Tuesday, August 12, 2008

Bundle me this

Hey y'all. Sorry about the whole comment thing. I've decided (like many of you also have) that disqus sucks (threading seemed like a good idea, until it indented so much that you couldn't even see the messages), so let's go back to the old Blogger comments. Besides, having comments stored in a separate site is still a little weird in the web-2.0-epic-fail kinda way.

BTW, in case you've been wondering where I've been for the past few days... well, you see, there's this little thing going on called the Olympics. Oh, and if you go to the NBC site, you can use this thing called Silverlight and watch tons of footage of sports that I never got to see before. But I know you lusers can't see any of that stuff, so instead you were busy commenting away on the last post. Sounds like fun. Sorry I couldn't join you.

But really, what I wanted to talk about today is bundling. As in "shipping software with your OS", not "what you want to do with Jessica Alba".

Lusers like to always bring up the whole IE + Windows thing as an example of Micro$oft being evil. And somehow the EU caught the same mental disease and continues to go after them over a stupid media player. Those same lusers will also talk about how the latest release of their favorite distro has so much software out of the box that you don't need to install anything else.

Do you guys like being ironic? And don't even try to get me started about Apple.

The thing that everyone likes to forget in the IE 3/4/5 days when all this shit happened was that IE's (especially 4 and 5) were better browsers than what Netscape had to offer. Yes, it was ever so slightly more inconvenient to use Netscape (the huge download size of Communicator didn't help), but there was also no reason to go through the trouble.

And what do you know? When something like Firefox comes along, which is actually better than IE in many ways, people start to use it. OMFG. Shocking.

Then there was that whole bit about M$ giving IE away for free. That was what really killed Netscape, but the freetards don't really talk about that part of it now do they? Oh hellz no, they're trying to give M$ some of its own medicine. Except there's a huge difference. Microsoft had a business plan when they made that fateful decision. Give away the browser, sell the OS. Freetards on the other hand? Uhh. Uhh. Uhh. Oh! I got it, let's whore out the search bar! Yay!

Some lusers like to think it was the Mozilla folks collective business genius that made Firefox successful. Sorry to break it to you, but it was Google that figured out how to make the dough. They just happen to also realize that giving a tiny bit of it to Firefox could benefit them. FF was, as they say, just in the right place at the right time. Let's just keep things in perspective, pleez?

185 flames:

Vadim Peretokin said...

Hey LH, can you be as great as this guy?

http://yokozar.livejournal.com/

You see, he actually knows how to fix it and does it. Can you do that?

Yonah said...

If you've read even ¼ of the posts on this site, you'd know that LinuxHater probably could fix it. However, like the rest of us, his TIME is more valuable to him. Perhaps he'd rather enjoying life and watch the Olympics being hosted in China for the first time.

Think about it. The douche in your link? He's fixing bugs with a program that runs Windows programs on Linux. Gee, I can run Windows programs too, without using Wine, without the computability problems, without the performance hit, and without hours of tracking down bugs. In the time he has spent hunting down why he can't double click an MSI installer, I've already installed the program, used it, and moved on to something else.

That's the problem with you Lusers. You think because you CAN do something you should. Some of you want so badly to do something with your empty lives you actually use an OS that's guaranteed to give you problems. Sorry, but that's a lifestyle choice the rest of us don't intend to swallow.

Steven said...

Actually, it was Netscape that forced the price of browsers down to zero. While they ostensibly charged for their "paid" version, there was no limitation on the Netscape trial versions, and most people never paid, either because -- hey, why bother? -- or because they felt those early versions just weren't worth the (rather stiff) $39.95 Netscape wanted.

IE was actually something you had to pay for at first, I think it was $9.99 as part of a Plus! pack, but you couldn't get it for free (no trial version).

But once it was clear that, for all practical purposes, Netscape wasn't charging, Microsoft really didn't have any choice. I mean, honestly, how much marketshare has Opera gotten (especially if you discount the now-free versions)?

Vadim Peretokin said...

Think about it.

You, a genius, are wasting your precious time not watching the Olympics but commenting on a blog for kewl haters. This is like a hippy group for geniuses to be hatin', right? Your time is so precious, that instead of actually accomplishing something, you're sitting whining like old men.

By the way, I don't use wine.

Yonah said...

Tell me, how much Vodka do you have to drink until 4 minutes spent typing on a blog equals the hour I spent watching USA vs Japan Women's Hockey match? My life is filled both with accomplishment and enjoyment. You are currently witnessing the enjoyment phase: Intellectually kicking you in the balls.

You don't use wine? Good for you. Next work on taking a piss standing up.

Vadim Peretokin said...

Really? I'm actually enjoying you piss yourself out of anger here.

Don't forget to include some "raah! I haaaate yew!" in the next comment!

Winston said...

Neither Windows, Linux, or OSX got shit on V.Smile. What bitches...

Anon E Moose said...

OEMs bundle software on systems (to save us a bit of money), and it's called "crapware" (okay - most of it IS, unless you like trial software and google toolbar).
Distros cram a CD or DVD worth of software on to a disk, often don't give you an option of what you do or do not want to install (and if they do you have to wade through several thousand cryptic package names and terse descriptions), and this is okay, because it's free/Free and therefore cannot be crapware.
Double standard. But whereas I wipe OEM systems and install a clean OS with Windows, it's a bit of a trial and error to clean the crap you don't want out of the average Linux install.

*shrug* whatever.

I used Mosaic for the first few years on the web. I bought a boxed copy of Netscape once, but switched to IE with version 3. Been using firefox since the pre 1.0 days when they seemed to be changing the name every few months. I liked it for the tabs. I only bother with IE now when I need to grab something from an MS site that uses ActiveX.

