Friday, July 11, 2008

Wild rationalizations

I was getting a little worried that I wouldn't have something appropriate to close of K-pride week with, but then sweet feces rained down from heaven. It's an article from Sebastian Kügler from the KDE board of directors, explaining the "11 myths of KDE 4".

Here we go...

Actually, KDE 4.0 is just the beginning. KDE 4.0 has the beginnings of a publicly usable desktop and applications. KDE 4.0 also marks the stability of the libraries and their programming interfaces so application developers can actively start using them in their application. The new features and frameworks need some time to be implemented in a user-visible way. In that light, KDE 4.0 marks the beginning of the availability of KDE4-technology-based applications.

Assuming that KDE 4.0 delivers the full possibilities of its libraries and frameworks to the user is unrealistic. The merit of the infrastructural work that has led up to 4.0 will be seen in the coming releases, with KDE 4.1 showing first signs of an increased pace of development thanks to the new foundations.

KDE 4.0 is the starting line, not the finishing line.

So it turns out, that in almost every other major software release every made, a .0 release is used to convey some semblance of completeness. Like it or not, it's convention. It's a language of sorts, used by software producers to communicate to their users. Yes, I know. .0 releases usually suck for any software. But in the majority of the cases, it's due to unintentional bugs. In other words, it's not by design. But you know, KDE decided it was so awesome that it could totally ignore this convention. .0 isn't anything. It's just the start, they said. We know it sucks. We told you so.

If that's not arrogance, I don't know what is. And they thought a few posts on blogs nobody reads would clarify it for the rest of the world. Yea. Uh huh. Please hold while I aim my clue cannons in your general direction.
This has been consistent in all communications. We only failed with KDE 4.0 if we measure the work based on others' criteria, not our clearly stated goals. We're glad that so many people eagerly anticipated the 4.0 release, but in some cases the expectations were heightened despite our efforts. We do understand the excitement that built up over 2 years, but we've actually had discussions on trying to meter/throttle people's exuberance and expectations for 4.0 so that they would not feel let down when 4.0 was released.
Well, apparently you didn't discuss enough. Because I think you kinda failed.
Let's look at it from a broader perspective for a while. Let's see it in the Grand Scheme of Things to Come. The big question that should come up is: couldn't we have released what will now be KDE 4.1 as KDE 4.0? If that would have been possible, it would surely have been the right choice. But it was not possible, because of several reasons.

Release early, release often. One of the pillars of Free Software development is to release your software as soon as it is useful to others, so people can jump in.

Nobody has ever promised that KDE 4.0 would be functionally equivalent to KDE 3.5. With KDE 4.0 we have delivered a stable set of libraries and a basic functional desktop. 4.0 in technical terms means: From this point on, our libraries will remain binary compatible until 5.0. Not releasing 4.0 at that point means holding back hundreds of application developers from porting and releasing their applications. Not releasing would hurt these applications - they wouldn't receive the attention to detail they deserved. We're talking about core applications like Dolphin, but also whole parts of KDE like the Educational applications, Graphics applications, and the games. Not releasing them would also mean less new contributors and users than they deserved - another thing we didn't want.


You guys are so amazingly wrong that, well, it's amazing.

Release early, release often is a well-known strategy, sure. But nowhere does it say release things in forms that will confuse users into thinking it is a complete release.

Yes you didn't say that 4.0 would have all of 3.5. But look at all the other software that's been released, like, ever. In most cases, (N+1).0 has all (or at least most) of the features of N.0 and a bit more. And those new features mostly work, as well as the old features. This is what users expect when you call it 4.0.

But actually, as far as I can tell, you guys called it 4.0 because you knew it had this effect. It's not release early, release often so that all the devs can better coordinate. Instead, it was call it 4.0 so that we can trick a bunch of users to test our fancy new library code even though it breaks all the features that they're used to. And if they fall for it, we'll just say that we warned them subtly.

As you have found, users don't care about a release that only lays the foundation for binary compatibility and has no features that they actually want to use. And guess what? That's also why people don't go for Vista. Do you have to copy everything that Microsoft does?

The argument that without a 4.0 release, downstream developers couldn't get to work is pure bullshit. Companies do this all the time. They release pre-release builds so that people can write new pieces on top. What is it about a 4.0 release that is suddenly going to make a bunch of developers start working on KDE4 versions of their apps? Nothing. It's still just as inconvenient. If they want to write a KDE4 version, they have to do a SVN checkout anyways.

And by the way, it's truly shocking that you guys have the audacity to bring up binary compatibility as any kind of justification. All open source projects seem to think binary compatibility means that old binary apps link and load. They always forget the crucial third part: the old apps also have to work. Making sure old binary apps work is a lot harder than making them link and load. You actually have to test things. But I know that's beyond y'all so I won't tire my fingers explaining it too much.
Yet the publicly perceived quality of KDE seems to concentrate on Plasma, the newest, but most visible component of KDE 4. For this kind of new technology, it simply takes a bit of time and feedback from users until the user experience we could deliver in the past can be reached.
Uh huh. 'round here I believe they call that a beta.
A second issue is packaging. KDE 4.0 is relatively hard to package, not due to it being that difficult - packaging it is far easier and faster than KDE 3.x. But it is new, and new things always require an adjusting period. CMake, SVN, many new dependencies, many new architectural pieces, changes in the internal structure of the major KDE packages like KDElibs and KDEbase...it'll take a while for packagers to get used to those. We probably can't expect distros to put out KDE 3.5.x-quality packages for at least a few months. By the time 4.1 is released, though, they will have some experience, and will hopefully get it done rather quickly. (If you want the proof - just check out a few different KDE 4.0 distributions...they differ wildly in terms of stability, features, default setup, and more.)
Oh it's the distro's fault is it? If you actually cared, you'd work to make packaing and distribution easier. But instead, you change stuff all over the place, and then blame the distros for not getting it right. Impressive is your foresight.
A third reason is for finding rare, obscure, or corner-case issues. Many of the problems in KDE 4.0 can and will be fixed by the KDE hackers. But many can't. By pushing the boundaries of technology, you'll be pushed back. We've exposed issues in drivers, architectural issues in X, window management, Qt, and more. Without an earlier release to start getting user feedback, these simply would've appeared in the delayed first release, and would've bit users just as hard as they're biting now.
Again. 'round here they call that a beta. Or maybe an alpha. Maybe you should have called it "KDE-4 Completely Untested Edition"
And finally, KDE is a very complex beast, technically and socially. It consists of hundreds of applications, an extensive development framework and a desktop on top of that and literally hundreds of contributors with diverse backgrounds. It is plain impossible that all those things happen to be finished at the same time. We were able to release a basic first version of the desktop along with the development framework and an already very good looking set of applications. We did fail in communicating well enough this complex situation. But then, we're software developers, we create software ...
And creating good software is not just about writing good code. It's about delivering it. Marketing it. Testing it. You guys are such a prominent open source project, and yet you continually show that world that you have no idea how to do anything except be architecture astronuts.
While the underlying technology provides lots of new means to interact with computers and will have even more ways of working with different sets of users on different devices, the desktop interface in KDE 4.0 and KDE 4.1 is mostly backwards compatible with desktops as we've seen them in the last 20 years, containing a panel to switch between applications, a menu launcher, and several bits of functionality such as the clock. Users are not forced to learn new paradigms unless they want to take advantage of new features such as the dashboard and applets.

