Sunday, July 20, 2008

Of silos and samba

Somewhat administrative: Screw you Slashdot. You linked Mr. Allison's article, but not me directly. Classy. Maybe you don't want to be associated with me? Whatever, that's cool, I don't like you guys either. You guys are like the Al Jazeera of tech journalism. I don't really read you because I want to, it's just a good place to find material.

Anyways, real props goes out to Jeremy himself. I'm sure it took a lot of balls to post a link to this blog on such a legitimate forum. Respect. I also found it funny that you kept referring to me as "he or she". As it if isn't obvious. You see any women in the FOSS community? Just take a look around.

But anyways, in honor of the favor, I'll take you up on your topic suggestion: Samba.

I'd like to write pages and pages about how Samba is shit and should die a fiery death, but actually, I've found samba to be pretty solid code... when I can configure it. And that's what it really comes down to. The best code in the world won't change the world if people can't use it. If I could have a nickel for every hour that someone has lost trying to configure samba, I'm sure I could buy all the hard drives I need so that I never have to share anything over a network.

Want more specifics? Unfortunately, I don't think I have anything earth-shattering here. It seems to me like it's the config file (or more generally, the configuration mechanism). Yea, it's fairly simply formatted as far as config files go (and thankfully, it's not unreadable, un-typeable XML garbage). But when it comes down to it, I don't have hours and hours to read your man page to see how to set things up. And apparently, neither do my friends. I'm pretty sure I've had a good understanding of smb.conf at least 20 times in my life, each time lasting around 30 minutes. I'm sorry guys, it just doesn't matter enough for me to remember. And don't get me started about smbpasswd.

What are my options for configuring Samba using a GUI? Fedora's super simple tools? Webmin? Please. The former doesn't give you any options, and the latter gives you way too many options. I see a bunch of other things listed on your page, but nothing I recognize. And that's another indication of the problem too.

If you want to provide a feature as part of a platform, you can't just write the code and say "here's the config file! have at it!". When you do that, you get a bunch of other people who don't really understand the configuration space writing config tools for you that all suck in one way or another. If you want to introduce a core feature to the desktop "platform", you really have to make vertical integration easy, or even do it yourself. Samba, as far as I can tell, hasn't done this. They've written a solid engine with tons of features, but have ignored the the core problem that very few people understand how to configure the damn thing. They've effectively left it to others, and the others have failed. Where as Microsoft? yea, their server code might even be inferior, but configuring shares is pretty damn easy in comparison.

Which really brings me to the main topic of this post: the silo effect. As far as I can tell, the silo effect has been around since the dawn of software development. Most software needs to integrate with other software, yet most development teams communicate very little with the teams that write the software they need to integrate with. Perhaps samba could talk to the kernel people, and the fuse people, and the freedesktop people, and the kde people, and the gnome people, and engineer a top to bottom solution that makes samba usable for desktop users. Sure. As some of you flamers like to say, just wait until 2020, and it'll be there.

As far as I can tell, in the OSS world, the silo effect seems to be magnified. Which is ironic, since one of the things OSS was supposed to do is kinda solve this whole silo thing in the first place. Everyone can see each other's code. Everyone can modify each other's code. If the developers of some project didn't care about your goals, you could always take their code, and do it yourself. Right? There's open mailing lists and bug trackers so that communication is as easy and as smooth as possible, right?

Well. In practice, it doesn't work. It's obvious that forking every project you need to integrate with is untenable. Nobody can understand and maintain so much code. Besides, if you fork enough parts of the stack, in effect, you're forking the entire stack. Nobody's gonna ship your modified version of dbus, gtk, and the X server just for your silly app. As for bugzillas? Everyone knows that just because you file a bug against a project, doesn't mean it gets fixed. Mailing lists? I'm sure you'll get the friendly reply of "yea, sounds great! send us a patch!"

So what to do you do instead? As someone who develops a Linux desktop, how do you get samba guys to work on making configuration easy, predictable, reliable, and usable? How do you get them to write code that they don't care about? Write it yourself? Well that's great, except that it's really difficult. Just because you have the code, doesn't mean you can hack it. Even if you can hack the code, doesn't mean you can do it well, or in a way that the maintainers of the code will accept. You have to play by their rules, respect their priorities, and integrate into their development workflow. Multiply that by the number of projects you have to integrate with... and again, all I can say is have fun! see you in 20 years!

The saddest part of it is, society has developed a general solution to this problem a long time ago. It's called money. Can't seem to get someone to care about your goals? well it turns out that a few benjamins can usually change their mind.

Oh. Crap. Except in the OSS world, very few people have figured out how to make money. And those who have, have built their silo walls tall and thick that even the architects of the Great Wall would be impressed.

So we can't use money. What else can we use for motivation? Hmmm... Oh I've got it! Let's start a movement! People like freedom. People like feeling superior and righteous. If we can find a bunch of bored coders and tell them that they're coding for freedom, maybe they will do it for free?

And thus the birth of Free Software?

Too bad it wasn't Free and Usable Software. Free software is easy, you just have to write code and upload a tarball. Turns out usability requires complicated coordination between hundreds of developers all working together to reach the same goal. Try selling that to the Gnome and KDE crews. If you can get those guys to cooperate, I'm sure every Silicon Valley company will be knocking on your door with an offer to manage their R&D divisions.