But now FF is going to die on our school networks because it can not be as well managed through AD as IE can (with respect to locking out the proxy settings). Makes me sad because web browsers are the one piece of software that I don't mind having duplicates of on a system. That redundancy has saved me a few headaches more than once.

Had a very brief look at Opera, but they seem to be even less interested in being a choice on corporate networks.

Anyway, I'm trolling here because I don't give a rats tiny tonker for sports in general. I'm just waiting to laugh at the inevitable doping scandals.

Jack said...

The thing you complain about with disqus has a lot to do with you putting your blog into a little narrow column in the middle of the screen. How about removing the width restriction and let the page fill to the width of the user's browser?

Anonymous said...

the current web war is about anything but freedom, and standards. corporations with a large investment in web technology, whether it be properties (google/firefox) or developement stacks (ms/ie iphone/safari), are devoting millions of dollars into their particular browser to make sure that their products work the best, and that they can dictate that platform.

so, ff people need to shut it about standards and web freedom, and evil m$ crap.

julian67 said...

A Luser writes:

1st: yes irony is a beautiful thing.

2nd: Silverlight & Olympics.

Situation here in UK is different. Not living in the land of the free means we have certain freedoms unavailable to our US cousins. Oooh! look, irony! The BBC offers Olympic coverage online via iPlayer, streaming Flash video. The streams are accessible on any platform that supports Flash 9, which includes Win32, Mac OS X and any Linux based OS. I think the BSDs are the ones to miss out, supporting only Flash 7. Videos can also be downloaded with iPlayer which functions as a P2P application distributing DRM'd Flash video. For iPhone users there are also non-DRM'd downloadable videos encoded to h264 and aac (iPhone apparently has its own mechanisms for controlling transfer and copying which satisfy the copyright owners). These are much better quality than the streams or the DRM'd videos. There are a couple of free software tools which emulate iPhones and enable anyone in UK to obtain those unprotected files. One, iplayer_dl, is written in Ruby. The other, get_iplayer, is a Perl script. Both work very well cross platform. iplayer_dl also has a gui for Windows users. either of these could also be used on BSD.

I believe most of the Olympic coverage is streaming only (this depends on the copyright owners, some don't allow even DRM'd video being made available for download) but anyway it's available for a week from broadcast to anyone using Windows, Mac or Linux.

I watched the highlights of the Women's cycling road race this morning. Strapping lasses with immense stamina, very grippy thighs and extremely tight clothes. And bicycles.

3: Bundling, the EU, etc.

It has to do with monopoly/monopolistic practices and awkward things like laws enforcing some semblance of a free market, not bundling per se.

The media player and browser are clearly less important than the APIs, but I guess the media focus on the bits they and their viewers understand most easily. It's broadly analagous the MS anti-trust case prosecuted by the US DoJ. I'll stop there because certain of your readers and contributors will struggle and fail when trying to conceptualise these strange phenomena and an insightful and honest exchange of views doesn't look a likely outcome.

Richard said...

wasted words for this post... nothing to see today, moving along...

Anonymous said...

Olympics eh?
http://tinyurl.com/55mtpg

hmmm...

Anonymous said...

Linux distros bundle all the software to convince the desktop market that they doesn't suck... lol I mean there are so many applications for linux and still what 1% desktop market share? lol.. i bet there are more than 1% non-gamers who just want to do simple shit with their computers.. , even they dont want linux.

Die Datagear said...

Hey, people keep complaining about MS stuff, but lately they have been doing things that work the way they are meant to.

That's all that matters: Now.
Who cares if IE6 could not read PNGs correctly? IE7 manages quite well.

And sooner or later they will end up doing a browser that works exactly as it is suposed to do.

A physicsist who thinks outside the box said...

Your blog is very useful. Can I add your blog in my blog feed please? Many thanks!!!

http://softwares-addiction.blogspot.com/

Anonymous said...

I think the key difference between distros bundling software and MS bundling software is two fold. First, distros don't just bundle their own software. FF, OO.o, GIMP, and Pidgin are cross-platform and bundled in multiple distros. I don't particularly care for KDE's style of bundling all their own programs to do those things either, like Konqueror and Kopete. By bundling this type of software, it can be easily exchanged should another competing product fit better. Thus, Gnome's Bit Torrent Client can be exchanged for Transmission in distros.

The other difference is that the distro software is free, so it's not going to affect anything by bundling it. If MS started bundling Office Ultimate, Photoshop, and all this other stuff, they'd be charging $1000+ for the OS.

Anonymous said...

Place these groups in order of who you think is the most annoying to argue with:

1. Creationists

2. Militant liberals/socialists

3. Linux Users

4. 12 year old girls who think they know everything

Anonymous said...

Am just going to repost this Slashdot comment. Because on this one LH, you're provably, completely wrong.

Curb your Windows Enthusiasm. It doesn't matter how "defacto" a practice is when a company holds monopoly control over what should be an open market. For a number of reasons, all significant PC makers HAVE to license Windows from Microsoft in order to sell PCs. There are major barriers to Linux on the desktop for consumers (despite it's being free), and developing a business model like Apple requires the ability to coast along under constant attack from Microsoft for a decade or so while developing your own OS. IBM, the Amiga, NeXT, and Be couldn't, and it appears clear nobody else ever could in the future.

The PC is not an open market, but only because of artificial barriers created by Microsoft to prevent competition. Unlike utility monopolies, it does not serve the public. We don't benefit from having to pay the Microsoft tax for every PC sold, and Microsoft has proven that without competition, it refuses to innovate (which is why development of IE suddenly stopped in 2001 and didn't resume until the threat posted by Firefox and Safari motivated it to poop out IE 7 five years later.)