The desktop interface has not been radically redesigned in the last twenty years. The KDE team is working on laying the groundwork for new and innovative ways of dealing with the desktop while providing the traditional ways of interacting with the desktop so current users are not alienated.
If the idea of desktop hasn't changed in 20 years, then why change your implementation every three? Do you know why even Windows Vista implements a 'classic' mode? It's because users get used to the pixels not just the "paradigms". They know what their close buttons and title bars look like. It matches how they all look in their training manuals. Not constantly changing things allows others to build on top of your work, to actually learn things, and maybe even document them. I think you guys should really go out into the real world and see how many people even understand what "minimize" and "maximize" mean. After 20 years, many people still don't even get the paradigms, and yet you're changing how everything looks, and relying on the fact that the paradigm is the same. It sounds like a fool-proof plan if you ask me.

KDE, as a Free Software project, is more open to its users than any other comparable software team. All mailing lists are open to suggestions, development can be closely followed through SVN, and developers are usually easily reachable for interested parties, either through their mailing lists, on IRC, or directly via email.

What does "open to its users" mean exactly? Because from your actions, it seems to mean that there's some web form that they can fill out to complain, but you won't really listen because you never really cared in the first place.

The developers do depend on precise information, however. Vague statements such as "I don't like the new foobar" are hard to address. Precise reports detailing current and expected behavior along with use cases (and sometimes a bit of patience) increase the odds of issues being addressed. Insulting, whining, or spreading FUD does no good to a developer's motivation to address issues; instead the usual effect is to cause the developer to become demotivated in regards to fixing a particular issue. Users that would like certain functionality in KDE 4 should be collaborative and helpful and open to new solutions.

Unbelievable. You guys totally botched the communication around your brand spanking new release, and yet your telling your users to exercise caution when communicating. That's rich. I wish I were that rich.

Also, I think you forgot a sentence: "Developers who wish to be helpful and respected should listen to and understand the actual problems that the users are facing."

In some cases, we need to balance out when to listen to certain users or not. After all, we are probably leaving some people comfort zone. There is always resistance to change, yet change is necessary for survival. A certain amount of room for innovation is needed, and in fact lies at the heart of Free Software. KDE 3.5 wouldn't be the stable product it is now without ignoring some of the voices once in a while, and KDE 4 would never become reality.

I believe ol' GWB said it more succinctly. "You're either with us, or you're against us."

But really, the best part is at the end...

"KDE should just have ported KDE 3.5 to Qt 4 and not add all that other experimental stuff right away"

This is not a stupid idea and it was heavily considered. The problem with it is two-fold: social and technical.

Socially speaking, it assumes redirecting development effort is effective. To a certain extent it is, but for quite a few developers not developing features often means not developing at all. Not everybody is good at low-level stuff (or willing to do it). This has bitten us and other projects in the past and present. The development of KDE 4 has been slower than it would've been if we would be able/willing to force developers to work on whatever some top-down managers think is good...but it's just not how FOSS works.
Have you guys heard of the old 20/80 rule? You spend 20% of your time implementing your features. Then 80% of the time testing them and debugging them. What you've pretty much told me in this paragraph is that you guys only do the 20 part, and nobody wants to do the 80 part, and that's how FOSS works. Thanks, really. You've explained a lot.

But just in case there's some sense in this whole article, let me hear out your technical arguments...

Technically speaking, two arguments. First, an only-ported release would in time have to be reworked again, so we couldn't promise binary compatibility, and the first release would be useless for development of third-party applications. It would really be nice for users, but a total waste of time from the point of view of developers - the progress of KDE as a development environment would be minimal at best. And that development environment happens to be the major focus of KDE 4.0 - we want to push the Free Desktop further (long-term vision).

As I've stated already, the kind of binary compatibility that you guys provide is not even useful. So why would anyone care? And besides, which binary-only app that uses KDE libraries is everyone clamoring for? I can't think of a single one.

You also claim that this work would be a total waste of time for developers. Well, go ahead, rewrite the code. You'll have wasted a bunch of users time who bothered to learn your crappy desktop in the first place, and then you'll end up wasting your developers time too because all your remaining users will have left in disgust. Oh wait. I get it. Are you guys secretly trying to see how much total time you can waste? Haha. That's HILARIOUS.

A second problem would be the fact the developers would have to port a huge amount of old code which wouldn't be needed on the new platform. Prime example here are KDesktop and Kicker. Many users asked the KDE developers to port Kicker and KDesktop to Qt 4, but they didn't because it would be a huge job and in the long run unmaintainable anyway. In other words, it would delay the release of Plasma by at least another year, with no long-term benefit at all. The same goes for audio and video capabilities, all chat and PIM related capabilities, etc. In other words, a LOT.