As for Samba: my suggestion would be for the project to take more ownership of the usability aspect of the software. Some suggestions? Make it easier to configure. Or make it easier for others to write configuration utilities. Maybe a configuration API of some sort, so that others can write quick and reliable front ends. Also, document some best practices in terms of configuration. Or go even further, publish a configuration and deployment scheme that you guys think would be suitable for desktop use. Tell distros that you're not going to help look at bugs they find unless they follow the exact same scheme. Refine that scheme as you get more feedback from distros. You're already the central authority for samba code, why not play the same role for configuration? Produce a working and usable baseline that's easy for distros to deploy. Take them out of the equation. You'll always get some expert users tweaking your baseline configuration, but that's up to them. Don't sacrifice usability for the majority of your users by catering to the few tweakaholics.

But maybe samba just doesn't care about the desktop. I mean, it's not like anyone's making money there. On the other hand, I see a lot of useful shipping storage devices that have samba code.* I just hope the samba folks are getting a piece of that action.

* Though even on those devices, samba configuration interfaces are pretty miserable.

317 flames:

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Anonymous said...

I can understand you waisting your money buying outdated software, but I cannot understand you wasting your time writing these kind of articles. And why did I wasted my time reading this?

Anonymous said...

He missed swat. Samba's configuration tool. Yes its mostly been Samba disregard for desktop market.

Samba 4 does get a little bit evilish allows Windows 2003 Administration Pack to be used to configure samba.

User-friendly samba around Conner just slightly wrong.

Anonymous said...

Fabulous stuff.

I run Linux on most of my gear, and I'm posting this from my Linux laptop. But just because I use it and even mostly like it doesn't mean I think the sun shines out Stallman's asshole.

Please keep reminding everybody that just because something is free isn't an excuse for it sucking like a sorority girl full of Jagermeister.

Anonymous said...

http://samba.ausics.net/samba/history/samba-3.2.0.html Also pay to read.

Newer GPLv3 samba is starting to include the start of graphical user tools provided by Samba for desktop users.

So exact features most likely would be wise. Open Source world complain and not tell them what you exactly want and you will not get.

Anonymous said...

to the guy from the first comment:

dont comment on things you obviously know nothing about.

you've entirely missed the point of this blog.

Anonymous said...

If you have skills to write code and fix what you do not like, just do it - the source code is available. But what I see is you only have enough skills to whine. I wish you guys were able to create at least 1% of what Stallman has created.

Anonymous said...

i have been using linux for about 4 years now and i have never manually changed any text file to make samba usable ...

kde control center has a section that allows GUI samba configuration ..

pclinuxos(my distro of choice) control center also has a section that allow GUI samba configuration

pclinuxos control center is originally from mandriva and therefor mandriva's control center has a GUI option to configure samba

this is 2008, what linux distro are you using that forces you change text files to configure samba or other system settings ..

you should pick your distro carefully and go with the one that comes with a control center

muungwana

Anonymous said...

To the guy from the fifth comment:

Obviously I do not know anything about Samba because I've never had any problems with it. For some reason it just works for me. I would suggest you going to www.ubuntu.com, getting a live CD and trying it out for yourself. Then you can go to a file browser, right-click on a folder you'd like to share, select Share tab and check "Share this folder" check box. For some reason it just works. And I do not even know if Samba is used here or not. Obviously I do not know anything...

Anonymous said...

I love your rants man. You make good points in a fun way.

Keep it up.

Alexei said...

Hey, guys, look what I found - a Linux distro which doesn't allow you to get their stable release for free:

http://www.elivecd.org/Download/Stable

(They let you download a development version but tell you its 1) not usable 2) the window manager is not fully integrated for Elive (sic) 3) eye candy is taken out)

So there: I sympathize and do understand that development takes their time and effort and work has to be paid for. But this really is a road to nowhere, IMHO. I mean - after all I've seen from other distros you expect me to pay you for yet another one?

Have a time-limited FULLY-FUNCTIONAL release or something. Oh wait. Fosstards gonna slice you and spread all over their forums. Too bad.

Daengbo said...

server -- it doesn't need a GUI. Except for that small point, another excellent troll from LH! Keep 'em coming.

Anonymous Coward said...

Don't blame Slashdot for not linking your blog. Blame the submitter for not giving you credit. Slashdot editors usually don't edit the submitted stories much.

Anonymous said...

GUI is sometimes good. A good GUI is very good. But text config file isn't always evil. There are a few good things about it:
- Directly searchable
- Can include comments and explaination
- Can be revision controlled
- Can be backup easily
- Can be transferred to other system/people easily.

Anyway, just one specific comment to your view with config files. I'm not really disagreeing any other points you've made :)

James said...

Couldn't agree more.

Eugenia said...

>real props goes out to Jeremy himself.

I read his article today, and it was nice to see him talk about the subject of "tough love". But I didn't agree with his analysis that the problem in FOSS can be found "in just a few bugs". The problem is leadership and the way things are ran in general in the bazaar.

>You see any women in the FOSS community?

/me looks at her growing balls.

Anonymous said...

Too bad that they won't here you.

Yonah said...