The PC market was also not a product of choice. People didn't decide to use Windows over other alternatives; Microsoft simple ensured there were no other alternatives. While Windows Enthusiasts like to complain that Apple has "monopolized" music with iTunes and the iPod, the situation isn't even similar: no other manufacturers have to license Apple's tech (or even can) in order to sell their products. In reality, Microsoft monopolized music, because its pretty much impossible to get any kind of DRM music or player without it being involved. Apple just beat Microsoft in the marketplace by offering a better product before Microsoft could lock it all up. Without iTunes, we'd have the "choice" of various Windows Media stores and various Windows Media players, just as PC buyers only have the "choice" of buying Windows PCs from various makers.

In a similarly monopolized business, say the old phone market, or in the case of newspaper/broadcasting markets, there are laws that prevent companies with a certain position from acquiring other companies to extend their control over the market or leverage their control over one market to obliterate another. The fact that other smaller companies are not similarly restricted is not a defense against antitrust laws, and it makes no sense to bring up as if it were.

Saying that Apple bundles Safari or that Nokia bundles its own browser on its phones or that Nintendo offers Opera for the Wii is completely immaterial to the fact that Microsoft used its PC monopoly position to destroy Netscape, Sun, and every other rival in the desktop/web/API space to entrench Windows and tie all web development to its own proprietary browser. It just makes you look really stupid to repeat such absurd comments. What has Microsoft done for you lately?

Vadim Peretokin said...

Any fanboys really go there. Be it Mac, Windows, or a Linux l33tist.

Anonymous said...

As far as I know, the problem wasn't that Microsoft was bundling software with Windows, but that it was abusing a position of monopoly it holds to kill competitors.

Apple doesn't have such a monopoly to kill off competitors like that, and no linux distribution does either. So, I think it misses the point to criticize linux distributions for bundling application software.

Anon E Moose said...

Just the sort of bullshit one expects from slashdot. MS doesn't own the PC market. You can buy a non-OEM PC devoid of OS from any local computer shop that builds them on site. I won't even bother to mention the Linux OEMs, who seem to be able to sell systems without being bullied into dealing Windows.

So I hate to be a wet blanket, but the PC market *is* an "open market". If the big "significant" OEMs get into bed with Microsoft it's only to further their own ambitions in a cut throat market where the bottom line is getting consumers to buy their hardware. What do consumers want? Why they want what they want for as little $ as possible, firstly, and secondly they want it to be reliable and to "just work". Both of those factors make any enticements from MS a virtual no brain choice, especially if it means that your competitors aren't going to undercut you because they've got some deal with Redmond and you don't.
Are they doing this deliberately to stifle Linux? Give me a break! corporate partnerships are about money.


Apple is a monopoly in the true spirit of the term, having locked their software to their hardware, and being the sole provider of both.

The PC platform is "open" You can install any gods-damned x86 compatible OS on it that you bloody well want, and still have the freedom to spout whiny anti-business rubbish disguised as conspiracy theories.
Nor are your beholden to pay an "MS" tax.

Hell, how many of you geeks out there buy OEM PCs rather than building your own?
Ya never *had* to buy Windows with those parts.

It's a moot point bitching about the tune if you've never paid the piper.

[twisti] said...

I have bad news for you - Jessica Alba has genital herpes. No joke.

julian67 said...

I've bought 2 laptops without an OS (well, one had freedos) but this was in SE Asia where it's the norm because almost everybody uses unlicensed MS. In the UK it's possible but if you want a particular brand or model the choice is narrowed considerably. Some distributors list OS free models but won't actually distribute or sell them. Some (most) only sell their products with a bundled MS OS. It is a defacto monopoly when almost all hardware distributors or retailers either can't or won't supply hardware without specific software. I'm sure the main reasons are financial, i.e. that the margins are much better with a small profit on the bundled OS and a better one of the bundled crapware, but if MS hasn't used its enormously powerful position to apply compelling pressure on companies who show signs of deviating from the one true holy way then then they are strangely to different to every other successful and competitive business that ever existed.

Dell is the obvious exception now. Michael Dell is a well known Freetard Luser who lives in his Mom's basement and has no clue about the real world of vendor ecosystems and also has the financial clout to resist external pressure. And IBM, now Lenovo, Thinkpads have been available with Suse for a while. Dell seems to be getting aggressive in its pricing in USA according to http://www.linuxloop.com/news/2008/08/11/select-dell-notebooks-now-cheaper-with-ubuntu-retail-vista-than-vista-pre-installed/ which claims you might save $350 on equivalent models by choosing Ubuntu instead of MS. I haven't checked it but looking at the UK Dell site you can certainly save the equivalent of around $150 on identical models.

Desktops I build for myself so that's easy but for laptops there's some benefit in a brand and a warranty for the hardware if nothing else.

Matt said...

Oh god, how could you Linux Hater!!!!

You made me remember the days when we ran Netscape's email server. Curses!

No offense, I love Firefox but Netscape Communicator and the rest of their products were crap. Their implementation of LDAP was crap. Their configuration tools were crap.

I'm still trying to decide if you and I should elope to Cali so we can get married.

I've been screwing with MythTV for four years now. Some days I want to whisper sweet nothings to it and some days I want to take big f'ing hammer to it. I've tried every "install and go" distribution of it, and finally, finally got it working at about 80% with Slackware.

That's right Ubuntu fan boys, mother truckin' Slackware. Most of the distributions don't allow you to setup LVM during setup unless you know...wait for it...the secret command to get to a SHELL before the installation starts.

That and all the weird "This system supports protocol 27 and we're on protocol 43" messages you get when trying to use Windows clients, or LINUX clients are a pain.

