for review is of little use to the overwhelming majority of people. The argument to the desktop user that you are safer because you can review the code isn't very compelling as it doesn't address the user's ability to even do so.

Anonymous said...

@Linus Torvalds
True, nothing is 100% safe and most users just don't care how the machine works. I think that a distro like Debian or RedHat can be considered a high profile project - there are package maintainers who *should* have some knowledge of what they are doing... Well, I hope so.

George Slavov said...

While I agree with you for the most part, I would like to defend source distribution in one minor case. I work with an embedded platform that runs GNU/Linux and the company that supports it only supplies a Linux to Linux cross-compiler. Well I use Windows/OS X and the fact that GCC is freely available as source allowed me to build my own cross-compiler which is quite great in my book.

One thing's for sure though - there were not enough docs on how to do it and I had to scrape up expertise from a bunch of people to figure out how to do it. In the end I had no choice though. If I am to do my work, I had to figure it out, and I did.

Anonymous said...

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I like this example from the site: "- Talked about using your computer (with free software) instead of spending all of your time fixing your computer (with Windows)."

I've even stopped going to Slashdot because of these type of zealots. They literally brainwash themselves and anyone who will listen, (or captive audiences!), with talk of how easy Linux is to use, and that it's easier to type cd /home/usr tar zxvf.wxyzslkjokjre.tar.gz than it is to double-click on an .exe.

It's also easier to spend two weeks learning to get your wireless card working in Linux than it is to click on an icon in Windows.

And Linux is so superior in the way that you have to restart ALSA all the time.

There's also my personal favorite, whenever I mention the pitiful state of games in Linux, I'm told one of two things: that you can run WoW in Wine, or that Linux users don't care about games, and to buy an XBox 360 if I want to play them.

All these freedoms clearly show that Linux is the way to go.

Ryan Lane said...

@all who wish full binaries were distributed

One thing people seem to be overlooking is the fact that security vulnerabilities crop up in libraries. When an application links against a vulnerable library, that application is now also vulnerable.

The benefit of all of your applications linking against the same shared libraries is that when you update the shared library, all of your applications get the protection immediately.

If each one of your applications staticly links in the same library, now you have to update each application for the same vulnerability, that wasn't really that application's vulnerability.

Microsoft has had this issue with their own applications. Numerous commercial applications for Windows have this problem. I've seen applications that have old DLLs that were patched by the original vendor years before.

Have you ever had to search a system for vulnerable DLLs? Have you ever had to call a vendor and ask to have the DLL updated, just to be told that they don't manage that DLL, and that you should call "so and so vendor" for an updated DLL? Have you ever had to ask a vendor if it is ok to update a DLL with a newer version from a third party vendor? I have. It is a serious problem.

I'll stick with shared libraries, and having to deal with the versioning problems from the distros. And yes, I agree that there are problems with relying on the distros for packages, but overall I think it is more reliable, especially from a security standpoint.

@all who say FOSS is dying

It is somewhat silly to say this. Take a look at the applications on your system. How many of them are open source? Browse around the internet a while. How many of the websites you are visiting use open source software? Go get weather reports. Do you think all of that data was created with proprietary software (I can guarantee you that it isn't - I package some of that software)? Go to Wikipedia. Every single component of Wikipedia (and all of the Wikimedia sites) is open source - it is a top 10 site.

Being so extreme in your viewpoints make you sound like a troll. Do I think open source will take over the world? No. But I do believe open source will eventually compete evenly with most proprietary software.

Anonymous said...

I recall, back then there were the times, when Windows API documentation was highly confusing to read. I bet, the problem of buggy software depending on bugs can be largely attributed to this. Instead of reading the docs, the lazy developer would simply try out a few possibilities at random, and pick up one that works, not caring whether it's up to spec or not.

Nowadays, the docs are top-quality, and i feel the software is becoming more stable too.

Consider that reading source is much more work than reading even the worst documentation, so i don't think this affects software quality measurably, probably people still shove random shit up the APIs when the docs are not enough, and nobody reads the source, whether it's there or not.