No long-term benefit? How about the benefit that your users will love you because they will get incremental new features. And then maybe they'll actually believe that FOSS works and help you get more users and contributors. But no, back to the sad reasoning that is all too typical of KDE. "Ohhh its too hard! Let's start over! Fuck the users!"

There's some brain cells in the back of my head that secretly hope that your users will continue to protest against you and drive your whole damn project into irrelevance. Unfortunately, those brain cells are getting louder and louder.

254 flames:

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Anonymous said...

First!

This is really a spot-on analysis Linux Hateer Dude! Excellent work!

KDE makes freaking HUGE changes for every major release. 4.0 is the worst yet. He's apparently right about no one wanting to do the boring task of actually maintaining a stable code base. I guess that's just not fun enough for the KDE kidz.

But it's also why I'll never use KDE.

jeremiah said...

"K-pride week." I love this blog.

Anonymous said...

Awesome. Good point about the 80/20 rule as it applies to developing features. Writing features is a lot more fun than testing them, debugging them and making them rock solid. That kind of work can be tedious, frustrating and hard. The 80% works is why you have to pay me to develop software. The 20% stuff I'll do for fun and for free. Makes sense to me that this is all the FOSS people want to do -- and why it sucks when they release it. They want us to do the 80% work. Screw that.

Alexei said...

I see they're repeating this KDE 4.0 is not KDE4 crap again. Disgusting, just sick. Ever heard of beta releases, jerks?

Anonymous said...

Hey! Now I want a G-pride week!

Anonymous said...

I thought most of the criticism this post was weak sauce, since I've been following the KDE blog and much of what the dev said is consistent with the KDE philosophy of software development and coding.

That said, you made a brilliant point about the 80/20 rule. It's a criticism I've always had of KDE and wasn't aware was actually a guideline. The problem with KDE has been that pretty much all their applications are simply too featureful. This is because the unwritten rule for KDE application development has been to target both programmers and normal users. Which is why most KDE apps are a mess. The KDE developers spend so much time actually developing features, they forget to see how it makes the application more complicated to use, and in the absence of any formal interface guideline - the KDE apps just become a recipe for disaster. The team has always confused complexity with flexibility, that mucking up their apps with two or three toolbars and adding a terminal in a text editor is the Linux-way, when it only makes the application unecassarily different for normal users. The Gnome team are much better at this rule, which is why Gnome apps have a lot less features than their KDE apps, but are a hell of a lot more stable and useful, and they just get the job done.

Colin said...

Features! Features!
Sometimes it seems that's all that matters.
I prefer "evolution, not revolution" as dlg@ from OpenBSD said once in one of his presentations.

segedunum said...

So it turns out, that in almost every other major software release every made, a .0 release is used to convey some semblance of completeness.

Errrrr, no it isn't. That's how we ended up with Vista, and with OS X 10.0. The difference here is that the KDE people admitted what the .0 release was going to be like up front, unlike others.

I just wonder when people are going to learn from the last twenty-five years of software development and understand that a long line of beta releases doesn't fucking work in terms of getting the feedback you really need.

In addition, complete according to what guidelines? Yours? Doesn't work with software. Software gets released into major versions when developers feel that requirements and milestones have been met. Boogie woo.

But nowhere does it say release things in forms that will confuse users into thinking it is a complete release.

Picked out the key word there. Can you define 'complete' for everyone and what it means? Errrr, no, you can't.

Meantime, I will continue to use successive versions of KDE 3.5, as will the vast majority who don't download tarballs of some KDE 4 release, or who faff about with their package management systems to get it, and end up using KDE 4.x as usage and critical mass increases naturally.

segedunum said...

The Gnome team are much better at this rule, which is why Gnome apps have a lot less features than their KDE apps, but are a hell of a lot more stable and useful, and they just get the job done.

Unfortunately, that's another extreme altogether. No Windows or OS X user is going to take Gnome seriously when it has substantially less features than what they already have on their existing desktop system.

Oh, and I wouldn't exactly call Evolution stable these days ;-).

DamnRight said...

"Precise reports detailing current and expected behavior along with use cases (and sometimes a bit of patience) increase the odds of issues being addressed. Insulting, whining, or spreading FUD does no good to a developer's motivation to address issues; instead the usual effect is to cause the developer to become demotivated in regards to fixing a particular issue."

Note the contempt in that 'increase the odds' remark. 'Bitch only the way we want you to bitch, with the appropriate amount of worship/respect/cocksucking, or we don't give a fuck and your toy stays broken. Ah well, we don't give a fuck anyway.'

Awesome. Is that a corollary of the 'collaborators not users' mantra? It's incredible how backwards these guys have it. They behave like there's no actual need for a working DE for Linux.

Porting 3.5 to qt4 - shedding cruft and de-uglyfying it a bit in the process - was a sane, sensible choice. No way we'll go down that path.

Then again, we are talking about something that sits above X (dude, please have an X hate week sometime. The only problem might be that everything is still as in the Unix Haters'). Birds of a feather ...

DamnRight said...

Segendunum: OSX 10.0 was an abomination, and is an exception. Only Apple could've pulled off a stunt like this. Everywhere else, a .0 release means at least that it's feature complete (no minor updates will introduce major new features, in other words) and it had some kind of testing. Basically that it's not a developer preview-prerelease. I find the constant blurring of that stuff worrying.

Anonymous said...

Wow... LH, you would make a terrible developer.

Alexei said...

>> dude, please have an X hate week sometime

I second that.

Platypus said...