I've been using "the LINUX" since Slackware 0.94 and fondly (ha, not really) remember creating the 36 floppy disks needed to install it. The countless hours spent installing 36 floppies. The countless hours spent redoing all of that after I chose a driver in the kernel that HAD NO FREAKING DOCUMENTATION and killed my system.

Its 2008 and I still look at the kernel documentation and see some kernel choices with "Don't install this unless you know what you are doing".

Um, OK?

MythTV is a good example of how not to write documentation along with the kernel, most distributions (just do what we tell you, you don't need to LEARN anything - sound familiar - looking at you Microsoft). I'll keep using it and when frustrated I'll come to you for a laugh and the promise that, "he ever comes to my town he isn't paying for a damn thing."

Keep on keeping on Linux Hater. "FAIR IS FAIR"

Sorry, watched The Legend of Billy Jean the other night. That chick is hot.

.net jerkface said...


What has Microsoft done for you lately?


Made an OS that is better than any Linux distro and can be installed on any computer?

Sometimes people actually forget that Microsoft meets market needs that Linux distros and OS/X cannot.

By the way quoting someone else's quote from another forum is the epitome of lame. If you think LH is wrong then tell him why with your own response.

As for Microsoft holding back Linux...

Linux has had over a billion pumped into it and still doesn't have the marketshare of Windows 2000, an OS that is almost 10 years old and is no longer produced.

OS/X has made impressive gains in marketshare recently and you have to buy a computer to get the OS. Linux is free and can be downloaded at anytime.

It is not the fault of Microsoft that Linux sucks as a desktop OS. It is almost 2010, the excuses have really gotten old.

Whatever said...

I love the fact how many open source morons think Mozilla is some sort of charity, while in fact they get millions over millions of dirty american dollars from Google. Not being a FOSS commie, I don't think that there's anything wrong with making money, but I don't really like how Mozilla lies about not profiting from their software.

A little quote from their website: "We’re motivated by our mission of promoting openness, innovation and opportunity on the web rather than business concerns like profits or the price of our stock (guess what: we don’t even have stock).

And as a non-profit, public benefit organization, we define success in terms of building communities and enriching people’s lives. We believe in the power and potential of the Internet and want to see it thrive for everyone, everywhere."

This sounds like your usual marketing bullshit, but the difference is, normal software companies don't avoid paying taxes by pretending that they are not a company...

Anonymous said...

@anonymous: There are major barriers to Linux on the desktop for consumers (despite it's being free), ...

Yeah, the "major barriers" include the notable problem that consumers DON'T FUCKING WANT LINUX ON THEIR DESKTOP!

...and developing a business model like Apple requires the ability to coast along under constant COMPETITION from Microsoft for a decade or so while developing your own OS.

Fixed it for you.

The PC is not an open market, but only because of artificial barriers created by Microsoft to prevent competition.

Any anti-competitive pressures brought to bear from Microsoft have been gone for nearly a decade. So, what's your excuse NOW?

It does not serve the public.

Then, why don't you write a letter to each and every consumer, explaining why they are wrong to buy PCs with Windows pre-loaded on them...

We don't benefit from having to pay the Microsoft tax for every PC sold

Of course YOU don't benefit. But, really, who the fuck cares?!? I certainly don't.

it refuses to innovate (which is why development of IE suddenly stopped in 2001 and didn't resume until the threat posted by Firefox and Safari motivated it to poop out IE 7 five years later.)

That's the nature of competition, douchebag. Products shadow competing products. Still waiting for your flying car?

The PC market was also not a product of choice. People didn't decide to use Windows over other alternatives; Microsoft simple ensured there were no other alternatives.

People can't buy Macs? WTF?!? Apple owns, like, 50% of the laptop market. WTF have you been?!?

In reality, Microsoft monopolized music, because its pretty much impossible to get any kind of DRM music or player without it being involved. Apple just beat Microsoft in the marketplace by offering a better product before Microsoft could lock it all up. Without iTunes, we'd have the "choice" of various Windows Media stores and various Windows Media players, just as PC buyers only have the "choice" of buying Windows PCs from various makers.

Dude, you're a mess. Your brain (assuming you have one) is full of mush. Listen to yourself. Microsoft "monopolized music", and yet, somehow, Apple "beat Microsoft to the market with a better product"? So, which is it? Does Microsoft monopolize music? Or were you fucking lying/wrong?


In a similarly monopolized business, say the old phone market, or in the case of newspaper/broadcasting markets, there are laws that prevent companies with a certain position from acquiring other companies to extend their control over the market or leverage their control over one market to obliterate another.


Anti-trust laws are meant to correct anti-competitive behavior, not pick winners and losers. Microsoft is forbidden from having exclusive contracts in the market for PC operating systems. Game over. Problem solved. Nearly a decade ago. Where the fuck have you been, dimwit?

julian67 said...

That makes Mozilla a step ahead of the competition ;-) No, I don't care really, it's just a cheap joke.

All kinds of non-profits have big incomes, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation for one.

Non-profit status doesn't equate to no income or no commercial activity, so it's best not to assess non-profits on that basis.

If we read vision statements and mission statements and actually take them seriously the world would be a better place....oh wait, no....we'd all be mindless victims of marketing goons. That's better.

Anonymous said...

Dude, you're a mess. Your brain (assuming you have one) is full of mush. Listen to yourself. Microsoft "monopolized music", and yet, somehow, Apple "beat Microsoft to the market with a better product"? So, which is it? Does Microsoft monopolize music? Or were you fucking lying/wrong?

Ad hominem followed by false dichotomy. Makes you a fucking cunt.