Windows has been written in a highly evasive manner, trying to make sense of most, but not quite all shit that gets shoved up its ass. An alternative would be to punish the programmer for every mistake he makes. I don't know what policies in respect to that different important libraries on Linux carry, would like to find out more.

Anonymous said...

Don't even get me started on normal users. Let's talk about developers first. If I get a penny everytime I meet a developer who doesn't give a fuck about whether he can use the source or not AS LONG AS IT WORKS, I'll... well, I'll have lots of pennies.

Finibus Bonorum said...

Look at the Reiser guy - he treated people like s%$t. He's smart - but not someone I would trust. That's why his reiser4 filesystem never got accepted in the mainline kernel.

Heh, heh...he had a killer personality...Oh, wait, he did kill someone...for real! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser

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Ours is an envionment where evil is perceived to be rewarded while good is punished. As with everything the Gods have a reason for creating this perception::::
People who fall on the good side of the good/evil scale have more favor, and when they do something wrong the Gods punish them BECAUSE THEY WANT THEM TO LEARN. The Gods want them to receive this feedback in hope they make corrections and begin to behave appropriately. The Gods DON'T like evil and refuse to grant this feedback.
EVERYBODY pays for what they do wrong, only evil people must wait until their next life before they will experience the wrath of the Gods, manifested in their reincarnation as a lower form of life into environments with increased/enhanced temptations.
Sadly, this allows the Gods to position this perception of evil rewarded as temptation, one which they use as an EXTREMELY effective corruptor.

Both Africa and the Medittereanean are regions which have sexual issues. This is a sign of morbid disfavor once you understand that females are the God's favored gender. Muhammad's (Mohammed's) polygamy halfway through his life as a prophet was preditory. Now a huge percentage of Muslims believes in male superiority and that the abuse of women is God's will. Female genital mutilation is still practiced in Africa. Black misogyny is the most eggregious example in the recent past.
Black member size is temptation to a predisposed population.
The patriarchal cancer spread throughout Europe because of Christianity, of which the majority of policy makers were Italian men. Expect the largest landowner in Europe and the continent's original superpower also played a major role in African slavery.

Militancy in Africa is consistant with the Iraqi example, as was slavery and the KKK here in America:::Fear enforces proper behavior. Without it we see what happens as a result of gross/morbid disfavor:::::AIDS, crack babies, dead young men in gangland retaliation killings. This is the purpose behind many black's historical tendancy towards resistance.
The same principle was true in Europe and throughout the world for centuries:::People whom lived under iron fists were conditioned to think the right way. As a result they experienced higher numbers of children accend into heaven because they were taught to think and behave appropriately. Our preditory envionment of "freedom" was the primary purpose the Gods had when implimenting this strategy that is the United States, one which they used to spred the cancer of democracy and westernization throughout the world. And the Gods use this tool that is America to prey on the disfavored both at home and abroad.

Even the Old Testiment is not to be taken literally, but the Gods do offer clues throughout to help the disfavored:::The apple is a tool of temptation used to corrupt Adam and Eve and cast them out of the Garden of Eden.
There is another lesson to be learned from this passage, and it is quite similar to the vailing issue and the discourse over women's attire which ultimately died in the 70s:::Women are responsible for and control the fate of mankind.

Think about what I say. Consider what I teach. Society is going to become disturbingly ugly as we approach the Apocalypse due to spiralling, runaway disfavor.
I do not know when this will occurr, but it is the God's way to grant some time before they end on Planet Earth.
Make the decision to always be good and never look back. Until you do this technology will employ tactics to test your resolve:::Ridicule, beligerance, doubt and refusal to abandon what people perceive to be their "investment".
Pray daily. Think appropriately. Too many are confident, unaware of the God's awesome powers or their status as antients. Others may fall prey to their positioning.
Be humbled, God-fearing and beware of the God's temptations, for everyone is tested to evaluate their worthiness.

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