SK is not wrong when he says that many FOSS developers only want to develop new code and suck at the "other 80%" of testing, documenting, etc. I've been saying the same myself for years. It's not a statement of preference; it's an acknowledgment of reality. Also, it's not only true of KDE. It's true of every other FOSS project too, including all of the likely alternatives to KDE - I can talk about spurious dependencies and big rafts of options and casual breakage in GNOME too, if you like. Even paid commercial developers aren't immune, and try to get as close to this model as they can. Who hasn't worked with people who are always working on their own favorite "skunk works" projects (or for that matter on FOSS projects unrelated to their work) while shirking their official responsibilities? I've been in the business a while, and I don't remember a job where there wasn't at least one such. It's a universal developer tendency, and as much as I think the "leaders" of the KDE team deserve to be taken down a peg or ten, I think it's perfectly valid to think about how to deal with this tendency when you lack the Big Stick of being able to fire people.

Anonymous said...

I don't get the thing about Vista. It was buggy on release, and it was not exactly a speed demon, but it fucking worked, and it was actually feature complete. There's no resemblance to the huge mess that KDE4 is.

This post sums up why I don't use Linux anymore anyway: KDE has intersting features but is a usability broken mess, while Gnome is so brain dead simple that doesn't offer me anything over Windows. I mean, come on, if I'm gonna use Firefox and three other basic apps I can just do in on Windows where my hardware works without my head exploding and the fonts don't look like ass.

Joey said...

First, an only-ported release would in time have to be reworked again, so we couldn't promise binary compatibility, and the first release would be useless for development of third-party applications. It would really be nice for users, but a total waste of time from the point of view of developers - the progress of KDE as a development environment would be minimal at best.

If it would have been really nice for users, then shouldn't that be enough? Who are they writing the software for? Developers? Maybe that is why Linux is fail...

Tyrone Rex said...

Spot on again - though you are probably way too kind, LH.

Next week, can you please do my desktop of choice? Been a GNOME (l)user by choice for many years now, and I'm much satisfied over the alternatives - but there is still lots to poke at, and I would love a G-Pride week.

Some easy targets:

* Evolution
* Tabs in apps like Epiphany. By design made to mysteriously disappear and be hard to navigate (2-click) and unlike any other tab apps - BUT: it's EASIER to close many tabs rapidly. And that's the only rationale they could come up with as an excuse.
* Epiphany again, just follow the mailing list. They can't do crap, because it's all Mozillas fault, and anything Firefox does, we can't do because they are the enemy. Webkit will magically solve it all though. Just hold your breath...
* Tomboy/F-Spot - pretty worthless apps, does not do anything spectacular, but still forced into GNOME core, so we are stuck with an extra Mono runtime in many distros. Just because some people like C# (or Microsoft/Miguel).
* Spatial paradigm, which noone wants, but is said to somehow be theoretically "superior". As soon as anyone says "superior", you know they must be right.
* People interpreting the "G" in HIG to mean "LAW", no matter how absurd the result.
* gnome-screensaver - "any screensaver that needs to be configured is broken" - including say changing a text message that is scrolled or choosing a color you like.
* The Keyring.
* powertop actually warns me that GNOME's powermanager wastes power.
* People interpreting the guideline to treat an option as a potential bug that may instead have a non-option solution as LAW. That is a very good guideline btw, but it's often abused by people with no understanding of it. Spolsky and Pennington both got it, wrote well about it, and then people fucked it up completely.

I guess you can come up with many more. And please so!

Haos said...

Yup, they created that Kshit for themselves. L-H pointed out one of the KDE dev`s blog, stating quite clearly, that KDE needs only "contributors", with users being just "tolerated", as they might turn into future contributors.

They dont give a damn about users. Seems to me, that they are gonna drop KDE 3.x soon, to force everyone onto KDE 4 Alpha... cos only braindead are gonna actually go on and install that broken piece of crap.

Well, screw them!

Anonymous said...

I wonder how many developers read this blog. I am afraid that very few - they should read it. Maybe a small survey?
a) I'm a FOSS (l)user
b) I'm a FOSS developer
c) I hate this blog
etc.

Benoit Jacob said...


So it turns out, that in almost every other major software release every made, a .0 release is used to convey some semblance of completeness. Like it or not, it's convention.


No, it's not how it works in "almost every other major software release" and it's not a "convention".

Think GCC 4.0.0 : it was a major architectural change, but not a very good end-user release. However it allowed a much better pace of development, and GCC 4.1 was already much better.

Linux 2.6.0 : same thing.

So you see, what KDE did, making 4.0.0 the starting line not the finish line, is not exceptional at all.

Just because some other projects wait until perfection before they call it 1.0 (and some KDE projects do so, think K3b or Digikam) doesn't mean it's the only universal good (tm) convention.

Anonymous said...

Come on, man. You were funny. I liked your posts. Why'd you have to go and ruin it all like that? I mean, you take an artucle and rebut it and all you do is come off as a whiner. Everyone releases .0 releases that aren't as done as they'd like. This isn't just freetards or whatever you want to call them doing this. Microsoft, VMWare, Google, all of them do this crap (well, Google just marks things beta forever, but that's just meaningless at this point).

Just go back to ranting. Rebuttals aren't your forte.

DamnRight said...

I guess the gist of it is that concocting pseudo-legit narratives that happen to just fit around your project's deficiencies is goddamn pathetic. The sane part of the world, who wants stuff that works, just watches with a mixture of amusement and regret at the loss of potential, or just skips.

The only people who are affected are the ones you don't need to convince anyway, since they already chose to believe or put up with it.

Ugly fonts in the name of freedom and choice - yay!

blackbelt_jones said...

Yeah, you don't really have to go through the whole long article, rebut every little thing, even when you don't really have much but lame sarcasm and thereby create a super long tirade that's only worth skimming for the funny parts.

KDE is responsible for their own public relations, because that's what Public Relations is. When you hold the public responsible for your public relations, that's the definition of bad public relations.

KDE 3 is alive and well. It's the default for every major distro. There's a new version (3.5.10) coming out in a couple of months, but almost no one knows this, because KDE can't stop pushing KDE4 long enough to inform people who are basically interested in keeping their computers working.

Anonymous said...

Sorry for off topic, but I think y'all Linux haters might be interested in this:

Xandros buys Linspire – What does it mean for Linux?

Ramsees said...