I second your feelings on Slashdot, which started sucking hardcore donkey balls some years back. It used to be the only page I would check multiple times a day, now it's a sorry disappointment filled with advertisements, outlandish slander, and fear mongering thanks to poorly written blogs masquerading as legitimate examples of journalism.

Someone can make a solid argument about how Linux sucks in a particular way, then some fanboy responds with 20 reasons why Linux blows Microsoft to pieces, none of which address the issue first brought up. The lusers mod up that repose, and mod down the parent. While they try hard to differentiate themselves from Digg, it's the same shit, just a different server.

Anonymous said...

Hey, guys, look what I found - a Linux distro which doesn't allow you to get their stable release for free:

http://www.elivecd.org/Download/Stable


So there: I sympathize and do understand that development takes their time and effort and work has to be paid for. But this really is a road to nowhere, IMHO. I mean - after all I've seen from other distros you expect me to pay you for yet another one?


I tried this stuff (beta version ) on a MacBook pro. It pretty much worked (yes including wireless, webcam) and even included the correct codecs to play video out of the box. The looks however weren't "that great" (maybe it has changed? Seriously, I doubt it) and when you really think about it, the two basic weaknesses of any Linux distro remain.

1) Even if it works at instant T, nobody knows if it is going to work at instant T+1, when the Kernel is upgraded again (or should I write "broken"?).

2) Where's the mandatory useful stuff? (Office, iTunes, etc.)

np237 said...

If you let the Samba guys write a GUI, it will certainly be just as shitty as a Samba configuration file written by GNOME developers.

A correctly designed GUI already exists: shares-admin (from gnome-system-tools). The good point here is that this GUI is separated from the backend that actually writes the configuration. So if the Samba people want to improve stuff, they need to involve in system-tools-backends, so that it becomes more solid and more useful. Not in creating a new unusable GUI. There are already too many unusable GUIs out there.

Anonymous said...

From reading the various comments, it's possible that Samba has gotten easier to configure since I last tried.

I haven't tried in about 7 years.

I gave up on samba about 7 years ago - and figured that hell - I'll give my windows lusers windows file servers, while I give my unix servers NFS as $deity intended!

Works for me, as I don't have that many windows users to support.

Anonymous said...

So now you're doing bug reports for them, eh, LH? That is so sad. I had such high hopes for you. You were a shining proprietary light in the dark wilderness of FOSS idiots.

Bet you wrote this post in emacs. luser.

Anonymous said...

I don't mean you should stop writing of course. Just saying you're going soft...

Anonymous said...

You forgot to mention NFS, which is far easier to configure (one or two lines for most stuff). Samba is only for sharing between *nix and Windows machines. Even then the configuration file is quite straightforward.

Also, I'm not buying this Samba configuration 20 times, 30 minutes each shit. Either you lack any sort of memory or are just making it up. Honestly, it takes about 5 to 10 minutes to configure. Alternatively, NFS takes about a minute.

Mehrdad said...

lol!

Even if he (Jeremy) had seen a woman in FOSS community, he should've understood it from "ungzip my pants && suck my tarballs"

btw, you're the best hater I've seen!

Yert said...

Nice blog. Granted, this isn't a flame. But I had to let you know that you are doing an important job which is helping the communities involved (even if one community only seems to be taking it too harshly).

HatersHater said...

"You see any women in the FOSS community?"

Not many, but there are some. Just take a look around.

Anonymous said...

Fail for "best practices" faggotspeak.

Markus said...

I have just realized something.

Most posters here are anonymous. That is fine. But maybe we could call them "anonymous1" "anonymous2" etc... automatically.

Right now it is hard to address to their whiney posts. :-)

h1d said...

I'd say, Samba still has a sane configuration file. While 'man smb.conf' can be a real long thing, it's much better than having crappy doc. All the options really allow alot of circumstances to be solved where Samba usually sits in between a mixed and complicated environment where user needs can vary greatly.

Talk about shitty conf, sendmail? hmm, nagios? wow... bind's semi colon addict? 100 different ways distro pack apache's conf? Does anyone remember how to 'export PS1' with colors on their newly installed shell?

Samba's pretty close to that of MySQL's and Postfix's in terms of how it is formatted and I think it's far from crap. And it has a good man page too.

In terms of complexity, Postfix comes very close to it, it has tons of parameters, except, no one really puts that many and rely on the default values. OpenLDAP is pretty confusing too, since it is order sensitive too.

Otoh, talk about good config, I'd say syslog-ng has a pretty good format, where you can mix and build sections to build up the final format of logging and is quite flexible. Apache isn't bad either, but it's just we're all too used to it.

h1d said...

Here's another reference to this blog. Can't believe any of those /. nerds going "here's the link to the actual blog" to get his shiny score 5 informative point... It's not even linked in the comment... how sucky is it?

Anonymous said...

Hasn't anyone here used Yast for Samba configuration? What's wrong with it? What's wrong with the Samba configuration tool in KDE? Or does complaining about everything mean that you're always right? I did like some of your articles, lately though you're more tending on the trolling type of arguing, as you have already covered the most important linux distribution problems and not much is left to criticize.

Muibe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
David1357 said...

I just copy the same smb.conf file around from machine to machine. I have been using the same one since 2002.

If you really need a GUI configuration tool for Samba, write it yourself. That is what Free and Open Source is all about.