Any anti-competitive pressures brought to bear from Microsoft have been gone for nearly a decade. So, what's your excuse NOW?

Wrong: DRM, WMV, bundled Media Player, holding back the Web as a platform for applications, fucking with the SMB protocol in Vista, OOXML are just the anti-competitive pressures I can think of, off the top of my head. There are more. Not excuses, but real bullshit MS is getting away with because of the judicial slap on the wrist they got on appeal.

Anti-trust laws are meant to correct anti-competitive behavior, not pick winners and losers. Microsoft is forbidden from having exclusive contracts in the market for PC operating systems. Game over. Problem solved.

No, as the action by the EU has proved, they did not go far enough the first time. We would have all been better off had Microsoft been split up, returning real competition to the market.

Linux Hater has gone from insightful criticisms of a shit OS, to unprofessional trolling. This latest post is just utter shit.

Linux Hater: you have run out of things to say.

Whatever said...

Income and profit are not the same thing. Non-profit organisations as you have probably guessed already, are not allowed to profit from whatever they are doing. This means, they are legally bound by all that crap written in their mission statements because that's the only way they can spend their income, while a company can use it for whatever the shareholders come up with.

Now, how the hell does Mozilla benefit the public ? By writing a buggy, bloated web browser using unpaid nerd labor ? Man, that's better than trying to cure cancer...

Anonymous said...

And here you come when you try to battle in a domain you don't know much about, yes Im talking about 'multimedia', you just don't know what you are talking about, this is obvious, and for the first time I read your blog, which is entertaining for sure, here I think you are wrong, and get it wrong.

Silverlight is locking you up to Microsoft codecs, that's a fact. It's limiting you to a specific subset of less efficient codecs, that's a fact too. The best existing codec nowdays is H.264. Google as much you want to find benchmarks.

Microsoft decided to restrict themselves from getting Linux users feedback (pretending to be cross-platform, knowing that linux is used, not much, this is true, still this is very lying IMHO, especially when Adobe supports it), Adobe did not, and I would be interested in knowing what kind of feedback they get. At least discussion is ongoing on several Adobe's engineers blogs, so this method must not be so bad and useless like you pretend it to be.

while Flash and Adobe are opening themselves and make multimedia easier for _everyone_, by using open and standardized for everyone, Microsoft is doing the exact opposite.

They hurt consumers restraining them to use using only _their_ technology.
VC-1 is open, thanks to SMPTE and the forcing they did, regarding HD-DVD/Blurays, but this is the _only_ standardized codec from Microsoft, and is less efficient than H.264 despite what they try to fake, and guess what you get no AAC obviously, guess in which format most of your ipod songs are encoded ?

Using closed, locked, proprietary solution in multimedia nowdays is only a stupid mistake, unless you own the hardware, like Apple does, but still Apple didn't restrain their devices to play unprotected aac files, or mp3, however they lock their devices and don't tell me this is good for _any_ consumer.

This is not about linux and/or its users, multimedia is about user in general whatever OS he uses.

.net jerkface said...


...holding back the Web as a platform for applications


How has Microsoft held back the web as a platform for applications? This has to be the silliest of all your comments.

Remember how Java was supposed to cause a web app revolution? Right after the Java cross-platform revolution? Is it the fault of Microsoft that Java was overhyped and underdeveloped?

What is stopping any company from creating a web application platform that is installed as a plugin?


Silverlight is locking you up to Microsoft codecs, that's a fact.


So it is ok for Adobe to have a monopoly on flash, but when Microsoft challenges it they are being anti-competitive?

Anonymous said...

Linux users cannot natively watch Olympics from the NBC website because Moonlight doesn't yet encompass Silverlight 2.0 functionality.

Heh... NBC is using a beta version of Silverlight anyway.

However, its not like the non-native way is any worse...

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6199/olympicsfm1.png

Anonymous said...

@anon e mooose

Ask your IT people to check out www.frontmotion.com for Firefox that is manageable through AD.

.net jerkface said...

On the issue of codecs:

I think a lot of people don't realize that MP3/MPEG are not free formats, you have to pay a royalty fee if you sell a product that uses them.

This is probably why Microsoft created their own codecs, as a way of offsetting the millions they had been paying in royalty fees. Sure Microsoft charges for their use but at a lower rate.

Oh and congrats to the FSF for coming up with the worst name possible for their royalty free format: ogg. Sounds like a troll from a D&D game. Way to sink something that would be actually useful to a lot of companies.

julian67 said...

Ogg Vorbis is owned by Xiph.org. It isn't a creation of the FSF.

You might be surprised at how many devices use Ogg. If a manufacturer makes a device, maybe a toy, that records or makes a sound then there's a good chance are it uses Ogg, precisely to avoid per unit payments for mp3. You can pick up almost any no name Chinese personal audio player and the logos and box and leaflet tell you it supports mp3 and WMA (usually nnon DRM) and nothing mentions Ogg but almost all of them play Ogg (I used to import a lot).

Anonymous said...

sooo back to original post... bundling... like KDE bundles konqueror right?

.net jerkface said...

Well the FSF didn't create the actual format but they have adopted it as a campaign.
http://www.fsf.org/resources/formats/playogg

But anyways I am aware that it is in use, especially in video games. It just hasn't caught on like the other formats in mainstream use, which I think has a great deal to do with the name. It sounds like a caveman.

ChrisTek said...

Use the new comment system that Blogger has come out with (in draft mode). It'll offer the inline comments that bloggers love so much.

This is more of a hassle, but at least it doesn't grind my system at 50% proc time for 5 minutes per comment.

Anonymous said...

How has Microsoft held back the web as a platform for applications?