KDE developers also fail in explain what is wrong with the actual desktop and how they will fix it, they fail to explain how this new paradigm will help the user to work faster, they fail to explain how a user will work with basic things like cheking e-mail or browsing the web faster than the actual behavior, they just talk about a new paradigm w/o explaining the benefits of it.

A folder view won't help the user to interact better with their documents, is just a toy to clutter your desktop, desktop activities won't empower user, it will just waste their time expending more time trying to configure it and won't get any beneffit of it since 99.9% of the users use their computers forjust one kind of activities grouped in a single desktop configuration, activities is just another "look how cool it looks but also how useless it is".

Instead of improving the desktop experience in a so drastical way witch won't do anything to improve the user experience besides just making it look "pretty" provide in a sutil way to those litle improvements that makes the user relax and be more productive.

Desktop evolution will come, but it won't come from the KDE developers, you can be sure of that.

thecodewitch said...

Such sickening arrogance - after reading the Sebastian Kügler article on groklaw, I got the distinct impression that the writer must have been sucking his own dick while he was writing it.

After witnessing an attitude like that, how can anyone be expected to take linux seriously?

Anonymous said...

I would like to say, though...that I'm looking forward to KDE 4.2.

Someday, I expect that Plasma will finally mature. And when that does happen, I look forward to the best of both worlds --

A sane (with icons) desktop, but still able to integrate content into it -- weather widgets, RSS feeds, stuff like that -- in a way that is _built_ natively into the interface, as opposed to yet another CPU-hogging layer of interface tools (like Google Desktop, Yahoo Widgets, or Windows Sidebar).

Why 4.2? Sadly enough, I still don't suspect 4.1 will be incredibly stable -- they're still bringing in 3.5 functionality, it's bound to be buggy. In addition, the apps that were re-introduced in 4.1 (Amarok, Kontact) will finally have some time to stabilize a bit.

Yes, their release system is horrid. But someday KDE4 will be usable, even pleasant -- and that someday is coming in the next year.

Anonymous said...

@ramsees

Wait, you mean spending forever trying to properly implement what is essentially just a file browser window without a title bar isn't worth the developers' effort or the user's confusion and frustration? :)

@LH

You missed the real attack points. If they'd named 4.0 3.92-pre instead, you'd have nothing to whine about this week. The real problems are things like:
- KDE hyped up the 4.0 release themselves, then blamed the users for having high expectations
- KDE told users not to report bugs, then blamed the users for all the bugs they didn't report
- KDE doesn't even have anywhere to go. It's failed from the start, because its highest aspirations are rotating analog clocks.
- KDE 3.5.x was never fully functional (did they get around to fixing spellcheck yet, even?), after SO many years, and now they're making an even more buggy, more useless, more cluttered, more annoying, less featurefull environment. They went from shit to stinkier shit which doesn't even aim to be anything other than shit. So the BEST we'll get, even if their greatest dreams are realized, is still shit.

Oh, and Aaron released another one of his shitty videos trying to "explain" the folder view and how it's better than desktop view...but he didn't explain anything, plasma was still slow and buggy even in his video, and the only purpose the video actually served was to make me hate him and his stupid project even more.

LIS said...

I found a way to deal with the FOSS mess:
I don't get frustrated anymore, because after a decade, I've got tired of waiting for anything useful to come out of that movement.

Today, when FOSS is mentioned, in any context, I know that there's a better propriety solution for the problem FOSS is trying to solve, and that its price will be well worth the time I'll spend trying to use the FOSS alternative.

If someone claims to use Gnu/Linux, advocate FOSS, or claim superiority for the bazaar development models, I just point a laugh.

Anonymous said...

Good post. Actually not retarded this time, unlike all your other posts.

Just one point though. KDE 3.x apps work just fine in KDE 4, since they load the old libs. So your jab about binary compatibility is unfounded.

Anonymous said...

Tomboy rocks.

Anonymous said...

"...After 20 years, many people still don't even get the paradigms, and yet you're changing how everything looks, and relying on the fact that the paradigm is the same. It sounds like a fool-proof plan if you ask me."

I agreed with your rant until this last comment. If there's going to be any change worth making in the desktop environment, then it might as well come in a form that ignores those users who are used to other solutions.

And lets face it, an implementation that isn't clear enough for most people after 20 years is obviously wrong, and needs to be replaced.

The minimize/maximize thing, for example, could have never existed. Actually, it's redundant because you already have a window switcher, commands to maximize and close applications, others to show the desktop, and the list goes on. So what if people don't get it? The paradigm behind minimize and maximize is that of window management in the desktop, and the idea that windows can be handled as objects within a virtual desktop. The final implementations of this idea should be diverse and flexible enough as to adjusts to the needs and preferences of particular users with specific tasks in mind. Right now we only have two common paradigms in the desktop, the text driven, and the graphical one, and both suck on their own.

So, yeah. Let KDE screw with it's users, somebody has to.

segedunum said...

KDE developers also fail in explain what is wrong with the actual desktop and how they will fix it

Because littering your desktop with ten dozen shortcuts, not organised in any way, and having documents and files actually downloaded directly to your desktop is shit. That's why.

A folder view won't help the user to interact better with their documents, is just a toy to clutter your desktop, desktop activities won't empower user, it will just waste their time expending more time.....

I'm so pleased that you've taken a lot of time observing users and producing real in depth studies that backs that up and tells us that no one needs to try anything new, nor does software need to help users organise anything. Phew.

I mean, I thought software and computers were there to organise things so you didn't have to because we are all lazy buggers. I'm so glad that everyone out there is so happy to spend several days personally organising the clusterfuck that is their desktop and personal directory, and finding out just what the hell they were thinking when they created those documents no one seems to know anything about. It's comforting to know that a significant proportion of people out there have telepathy enabled as well.

Thanks man. That's a real fucking revelation.

since 99.9% of the users use their computers for just one kind of activities

Wow. People only do one kind of activity on their computers? So some people just read e-mail, another group just browse the web and use web applications and another just just manages office documents. Wow. With all that work, it's small wonder companies are outsourcing jobs.