The people who wrote Samba wrote it for themselves. Then they released it to the world as a favor. If you hate everyone who does you a favor, you will soon find people stop doing you favors.

Anonymous said...

hits the nail on the head again...

and...

ungzip my pants and suck my tarballs... what chick would say that?!?

great post dude!

Michael Wigle said...

I have to agree with the article. Configuring Samba is a real pain unless you're doing straight GUI shares from a desktop distro like Ubuntu. I messed with Samba config on my Debian server forever and could get linux clients to work but not Windows and finally messed up the config so much that none of my shares worked properly. So, I eliminated the Windows box and went to all NFS shares. Took me an hour to read, learn, and get the shares working. The best part is it's a noticeably faster connection. If Samba is going to improve it's usability I think the core configuration needs to be looked at. Not just making a pretty GUI on top of a convoluted system.

Anonymous said...

I tried to configure samba once, but it was too hard and I gave up. I tried to follow some random guides I found on Google but it didn't work right. I know, I know, I should have simply learned how to program and then rewrite the program from the ground up. (Notice I don't say "code", I say "program". Also, I don't say "machine" or "box", I say, "computer".)

Anonymous said...

LMAO! Found the story on Slashdot and this is awesome funny! While I think the Samba Config argument is a bit weak, the opening is hilarious!! New to the site, going to find more blogs. BTW, you should start a windows haters too! Your writing style! Exchange alone would give ya material for at least 4 months! As a note, I started the same thing years ago, would post my Linux headaches and Windows headaches an alternate between the two.

Anonymous said...

ok just read more.. and I'm dying laughing!!!!

best quote so far ...

"Wow. Choice is great. Except none of these are what I want. What does "Use with care" mean? Why is there no "Use memory efficiently (and just work)" option?"

and yes, I am a Unix/Linux Admin. lol

h1d said...

Wow, david, you better read all the blog entries rofl...

"write it yourself"

Suuuurrreee......... ok, LH will be the 5th installment of half functional (unless he somehow gets serious on this project) samba GUI and he is going to write about his own GUI implementation how half assed it is?

Just because apps are free, it doesn't mean, we can't ask. That sort of attitude, and of course the dev's attitude, really is stopping all the growth. Why do users need to suddenly become the dev from the next day? Do we have time to write every annoyed application replacement? I don't think so.

Good shit dude. And go hug your GPL bible.

taffer said...

*facepalm.jpg*

I read the comments, hoping to find someone triumphantly posting a link to a Samba configuration best-practices guide or something. Naturally, there's nothing here.

I guess that's OK, I'd like to get away from using my XP box for anything useful (I've accidentally migrated to a much slower iBook because the user experience is so much better)... it doesn't really need to access the data I"ve been putting on my file server.

h1d said...

Religious (deeply one way minded) people never see the reality. RMS stands for Religious what again?

DannyVegas said...

Samba is one of the best examples of "the best of the best" open source projects. Sadly, its still pretty fuckin' gay.

I have dealt with samba time and time again and have always gotten burned. One time I just wanted to set up a damn printer so my girlfriend could print to a little HP color printer from the other room. Turns out that whatever build or version or whatever the fuck of samba didn't work with my printing system which turned out to be CUPS. I didn't know this because it was set up to emulate some other shitty printing system which uses the same commands as an even older system built in the 1960s.

3 fuckin' weekends ediditing configuration files later I finaly found some guy who told me to meet him on an IRC channel and he would tell me how to fix it. I get on there and he and his luser freinds make fun of me for a solid hour a nd a half before they tell me what I need to add to my config file.

I finaly got the thing to send shit to the printier. By "shit" I mean a bunch of garbage that went throught half a reem of paper when ever I woud try to print from word.

I finaly solved the problem by erasing the hard drive of the computer and installing Windows 2003 Server. It took all of 5 minutes to set it up and has worked ever since.

Robert said...

First off...good job telling TRASHDOT to screw off. Yeah they are a good source of articles and freshmeat just rocks, but they too have built one of those great walls around their success and there legion of doom followers are the same assclown tools you see over at digg.com (created by one of those same assclowns, but at least he got paid to do it).

I think that part of the reason WHY open source software has not taken a real foothold on the desktop is because a lot of the software is not designed for everyone to use it.

Samba is a prime example. To the guy who suggested download ubuntu and try out Samba clear does not know anything about Samba and obviously does not know that APT prebuild and configures the software you can download and Ubuntu (and Debian) has the pretty GUI you just fill in the blanks. Samba is a REAL pain the ass if you have to do it from scratch. But I digress...

KDE is an another example of FAIL. Not only does it look like a cross between OS X and Vista (KDE 4), KDE lacks a decent framework structure which Windows has. For example, I can right click on the windows desktop and ALL my desktop options are right there. In KDE (and Gnome) they 10+ fucking places. Why should I have to start at a command line to change the resolution and pray like hell it boots back up. Utterly fucking stupid. The year of the Linux Desktop and lick my fucking testicles. Whoops...more disgressing...

Now do not I believe I "hate" linux. I just hate things about it. As a SERVER, great invention. As a DESKTOP, ESCAPE FROM THE SHIT FACTORY! I do use Linux as a desktop but Windows is WAY ASS BETTER. PERIOD.

Nathan said...