IE6 not being updated for ~5 years. Javascript will not be updated for the foreseeable future, SVG will not be implemented and going forward I would be willing to bet key parts of HTML 5 will be ignored too (notably the video tag).

The latter in the name of pushing people to -- the should be irrelevant -- Silverlight. Prior to that Microsoft were/are scared of the Windows API losing its relevance Joel on Software says it better than I could:

Which means, suddenly, Microsoft's API doesn't matter so much. Web applications don't require Windows.

It's not that Microsoft didn't notice this was happening. Of course they did, and when the implications became clear, they slammed on the brakes. Promising new technologies like HTAs and DHTML were stopped in their tracks. The Internet Explorer team seems to have disappeared; they have been completely missing in action for several years. There's no way Microsoft is going to allow DHTML to get any better than it already is: it's just too dangerous to their core business, the rich client.


Just to clear up any ambiguity: am talking about Web based applications, i.e. using Web pages as the front end to software running on a server.

So it is ok for Adobe to have a monopoly on flash,

Flash in itself isn't a market. Also it's not illegal to have a monopoly (although frankly: they don't), it's abusing the monopoly that's illegal.

.net jerkface said...


IE6 not being updated for ~5 years. Javascript will not be updated for the foreseeable future, SVG will not be implemented and going forward I would be willing to bet key parts of HTML 5 will be ignored too (notably the video tag).


IE6 was only updated after Firefox came out, so maybe Mozilla should be blamed for taking so long to create it? Maybe opera should be blamed for charging for so long. Perhaps Apple should be blamed for not taking the initiative when it comes to web apps.
The point is that Microsoft cannot be blamed for having a lack of competition, especially since the potential for an app platform through a browser plugin has been there even before IE6.


Flash in itself isn't a market. Also it's not illegal to have a monopoly (although frankly: they don't), it's abusing the monopoly that's illegal.


Yes I know that having a monopoly is in itself only illegal if you abuse it. Sadly most Linux users don't seem to know this.

Anyways Adobe has a monopoly on flash in that they have complete control over it. Do I think it is a problem? No, but if Microsoft was in the same place everyone would complain about how Microsoft has yet another monopoly. Thankfully MS is going to provide some competition; especially since I think that flash is poorly coded. I have seen two flash animations max out my dual-core cpu.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous: Ad hominem followed by false dichotomy.

Clearly, you don't understand what a false dichotomy is. The original post claimed that Microsoft "monopolized music, because its pretty much impossible to get any kind of DRM music or player without it being involved." which is out-and-out bullshit. Microsoft doesn't control the dominant DRM'd format. It belongs to Apple: AAC (with FairPlay DRM).

Wrong: DRM, WMV, bundled Media Player

A. Using DRM is the right of content providers. If you don't like it, fuck you. Create your own content, or STFU.

B. Even if that weren't the case,
DRM isn't a hindrance. It's merely a inconvenience. No DRM feature invented to date hasn't been cracked. So, again, STFU.

C. All desktop operating systems have a bundled media player. That's good for consumers. So, STFU.

holding back the Web as a platform for applications

That's an odd perspective, given the fact that Google, Yahoo, Amazon, and other companies based on open source technologies have grown to be the most influential Web application providers on the planet. Not Microsoft.

fucking with the SMB protocol in Vista

Refer to the Wiki for SMB.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista_networking_technologies#Server_Message_Block_2.0

"A significant improvement over SMB support in prior versions of Windows is the ability to compound multiple actions into a single request, which significantly reduces the number of round-trips the client needs to make to the server, improving performance as a result."

What you ignorantly call "fucking with the SMB protocol" has other names among reasonable people: PROGRESS and IMPROVEMENT.

OOXML are just the anti-competitive pressures I can think of

MS Office doesn't hold a monopoly on any market. Curious how you call COMPETITION "anti-competitive pressures". Perhaps you should pull your head out of your ass.


There are more. Not excuses, but real bullshit MS is getting away with because of the judicial slap on the wrist they got on appeal.

None of the issues you've described have hindered competition in any way. Apple owns DRM for the primary audio format, Flash is the dominant media player on the Web (thanks to YouTube), FireFox3 is widely acknowledged as a better browser than IE7, Microsoft licensed SMB2 protocols to Samba under terms of the EU anti-trust deal, Microsoft agreed to support ODF in MS Office, etc. In other words, you are a little man with weird ideas. Perhaps, ifh you spent more time trying to co-exist rather than tear everything else down, you might get a clue.

Anonymous said...

VC-1 is definitely superior to h.264, despite what freetards might have you believe. This is the case both in HD video and in low res web-friendly bitrates. Not only that, VC-1 is an international video standard; you and anyone else are free to develop your own codecs for it based on the published specification. Just because Microsoft has the best implementation of that specification (largely because they initially developed it) doesn't mean it's a bad codec; nor is it bad because they choose to keep their implementation close to their chest.

Silverlight, too, is a really good technology, and using the VC-1 codec is just one of the reasons (better video quality). It's really easy to design UI for it as it's all kept in XAML and out of code, which means designers and programmers can keep their stuff separate. Behind the XAML there is then any .NET language you happen to want to use, which makes Silverlight the next evolution of the java applet model; it allows for really rich web applications in a proper, fully featured language.

And yes, Silverlight (and 2 beta 2) doesn't work on Linux; why should Microsoft waste their time catering to sub-1% of the desktop market when content providers don't even care about them? They're being nice enough allowing Miguel de Icaza to use their video codecs to ensure full compatibility in Moonlight. But again we see the wonders of open source software in Moonlight; it's taking them forever to develop the damn plugin and they will eternally be behind the curve when it comes to Silverlight, as Microsoft keep developing this wonderful technology.