I really didn't know that. I'm so pleased that you've spent hard earned time and effort observing a wide cross-section of users using their computers to come up with this stuff.

Alexei said...

Benoit Jacob, is it even worth mentioning all those companies that ship their .0 products feature-complete and (relatively) stable?

This IS a good convention and what KDE guys did (with a lightshow and trumpets I might add) is just plain asking for user complains.

But then again, they don't really need users.

segedunum said...

OSX 10.0 was an abomination, and is an exception. Only Apple could've pulled off a stunt like this. Everywhere else, a .0 release means at least that it's feature complete

Apple got away with OS X 10.0 because they had regular point releases and updates to the point where people just forgot about .0 when it turned into something better. They charged for the privilege as well. It's so funny that people think that Apple got away with this - in hindsight! :-)

Also, I don't see where feature complete is defined anywhere.

I find the constant blurring of that stuff worrying.

It's been blurred constantly in the software world since people started packaging software in a box and selling it. In the open source world it gets totally blurred, because what happens is that people start really using a piece of software when it's good enough, and that's when distros really start using it. That has always been the case.

If your distro doesn't ship with KDE 4, stop worrying and don't try and fuck about with your package management system to try and get it. If it does ship with KDE 4.x and it isn't good enough for you, don't use that distro.

I really hope you've been using a lot of lube over the years, because if you've been buying into any major release of a piece of software you've been getting fucked over as all the features you thought you would get are bumped indefinitely to a a completely new version - which is effectively version .0 all over again.

They then use you for their actual beta testing.

segedunum said...

is it even worth mentioning all those companies that ship their .0 products feature-complete and (relatively) stable?

No, because if you find that then you've found fucking Shergar or Lord Lucan, and they will *all* be small companies in niche markets if anyone manages to do it.

Alexei said...

>> No, because if you find that then you've found fucking Shergar or Lord Lucan, and they will *all* be small companies in niche markets if anyone manages to do it.

Oh rheeeally? Well, MS is one such company, even if Vista turned out badly (and like, did they intend to release an OS which would "lay foundations and establish frameworks", without the functionality?). What was the last time they did it? ME?

Office releases - ok. Visual Studio - works fine (98, .NET (2002), 2003, 2005, 2008)

Adobe with it's Phtoshop? A niche company?

And what about Firefox? Is that a niche application? Because, you know, 3.0 just came out and works great...

Ramsees said...

@segedunum

lol you are the same guy that espends his life justiftying KDE in every topic he finds in OSNEWS.COM, and the one that has an anti-GNOME and anti-Mono agenda, the one that things everytopic is his personal blog and put endless of meaningless posts.

It is wortless to even try to argu with your narrowed mind, because you re so brainwatched already.

What's next, the other troll superstoned will show up in support?

With or w/o your trolling my point stands.

Fare well, wll know troll segedunum.

Keith J. Farmer said...

Anonymous said...
Wow... LH, you would make a terrible developer.

.....

I see nothing that says one way or the other, but in my experience he'd be a great program manager or user community evangelist.

In response to the other Anonymous:

- 8 years in the industry (taught myself BASIC in '82 -- ah, the memories)
- was using Linux by '94
- currently functioning as Sr Dev/Architect

I love this blog. I want to like Linux, but the fact is that it's a platform based on developer masturbation, and most of them aren't even good at it. I swear the numbness they feel while typing is because their hands lost interest.

Seriously. I only came to appreciate Windows once I realized I could actually get something done that *didn't* require programming.

Anonymous said...

Some Anonymous said:

I would like to say, though...that I'm looking forward to KDE 4.2.

Someday, I expect that Plasma will finally mature. And when that does happen, I look forward to the best of both worlds --


But of course, by the time that happens Plasma will have hit some invisible wall that makes it a poor choice for KDE5. And another brand new attempt will be made to replace it.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Linux. Lordy.

Alexei said...

Keith J. Farmer - we are of the same mind :)

Anonymous said...

So they put KDE 4.0 out as a gold release when it's half done, and didn't expect a backlash?

They must be smoking some pretty bad granola.

Horatio_Hellpop said...

//if I'm gonna use Firefox and three other basic apps I can just do in on Windows where my hardware works without my head exploding and the fonts don't look like ass.//

Brilliant synopsis of my choice to abandon freetardism on the desktop as well. Vista bitch-slaps any distro on the desktop. HARD.

Now, on the server ... it's RHEL or nothing.

Anonymous said...

Wasn't there a KDE4 release party or some shit?

Wonderboy™ said...

"Sweet Feces Rained Down from Heaven"

My God, that is comedic GOLD!

Seriously.

Anonymous said...

"Desktop evolution will come, but it won't come from the KDE developers, you can be sure of that"

Maybe, or maybe not. But, there is a good chance it will come from FOSS. Windows and Apple's desktops don't change much. KDE seems to be at least trying new ideas and concepts, whether they work out or not people should wait till at least 4.2 until they decide whether or not to shit on it. I use 3.5.9 and it hasn't let me down yet.

segedunum said...

lol you are the same guy that espends his life justiftying KDE in every topic he finds in OSNEWS.COM

I'm so pleased you are able to respond in a really logical and thoughtful manner to my complete destruction of your totally nonsensical and complete pile of dog turd.

Thanks for telling me that I'm right in your own completely unique way.

It is wortless to even try to argu with your narrowed mind, because you re so brainwatched already.

Owned. Congratulations sweetheart. You've just kissed my ass and told everyone I'm right :-).

If you want to respond and actually have something to say, you know how you can do it.

segedunum said...

Oh rheeeally? Well, MS is one such company, even if Vista turned out badly

Jesus titty fucking Christ. They've been doing it since Windows 1.0 sweetheart, and even Windows XP was what Windows 2000 should have been to start off with.

(and like, did they intend to release an OS which would "lay foundations and establish frameworks", without the functionality?).

Errrrr, yer. Windows 7 and probably Windows 8 will be what Vista should have been to start off with - built off the same foundations. That's why businesses aren't moving to Vista. They know the score now. Congratulations. You just got owned.