This blog entry totally emphasizes something I've said for years...

Linux is only free if your time is worthless.

I do use linux for most of the websites I code, and it does do things well, but Windows does a great job of making things work without having to beg l33t hax0rs for help in a random forum.

selfhelpbook said...

How about Samba on UMPCs like the eeePC? Seems to me like that works extremely easily. So does everything else.

If your software comes preloaded, you have fewer troubles, no matter what OS you're using. Hence high satisfaction with OS X (which is custom made for Macs) and MS (which users have preloaded 99% of the time).

Silmeria said...

I was amused by your post, but regarding this:

>You see any women in the FOSS community?

Um, yes. Just because there aren't as many of us doesn't mean we don't exist.

bullshit said...

THANKS LH
Its well over due people started cursing this steaming pile of shit called GNU/LINUX. In the circles I move in they call you a troll, wtf if a person has a different view or experience that is encouraged in any other field except GNU/LINUX where the coder is king and the GNU/Luser is a piece of shit.

Anonymous said...

SAMBA - Satan Attacks Microsoft's Best Asset. Yes, it's easy to make S.A.M.B.A. faster when you steal all the technology, meaning you don't have to implement it.

The Rep

Anonymous said...

I came over from Slashdot--just wanted to say that this blog is made of 100% WIN.

.net jerkface said...

Don't bother with Samba, running a linux server for your windows network isn't worth the hastle. Just buy a NAS device and a brother wireless printer.

Anonymous said...

Al Jazeera is in fact a pretty high quality news channel. especially if you compare it to some the blatant propaganda channels in the US. The only thing is that is was not kind to Bush when the US where still a dictatorship ruled by Bush (I am glad that is changing now and the US is returning to a somewhat more democratic society. But you do still believe in the propaganda from that time obviously.

Anonymous said...

Dude you've just made a new fan. I found your blog due to that guy's article, and after skimming a bunch of your posts, you're just spot on. Both about Linux and about its zealots (many of which can be seen right here!)

As for Samba, again, spot on. That fucking thing has been a pain in my ass to configure ever since I started with Linux. It's a big reason that my desktop machine will never run Linux full-time, because I can never configure it adequately to receive SMB messages to my satisfaction, which is something I require to work both correctly and easily. There's simply no decent support for it.

Not only is the Samba side shitty enough to setup, but so is the interface part. You get two shitty GUI apps: Linpopup, and Linpopup2. They're worthless! They won't hide in the tray and have about three features. None of which involve sending and receiving messages properly. Apparently Linux developers have no need to talk to others on a LAN, because they don't know enough people in real life to require the functionality.

It's enough trouble to make file shares work, but messaging has been so consistently ignored that it drives me nuts.

Roman Werpachowski said...

What I don't understand in smb.conf is why the same option can have more than one name. As if my life was not hard enough.

Space Lizard Bilderberg Elite said...

Al Jazeera is in fact a pretty high quality news channel. ... blatant propaganda channels in the US ... dictatorship ruled by Bush ...

Thanks for making LH's point, eloquently.

Robert said...

On a side note, Al Jazeera is WAY better news service than US news media outlets.

Alexei said...

Yeah, also try Al-ManarTV

Anonymous said...

It's enough trouble to make file shares work, but messaging has been so consistently ignored that it drives me nuts.

So why do you use all this? ROFL

Anonymous said...

In the circles I move in they call you a troll

Find another circles, dude, and enjoy life.

Anonymous said...

I think you are being too generous with Samba... Its various file corruption issues still flare up from time to time. For example, right after Leopard (and after sub versions as well) was released, it ran into a number of file corruption issues that were directly related to Samba.

If Apple can't make Samba work properly, for certain no one reading this blog can make it work...

Anonymous said...

Thank you sir, you've contributed a wonderful blog with wonderful articles to society! Karma++

Anonymous said...

At anonymous poster who signed his name "muungwana":

Ubuntu doesn't support it out of the box. At least, not for me. Well, it did work, but I somehow couldn't sign in with my password. Turns out I had to use smbpasswd to change the password.

Additionally, now that I've switched over to Xubuntu, the built-in configuration GUI (which offers few features) doesn't work by default. You have to delve into smb.conf and delete a line and then it works.

And to Linux Hater: You may occasionally sound a bit trollish, but otherwise your posts are a great break from Slashdot.

Anonymous said...

Great blog, bad language ... no wait ... just the right words to make ppl look.

Hope the hatred doesn't consume you ;)

A long time Linux user who shares some of your feelings.

Bodhibuilder said...

None of the LHB posts made it through to digg mainsite. Right now on digg: "3 ways to try out Linux, for a Windows user" (230 diggs). Blaaa, at least it's not yet another "n bullshit reasons to switch", or "Top n linux games". Anyway, people=shit.

Anonymous said...

I read the whole thing. All the old posts. I love you, man. I'm a Windows geek, 20 years with windows. I know what makes it tick. I've played with linux many times, starting around '94. IT DOES NOT WORK! Bits & pieces do, on different boxes. And then they change which bits work on which box. Documentation is either directed at l33t h4x0rs, or idiot newbs, with no middle ground. ARRRGGGHHHH! I'm fed up with Linux.
If they ever get it all to work, including a decent way to install new applications, I might look again, maybe.
/and video drivers
/and sound
/and proprietary codecs
/and
...
/and

Anonymous said...