BTW, DRM is actually really useful for content providers and consumers alike (when designed properly; poorly implemented DRM is still bad) as it allows content providers to make money off their content (IE, it allows them to keep it in the presence of ads) and this allows them to keep producing content that consumers can enjoy.

julian67 said...

Writing

What you ignorantly call "fucking with the SMB protocol" has other names among reasonable people: PROGRESS and IMPROVEMENT.

and

None of the issues you've described have hindered competition in any way.

followed by

Microsoft licensed SMB2 protocols to Samba under terms of the EU anti-trust deal

is a stroke of genius, an exhibition of logical thinking combined with dazzling debating skills of which any chimpanzee would be rightly proud.

GreyGeek said...

Stop making bullshit assessments and ad hominem attacks, you fucking cunts.

Also LinuxHater, have you beaten up your mother today before writing this post?

julian67 said...

Priceless :-)

Anonymous said...

And yes, Silverlight (and 2 beta 2) doesn't work on Linux; why should Microsoft waste their time catering to sub-1% of the desktop market when content providers don't even care about them? They're being nice enough allowing Miguel de Icaza to use their video codecs to ensure full compatibility in Moonlight. But again we see the wonders of open source software in Moonlight; it's taking them forever to develop the damn plugin and they will eternally be behind the curve when it comes to Silverlight, as Microsoft keep developing this wonderful technology.

Actually... its not.

Moonlight has already implemented Silverlight 1.1 functionality. Silverlight 2.0 different support is under development.

Don't give me the BS how Flash supports H.264 MPEG 4 AVC; whereas Silverlight supports VC-1. The difference in the formats aren't all that significant.

The video quality on NBC's Olympics site are definitely no better than a video on YouTube at normal quality--its blurry as shit, even their larger player is somewhat blurry.

Anyway, we'll see how Silverblight holds up against Flash when Adobe unleashes tools to incorporate other languages (besides ActionScript) into the Flash runtime.

http://www.thestandard.com/news/2008/02/26/adobe-extending-flash-platform

Francisco Costa said...

Thanks to Ms the world has seen the biggest BSOD (Blue screen of death).
In the Olympics there it was a huge bsod.
I've seen BSOD in ATM machines, airports departure and arrivals boards, but this one is huge...
Take a look

Anonymous said...

Micro$oft PWNT

Anonymous said...

About the Microsoft holding web development part: Rich Text editing (like TinyMCE: http://tinymce.moxiecode.com/example_full.php) was a feature, that was introduced in IE 5 first.

The other browsers played catchup here. The same with Ajax (the xmlhttp object was first in IE)


About Netscape in general: Netscape was on the way down, long before Microsoft bundled IE with Win98. Simply because it was better. Here are some ancient articles:

------


http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-203884.html

Short URL:

http://tinyurl.com/5rghdo

Published: October 3, 1997 5:00 PM PDT

"Microsoft (MSFT) said today that more than 1 million copies of its
Internet Explorer 4.0 Web browser have been downloaded since it was
released Tuesday night.

The company said that number set a record demand for any Microsoft
product in this amount of time. The figure does not include downloads
from 20 partner sites that also offer IE 4.0, the company added.

The more than 1 million downloads amounted to at least six copies per
second.

Traffic to Microsoft's Web site had been surging as the
much-anticipated release date neared. On September 30 alone, the
company recorded 1.5 million visits to the site. Microsoft also
reiterated that 200,000 people had ordered IE 4.0 on CD-ROM.

Although Microsoft said it has increased the capacity of its Web
servers, users have complained about congestion and busy signals at
the Web site. The company boosted its site's download capacity to 6.1
terabytes, which would allow about 450,000 browser downloads a day, a
spokeswoman said. However, throughout this week, the site was jammed
with traffic from users looking for the software, many unable to get
in.

Internet Explorer 4.0, released Tuesday after five months of beta
testing, is Microsoft's attempt to make the browser wars irrelevant.
By building IE 4.0 into Windows, Microsoft hopes to make the browser
just another utility that comes with the operating system. That
integration won't truly happen until Microsoft ships Windows 98 next
year, but the release of IE 4.0 for Windows 95 is a major step in
that direction.

Netscape Communications dominates the browser market, but Microsoft
thinks IE 4.0 will give it more than a 50 percent market share.

A survey of 279 corporate users released earlier this week by Zona
Research shows Netscape's Navigator remains the leading browser with
a 62 percent share, compared with a 36 percent share for Microsoft's
IE. Explorer's share has risen to 36 percent from 3 percent in the
past 18 months, the survey shows.

"

http://web.archive.org/web/20010622043005/http://content.techweb.com/
wire/news/1997/10/1003downloads.html

Short URL:

http://tinyurl.com/5r5jb3

"IE 4: One Million Downloads On Day 1

(10/03/97; 5:00 p.m. EDT)

REDMOND, Wash. -- Microsofts Internet Explorer 4.0 is off to a huge
start. In the first 24 hours of availability, the company reports
more than one million copies have been downloaded from its home page,
an average of one download every 6 seconds.
The numbers are all the more remarkable given IE 4.0s size. The
browser-only version is 13 megabytes (MB), the standard version,
which offers the desktop integration, is 16 MB, and the full version
is 25 MB. With a modem speed of 28.8 kilobytes per second, the
standard for home users, the Web-only download can take 1.5 hours,
and the full version can take more than 3 hours. Partly for that
reason, perhaps, more than 200,000 people have preordered the CD for
$4.95. Microsoft began shipping the CDs this week.