Office releases - ok. Visual Studio - works fine (98, .NET (2002), 2003, 2005, 2008)

Visual Studio 2002 was a steaming pile of dog shit. 2003 was your service pack. 2005 was a steaming pile of dog shit. 2008 is the bugfix release.

Office releases? What do you think 2007 is? If you jump in with a new office release that changes its default format to something no one currently uses in the same product line then you're a tosser.

Because, you know, 3.0 just came out and works great...

No it doesn't. There's was already a catalogue of minor releases planned as soon as 3.0 came out to fix a few annoying bugs and security issues that weren't caught.

Anonymous said...

"Sweet Feces Rained Down from Heaven"

How can you expect a little respect if you do not respect what others write?

Did you write worldwide quality software to criticize with plenty of hate and sarcasm? I do not think so, because if you would have done it, you would respect the KDE developer's work.

Have you read the Unix hater's handbook "Antiforeword"?

Everything written there applies to you:

"your book [blog] is a pudding stuffed with apposite observations, many well-conceived. Like excrement, it contains enough undigested nuggets of nutrition to sustain life for some. But it is not a tasty pie: it reeks too much of contempt and of envy. Bon appetit!"

Alexei said...

LOL, this place is anything but polite, if you don't like it, why keep reading?

As for your comments.. I don't know about LH, I grew to see Linux and related projects (KDE included) as a grandiose underachievement.

Anonymous said...

Ramsees stop smoking your own pole.

KDE does suck in general, but how can anyone like M$ crap for their recreational computing.

Windows x.x.x.x is just plain ugly and fucked up in its implementation i.e. my girlfriends MS laptop sometimes crashes right after startup...and it says "designed for Windows XP" on the case...how fucked up is that?

Also, perhaps all you Linux-hating wankstains would like a refund?

rockmelinuxdamus said...

Jesus titty fucking Christ. They've been doing it since Windows 1.0 sweetheart, and even Windows XP was what Windows 2000 should have been to start off with.

And even then windows 2000 was fully functional for millions and millions of people. Yes it got even better and more refined as time went by but it didn't start out as a useless steaming pile of 4.0 pre alpha code.

When you learn the difference between apples and oranges you come back and let us know ummkay.

Anonymous said...

Well, think about it like this: it's free, so either you will do the testing or you won't get anything. If you don't like it go buy Vista/Leo.

Alexei said...

At least you're honest. Unlike that legion of FOSS zealots out there.

Anonymous said...

I love how you complain about "idiots" who suggest forking projects and then complain about the response that the KDE team make about why they won't fork the project.

you purposely took their quote out of context, nice way to violate your reader's trust. but of course all the intelligent readers know you only care about making money by attracting as much attention as possible through FUD

Alexei said...

Its nice to see that you follow the glorious luser tradition of ad hominem attacks.

(BTW, I'm not LH)

Johan Hernandez said...

Excellent work!
This blog rules!

Haos said...

"Windows x.x.x.x is just plain ugly and fucked up in its implementation i.e. my girlfriends MS laptop sometimes crashes right after startup..."

Using your luser arguments:
- its your fault, because it works for me;
- you must be doing something wrong, because it works for me;
- you have a hardware malfunction;
- ZOMG i have over 400 NT installs and they work without problems, its your looser lack of skills dimwat!

Eat it, shorty.


"Also, perhaps all you Linux-hating wankstains would like a refund?"

Yes, give me back my time i wasted on Linux!

Haos said...

"Well, think about it like this: it's free, so either you will do the testing or you won't get anything. If you don't like it go buy Vista/Leo."

It promises miracles, whereas in reality its a timewaster. I prefer XP on lappy and Windows 2003 on my desktop/router box. It works. I have not a single issue with it. My uptime is counted in months for BOTH PC`s. Both installs are over 2 years old yet they show NOT A SINGLE sign of stalling, slowing down. Eat that, shorty.

Anonymous said...

Even when I could agree with most of the criticism in the article and in the comments, I think that you guys forget that open source developers in many cases contributing for fun, no because they are being paid for doing so.

Therefore, they have the right to whatever they want an no obligation to do anything other people wants.

Even if I don't like what they are doing and the decisions they are taking, I respect the idea that for them it was more important to explore new ideas than provide the features other people wanted.

I someone wants something in KDE, it is easy: go and code it! Not really, it is an open source code, you can actually do so. But yes, it is far better and easier to complain.

Disclaimer: I'm not a KDE developer, not even a user (even when I used to be)

Alexei said...

Look, its okay to just code "for the fun of it", its not okay to promise heaven and earth but deliver a beta release (at best) marked as .0

As for the "go ahead and code it" idea, its not even funny. Do you not realize how much effort it would take to maintain a fork? Yeah, the code is out there, it is available, but where do I get the time to read, understand, learn, develop, test, release..?

segedunum said...

And even then windows 2000 was fully functional for millions and millions of people. Yes it got even better and more refined as time went by

Yet again, we come back to defining 'functional'.

What do you think NT 4 was even prior to Windows 2000? It was Microsoft's huge beta testing programme in getting an OS up and running that didn't completely suck, and it had a lot of well known problems that required six service packs no less. Why weren't all those problems sorted by the first official build? I hope you enjoyed paying to be part of that programme, as well as Windows Workgroups and the somewhat less than 'functional' NT 3.5 ;-).

but it didn't start out as a useless steaming pile of 4.0 pre alpha code.

You got a desktop with 4.0. You got a file manager. You could run applications on it such as Firefox as you always could. Who are you to decide what is pre-alpha or functional or not?

People would get KDE 4.0 when their distros shipped KDE 4.0 as default, just as Microsoft has internal builds of their desktop components and they decide what to ship with a final version of Windows. Most didn't. No problem.

When you learn the difference between apples and oranges you come back and let us know ummkay.

When you actually start understanding how software is developed, how open source development is done in the open and usage is dictated when distros and others feel confident in making KDE 4 their default desktop, and not by tossers fannying around with their package management system to get KDE 4 and whining about it, give us a call.