Look again at LSB 4.0 supporting distrobutions when they appear. Installation issue should be fixed then it will be up to codec makers and closed source video card drivers to update. There are closed source audio codecs for Linux.

Also sound and video issues with drivers happen on windows systems as well. Currently have a XP with the sound hickup. It uninstalls the sound driver all by itself randomly even part way playing a movie. Note the sound card is on motherboard.

This is a nice reverse case Linux installs and works perfectly windows sux's. Funny enough motherboard does have a windows approved logo on box. Yet it still miss matched.

Linux sound issues are normally it works or it does not. Not that ok its working now and will fail at some random time to have people ring you to fix it. Linux and Windows sound issues are both avoided by selection of hardware.

Documentation is a simple case no one is writing it.

Now don't just list /ands because you cannot think of them.

Anonymous said...

So true about smb.conf... I frequently load up a Lunix Live CD one of my old boxes, to back-up a hard-drive and what not. I do it over SMB so I can upload the stuff to my primary WINDOWS box. And it ALWAYS takes me 30 min to configure smb.conf. IT NEVER STICKS.

"'read only' is opposite of 'writable'".

crazyender said...

hi guys, I'v developed a bug report system for FOSS, it looks like this:

int on_idle()
{
printf("Linux can do everything!");
return 0;
}

int on_crashy()
{
printf("It works for me!");
close_this_bug();
return -1;
}

int on_doesnt_work()
{
printf("You dont need this future!");
printf("You dont need this future!");
printf("You dont need this future!");
printf("You dont need this future!");
close_this_bug();
return -1;
}

int on_other()
{
printf("Write the fucking code yourself!");
return -1;
}

----------------------------
as i know, this is the most powerful bug system in the world. I can tell you ," It works for me!"

Anonymous said...

Raises the good point that Linux is still not amiable for casual system administration. All those different config files, every one in a slightly different format, the GUI tools always being totally buggy and crappy.

This is one thing that Windows NT got right so many years ago. Many minor sysadmin tasks are "one-offs" and should not require comprehensive OReiley book-level knowledge to complete.

I'm sure the hardcore Unix sysadmins are scoffing right now, but there's a reason you guys are locked up in the basement. Obviously there's value in text-based configs and flexibility, but it's not worth the learning curve for too much of the market.

Anonymous said...

Obviously there's value in text-based configs and flexibility, but it's not worth the learning curve for too much of the market

Ha, you wanna get paid for doing nothing? For pushing GUI buttons? A monkey can do this.

No way dude, go back and learn config files.

Alexei said...

>> Ha, you wanna get paid for doing nothing? For pushing GUI buttons? A monkey can do this.

No way dude, go back and learn config files.


That's probably the lamest argument I ever heard: "things should be made difficult because otherwise they wouldn't pay you for doing those things".

Alexei said...

>> I've played with linux many times, starting around '94. IT DOES NOT WORK! Bits & pieces do, on different boxes. And then they change which bits work on which box.

I see Linuxes as ragtag bunch'o stuff. The only way to use it as an OS is to stick with whatever your distro supplies (idiot mode). Go astray and you'll feel the wrath of Linux. Another alternative, i guess, is to build everything from the source (go Gentoo) - how much time does it take to 'make all', about a week? Sweet.

Bodhibuilder said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bodhibuilder said...

Actually, there is one good linux distribution. It's fast, stable, userfriendly, has support time exceeding all those other LTS, plus you don't have to download updates the size of which exceeds the one of the installation media only month after initial release. It supports the largest number of desktop hardware, it has excellent GUI, most user don't even know about the existence of command line, you don't have to mess around with text config files, or read criptic man pages. It has commercial support, but community support is excellent, no elitism, no RTFM reponses. Most of the time you don't need it anyway, and rarely do you use google because you can't make something work. Installation is easy, you get to enjoy prioprietary software without using WINE but you can use great opensource apps including that which don't run on any other distribution. And you are not bothered with crappy software in the repositories. Actually you are not limited to specific repositories for your choice of software at all! The only thing is that it's not called Linux. But really, who cares? Almost nobody does. And the "less than 1 percent" of users that do is probably the same amount of people that are turned on by shit in their sex life (coprophilles), not that there is any comparison.

LIS said...

I see Linux as an interesting test in sociology - can a large group of professionals, free of marketing and management overhead, and working solely on what they want to work, actually produce a worthwhile product? In other words, can the academic model that inspired Stallman to start FOSS is translatable to the production/ engineering world?

After more than 20 years, with a focus on single class of product (software, operation systems), we can conclude that the grand experiment has failed - 99.2% percent of the market is willing to pay a large amount of money, rather than to bother with the academic experiment which is FOSS and Linux.
Like the relationship between the academia and the market, some aspects of the research can be used in order to cut costs (University researchers are being paid by the government, not by the market), and drive innovation.
Notice that the FOSS world is merely a producer of cheap knock-off so we can write the "innovation" thing right off.