Anonymous said...

"where do I get the time to read, understand, learn, develop, test, release..?"

Perhaps by refraining from posting countless useless comments on stupid websites?

Anonymous said...

KDE 4.1 is going to be the greatest DE up to now,... (well, except aqua). Just my opinion.

Anonymous said...

Well, KDE 4.1 (RC1) looks nice so far, at least for me. With this article you hit all the KDE-hating Gnomeuser right in their heart. KDE4 isn't ready...uh...KDE4 is a buggy software...uhuh. Know what? I use it and since I do that, I realized how antique Gnome is.

"You're either with us, or you're against us.". This is a original quote from Hermann Göring, also used a lot by Adolf Hitler.

Alexei said...

To: anonymous July 16, 2008 12:28 PM

OMZG!! I'm pwned!! What an argument!!1 Now FOSS totally rulezz!!1

Of course you realize your lame argument has nothing to do with reality, several minutes a day ain't gonna make you a KDE (or whatever) fork developer AND tester AND maintainer.

In short: go try reading any C source more complicated then Hello world. When you're done, come back.

r_a_trip said...

Well, KDE 4.1 (RC1) looks nice so far, at least for me. With this article you hit all the KDE-hating Gnomeuser right in their heart. KDE4 isn't ready...uh...KDE4 is a buggy software...uhuh. Know what? I use it and since I do that, I realized how antique Gnome is.

I've also looked at KDE 4.1(RC) and yes it’s a desktop with a lot of rough edges (or Kubuntu messed it up royally). It has some bling bling and it might mature into something usable.

Still, no matter how much rationalization the KDE team throws at it, it was released too early and without proper warning. It should have been released with bright yellow stickers saying "For Developers Only". The 4.0 marking put a lot of people on the wrong track.

To say that KDE 4 is a failure is too early from a technical viewpoint, but is has been one gigantic PR disaster. To add insult to injury, when the KDE team said KDE only needs developers and contributors, they just poured a few gallons of gasoline on the raging flames. If they don't need users, why release it publicly at all? Just keep it an internal wankfest.

My preferred DE maybe antiquated and run by interface Nazi's in the eyes of the iPod generation, but at least it is an excellent, out of the way application launcher with a lot of sane defaults. I have nothing against bling for those who want it, but from a practical viewpoint, transparency, icon folders and clock widgets don't help me run my browser, my office suite and my DTP or media player better. I use an OS to run apps, not to muck about with the desktop. (Yes, I’m over thirty, most of you will get there as well.)

Gnome felt sane after years of KDE 3. Thank you Canonical for Ubuntu and thank you SuSE for being bought by Novell. If SuSE wouldn’t have been bought, I wouldn’t have abandoned them (because of Novell) and I probably wouldn’t have known how good Gnome was.

Do I hate KDE? No. It’s just that the desktop part of the project became irrelevant to my day-to-day computing. I’ll happily use Qt/KDE apps if they are of use to me though.

Ramon Antonio said...

KDE 4.0 was released too soon but...it was needed to reach amazing graphical capabilities that now we have at our service. Will take some time to show what can be done but gonna see great changes every week.

I think users of KDE should participate in the community. If you think anything can be improved on usability you just write an article in your blog, no need to code. You can also subscribe to a bunch of KDE developer blogs to check what they are working on and comments can be used as user feedback.

With KDE3 series many things couldn't be done but now you have all this at the service of your imagination.

Anonymous said...

You guys talk like you needed to pay to get KDE4... be serious. Nobody here is forcing you to try anything: you don't like it and you don't want to help? Ok, but don't whine. Otherwise, give some help because you know, nobody is getting payed to bring YOU a desktop environment. And so many times people forget this.

V said...

Short of gratuitous use of the word "cuz," I luvz you, Linux Hater.

You point out exactly the problem with FOSS; all the fun stuff for the devs with none of the hard stuff for debuggers. The "users" are supposed to do the hard stuff? We haven't quite gotten to the point where everyone knows how to program. Maybe if we get some more of those XO Laptops out there where people can read the source code of the apps they use (which, if I recall correctly, STILL doesn't work), maybe. Just maybe.

And you want the fun, sad part? A sizable portion of professional software development doesn't follow the 20/80 rule at all. Even better are the stories of outsourcing debug to overseas teams ('cause it's hard work we don't want to do), who basically stall and say, "Sorry, we have to rewrite everything because it just doesn't work." Maybe because you don't want to do the hard work of debugging, yes?

mozgreen said...

I'm not a techie but have to use windos at work every day. It's alright.
Coming home to the missus, kids and Gnome on Ubuntu is the highlight of the day.
My 10yr old has a vista laptop but does he use it? Only games he can't get to work on Hardy.
I left Winders Hell at 98 and am not going back. As a proud 'luser' (we Brits always love an underdog) I have no intention of going back to Windies.
As the Google bloke says - keep up the good work. I have a life.

mozgreen said...

And why would I want to pay a shed load of dosh for a mac (osx or not)

Huri said...

Great post. I may not agree with everything you post here, but you definitely have a lot of good points.

Now the scary part. I am a desktop Linux user. I even run that oh-so-naughty distribution of Ubuntu (and have been since November of 2004 when I switched from Gentoo (which I had turned to from Linux-From-Scratch). I started using Linux in 1995, with Slackware. Now that was painful. As much as there is a lot of work to do, it has certainly improved since then.

I've been a pretty exclusive Gnome user since 2004, before which I played with other desktops. I was a user of KDE 1 and 2, but never did like version 3. I have tried KDE 4.0 and it is definitely not ready for end users.

I'm not as anti-Windows as some people (although at one time I was) and still have a copy of Windows XP on a separate computer (or as we call it the PC Gaming Console, as Linux Gaming is a joke).

Anyway, I think there is a lot of religious bickering going on in this comments. Ubuntu works for me, and offers me a simple desktop from which I can do what I need to on a day to day basis. Windows gives me a great gaming platform. To quote the Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie, "Every OS Sucks".

*shrug*

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