There's another interesting aspect - can democracy and meritocracy truly work? Ideally, FOSS is the ultimate meritocracy. If you can code, you're in. If your code is good, it will get used.
Unfortunately, this argument fails as well - successful project are not driven by the best professionals, but by the best management - those MBAs and PHBs engineers thinks they outsmart. The same way Steve Jobs is the unquestionable leader of Apple, and Bill Gates was the face and image of Microsoft, so where Linus and Stallman the undisputed leaders, until recently, where the axis of FOSS is starting to form around Ubuntu - with it's MBA, PHB leader, Mark Shuttleworth.

The cult of personality is alive and well even in the ideological waters of FOSS, a central figures drives the ship forward, and the voices of the engineers are yet again pushed to the background, setting them back to their traditional occupation - rowing the boat, manning the mast, working for a Leader, rather than an idea, pushing forward a vision which is not their own, but rather the vision of their masters.

This is why FOSS changes nothing.
This is why

FOSS is DEAD.

LIS said...

Another point, just in case you cannot see it:
In the propriety world, engineers are still slaves to their Master, but at least they get paid well for their efforts, rather than giving their toil for free.

The FOSS model is feudal, where all the rights for property belongs the either the Lord (leader), or the Church (GPL/ LPGL, whatever).In the propriety model the pawns are allowed to secure some living from their work.

Denounce the false prophets! Rebel!
FOSS is DEAD

David Moisan said...

To Anonymous who thinks that command lines build character:

As one who uses the command line lots in Windows servers, I laugh at those admins who get huffy because someone didn't put in their 100 lines of arcane bulls--t code to do something that a GUI does in a minute. Or a automated tool does in *seconds*!

You the admin are NOT being paid to type cute command lines! You are paid to get the printer working, the system running, or more often than not, just being there just in case.

Not doing makework.

P.S. Powershell beats bash. Jus sayin'.

Anonymous said...

You admins are at the bottom of the IT food-chain, right next to technical support.

Nobody care what you need to do in order to get things done - just do it fast, do it cheap, or be replaced, and shut the fuck up and stay in background, where you belong.

jostein said...

NFS in Linux takes about a minute? That's if you are lucky.

If for some reason the system refuses to cooperate, you are stick for a day with no progress.

In the end I just installed Microsoft Services for Unix in Windows 2003 to get a NFS share up and running.

I find it odd that NFS is Linux is so shit, since it works more or less flawlessly in BSD

DarkBob said...

Dear sir Linuxhater. I must say that I truely believe that you are God. Your wisdom is unequaled on the internet. Keep up the go(o)d work!

LIS said...

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080722-report-oss-projects-need-tighter-focus-on-security.html

Is there anything at all FOSS can do better?

FOSS is DEAD

pgit said...

=(

My post isn't here any more, and I see two that say "removed by poster" but I didn't remove it.

Anyway, found this via the ZDNet link. Funny stuff.

Archis Gore said...

"ungzip my pants && suck my tarballs"

Isn't half as funny if you've had it said to you.

pgit said...

It's funny unless you know why it's said... and then it may still be funny.

so?

What I mean by "funny" is there is no real answer to the Linux v Windows (non)"debate." They both have their place. The world is a better place because of both, including that people need an outlet for the pressures of the day, and this here's a much better topic than "Obama v McCain" or "Jesus v Muhammad" and similar, likewise unresolvable non-issues.

Anonymous said...

To an MBA proponent above called LIS: neither Steve Jobs, nor Bill Gates, nor Mark Shuttleworth have MBA. I agree with the leadership point, but MBA has nothing to do with it. MBAs are also slaves, only higher paid ones. They are a product of the same academia environment as Stallman is.

Anonymous said...

To the LIS' point again:

The FOSS model is feudal, where all the rights for property belongs the either the Lord (leader), or the Church (GPL/ LPGL, whatever).In the propriety model the pawns are allowed to secure some living from their work.

Who cares that the rights belong to GPL? Even with all the source code available, with all the man pages and web-sites documenting this source code, with the huge community around it, people still can not use it.

In reality all the rights belong to people who take time to learn and to understand. They are the true beneficiaries of the FOSS model.

Anonymous said...

All of you are niggering this place up like Linux raped your cat, and to you I say, IT'S NOT A TROMBONE IN YOUR MOM'S ASS. You have no idea how that tuba got up there, do you? Of course not, but you know you want to blow on the mouthpiece.

-Ibod Catooga

Anonymous said...

lis you need to read way more.

Coverity something that scans open and closed source. Has documented a faster close rate of secuirty holes in all open source in general and less in general

Now does that mean just because something is open source it is secure no. Just like something closed source could be a major back door into your system.

Now the cross platform Java side has lacked a equal auditing project.

Besides Application Security is not the be all and end all. Ok it is on windows because services run with far too much access. But most other sane OS's don't do that stupidity.

Reason why the conerity compare of software quality being up and down across open and closed is more of a worry for you Windows users than Linux ones. Linux has kernel based secuirty to control its applications. Windows is lacking it.

Anonymous said...

@lis: "In other words, can the academic model that inspired Stallman to start FOSS is translatable to the production/ engineering world?"

No, it isn't translatable. The projects that people typically describe as "successes" in the FOSS world aren't academic/ in nature but, rather, are being driven/fed with heavy commercial involvement by IBM, Red Hat, and others. IBM has reportedly spent BILLIONS on Linux and, while it's not bad as a server OS, that's about all that anyone uses it for. Nobody worth mentioning is making serious investments in desktop infrastructure.

Anonymous said...

Would the assholes who keep throwing around the N word just STFU. There's no reason to bring racial prejudice into these discussions. If you can't do that, you don't belong here.

Anonymous said...

Nobody worth mentioning is making serious investments in desktop infrastructure.

Desktop infrastructure is becoming irrelevant. Investments go to mobile internet devices: http://moblin.org/

Anonymous said...

I wish you guys were able to create at least 1% of what Stallman has created.

This blog makes up for more than 1% of the frustration Stallman has created. Well done LH.

FOSS IS DEAD

Anonymous said...

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Derek Smart, Derek Smart, DEREK SMART!!!

Anonymous said...

To all the dudes saying FOSS is DEAD, I don't think you get the point of the Blog, I bet my left ball LH loves the ideology that FOSS represents.

By ranting like spoiled bitch, he is expressing a lot of what people like me are thinking, but do not have the writing talent to put into words.

I am officially a fan of this dude/dudette...

Gez said...

system-config-samba helps a little, but yes, smb.conf kinda sucks.
I prefer NFS, but Ubuntu folks apparently decided to go forward with samba and take NFS out of the desktop shares (at least from the GUI).
Anyway, Gnome has a bug with shares. It hangs if a connected computer goes offline before the shares are unmounted. It's a bad bug and it directly affects the "user experience".
I like when you post your critics in this way. This is reasonable and in some extent, respectful.
The comments are a whole different story.

Scott Ruecker said...

I have never responded to any of your posts but I thought it about time to tell you that I think your hilarious, seriously, your really funny. I don't agree with much of what you say but I think you do make a good point every so often. Like your opinion of slashdot, I think it does suck that they would post an article about your blog but not link directly to it. Then again they have had their heads up their collective asses for some time now. But when your as cool as they are you can have your head buried up to the hilt inside your colon and still not see or smell the shit coming out of it. They suck as bad as you think Linux does. LOL!!

Anonymous said...

Guys, I worked with the Samba team for a while testing some of their new stuff, and honestly, I was surprised by the complexity of configuration files they use. Many of the options are not even documented in the manpage (which is huge anyway). After seeing htis, I think that the situation with samba configs is even worse: not only is it difficult to automate, but undocumented as well.

heraux said...

I got Samba working for some time - honestly - i cannot recall what option made it go - it was fast, it was nice.. i was even writing files to the storage..

What ended this perfect dance
with me and the box, i don't know.

i didn't change much..
except rebooting the box

please post one working
samba config - i will if i
get it working today

Anonymous said...

"Slashdot: I don't like you guys... it's a good place to find material"

Your opening lines say all that needs to be said about you and your article. You're an loud mouth asshole who loves attention, and I won't read anything you say before I shoot my mouth off about it.

Anonymous said...

If you have desperately tried the simplest possible smb.conf and it still doesn't work, perhaps it's not samba to blame but selinux is getting in the way. Try to switch off selinux temporarily:

echo 0 > /selinux/enforce

If that works and you want to keep selinux enabled, try a

chcon -t samba_share_t directory_name

on the shared directory.

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•Ÿˆäo‰ï‚¢ˆ¤’mo‰ï‚¢Šò•Œo‰ï‚¢Ã‰ªo‰ï‚¢ŽOdo‰ï‚¢•ºŒÉo‰ï‚¢‘åão‰ï‚¢˜a‰ÌŽRo‰ï‚¢Ž ‰êo‰ï‚¢‹ž“so‰ï‚¢“ޗǏo‰ï‚¢ŽRŒûo‰ï‚¢’¹Žæo‰ï‚¢“‡ªo‰ï‚¢‰ªŽRo‰ï‚¢L“‡o‰ï‚¢“¿“‡o‰ï‚¢ìo‰ï‚¢ˆ¤•Qo‰ï‚¢‚’mo‰ï‚¢

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Anonymous said...

•ŸˆäƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰ˆ¤’mƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰Šò•ŒƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰Ã‰ªƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰ŽOdƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰•ºŒÉƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰‘åãƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰˜a‰ÌŽRƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰Ž ‰êƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰‹ž“sƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰“ޗǃeƒŒƒNƒ‰ŽRŒûƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰’¹ŽæƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰“‡ªƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰‰ªŽRƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰L“‡ƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰“¿“‡ƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰ìƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰ˆ¤•QƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰‚’mƒeƒŒƒNƒ‰

Anonymous said...

•ŸˆäƒZƒtƒŒˆ¤’mƒZƒtƒŒŠò•ŒƒZƒtƒŒÃ‰ªƒZƒtƒŒŽOdƒZƒtƒŒ•ºŒÉƒZƒtƒŒ‘åãƒZƒtƒŒ˜a‰ÌŽRƒZƒtƒŒŽ ‰êƒZƒtƒŒ‹ž“sƒZƒtƒŒ“ޗǃZƒtƒŒŽRŒûƒZƒtƒŒ’¹ŽæƒZƒtƒŒ“‡ªƒZƒtƒŒ‰ªŽRƒZƒtƒŒL“‡ƒZƒtƒŒ“¿“‡ƒZƒtƒŒìƒZƒtƒŒˆ¤•QƒZƒtƒŒ‚’mƒZƒtƒŒ

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