The one-million-downloads figure covers only copies downloaded from
Microsoft.com. It does not include downloads from the more than 20
mirror sites or the preordered CDs. To prepare for the flood,
Microsoft had to arrange for several terabytes of download bandwidth,
according to a Microsoft official at the San Francisco launch on
Tuesday night.

More than 10 terabytes of data have been sent out from the Microsoft
domain, according to Kevin Unangst, product manager for Internet
Explorer at Microsoft. The downloads are a mixture of browser-only,
standard, and full-install, according to Unangst. Microsoft has not
recorded whether the downloads are by corporate users or home users
and won't know until more analysis of its logs, probably some time
next week.

Microsoft capped off its launch on Tuesday with a little prank. A
10-by-12 foot rendering of the "e" logo in Internet Explorer --
prominently placed on the floor of the warehouse during the launch --
was left at the front door of arch-nemesis Netscape Communications,
in Mountain View, Calif. A group of people were seen dropping off the
prop around 1:30 in the morning, according to a Netscape
spokesperson. A card on the giant "e" read, "From the IE team."

Still, Netscape had the last laugh. Company employees put their
12-foot mascot Mozilla, a green Godzilla-like foam creature on top of
the prop with a card that read "Netscape 72, Microsoft 18" -- a
reference to recent market share numbers. But Netscape's
counter-pranksters must not have seen the recent numbers from Zona
Research, in Redwood City, Calif., which said Navigator has 62
percent of the market to IEs 36 percent share. "


-----

One million downloads in 1997 was a fucking great achievment. Much greater than the 8 million firefox 3 downloads eleven years later, if you count in the fact, how many internet users are now online, compared to then. And how cheap broadband is now.

And why was IE4 so much downloaded? Because of monopoly, right? Because MS forced them to download it? Or was it, because IE sucked ass, and Netscape was so much better, right?


Help me get it right, Slashdot cultists.

Winston said...

Damn dude, ever hear of a link? Good lord...

I love how you fuckers find excuses for shit. It cracks me up. I don't have anywhere near the technical knowledge of 99 percent of y'all, yet I have managed to figure out that praising one group for bundling software while using the practice to vilify another is complete hypocritical bullshit, no matter how you try to spin it.

Anonymous said...

I don't have anywhere near the technical knowledge of 99 percent of y'all, yet I have managed to figure out that praising one group for bundling software while using the practice to vilify another is complete hypocritical bullshit, no matter how you try to spin it.

No, you lack the critical thinking ability to understand that two people (companies or organisations) can do the same thing, but with different intentions.

Microsoft leverage their OS monopoly, by bundling apps, in order to crush their competition. Apple and Linux distros bundle apps to differentiate their products from the competition, to add value. If you are unable to see the difference then you are emotionally retarded and should seek mental help.

All us Web developers have been suffering the consequences of this for years, so don't try to patronise us by saying otherwise. Thousands of hours have been wasted due to Microsoft's jamming on the brakes on IE development. Oh, of course it's everybody elses fault that a competitor took so long to break through: bullshit. If Microsoft didn't have an OS monopoly, their browser market share would be ~0% now.

Fucking Microsoft apologists. This blog post is fucking shit, Linux Hater has run out of things to say.

Psyn said...

@anon 12:59 PM

Dude, seriously. Find professional help.

All you've done is restate what Linux Hater has been saying, and you validated it. Exactly what value is added by including browsers with Linux distros that are years behind the others? Konqueror, Ephiphany? Are you serious. I'd experience more efficent webpage rendering using Netscape Navigator 3.0.

Yours and the rest of the FOSS "community's" hypocrisy is really tiresome. Success != monopoly. Take a goddamn economics course one day. Oh wait! That would require you to come out of mommy and daddy's basement and spend some of your allowance!

Nevermind. The world doesn't need you anyway.

whitetigersx said...

"All us Web developers have been suffering the consequences of this for years, so don't try to patronise us by saying otherwise."

What about all the non-standard code that "all you web developers" keep writing. If IE, or FF didn't take that into account then millions of websites would break, that just wouldn't work.

And don't start in with :if they had built it to standards in the first place..." schtick. That's just so much BS.

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/03/17.html

It gives a good description of why standards are a pain the butt to maintain - especially if there were large amounts of items created before the creation of the standards, or what happens when the standards are updates.

Actually, IE7 works very well, my personal experience with it and firefox is about comparable.

And if you're going to complain that someone bundles their OS with utilities and enhancements, don't turn around and do it yourself - it just makes you hypocritical, even if the other person has a monopoly. You can't say watch me do what you're not allowed to do, it's BS and people begin to lose respect for you.

As for the OS monopoly, Apple is in a slightly different market, as is the linux primordial ooze distros. Yo keep hoping that something livable and viable with rise from the pits, but half-formed mutants are the normal result.

julian67 said...

Dude, seriously. Find professional help.

All you've done is restate what Linux Hater has been saying, and you validated it. Exactly what value is added by including browsers with Linux distros that are years behind the others? Konqueror, Ephiphany? Are you serious. I'd experience more efficent webpage rendering using Netscape Navigator 3.0.


Epiphany uses the gecko engine. It renders pages exactly as Firefox.

It's not an application that pretends to be anything other than a web browser, ie. it doesn't handle your email or do anything with rss feeds other than pass them to a feed reader and so on. But for people who want a web browser simply for web browsing, with adblocking, gestures, greasemonkey and custom actions it's actually extremely good. It's handling of bookmarks and search including smart bookmarks is still better than Firefox 3, Konqueror and IE7 (I haven't used Opera for a long time, I don't know how well it does these tasks). It seems most people prefer a more extensible application in which case Firefox, Konqueror or even Opera would suit.

I've only used recent versions of Konqueror quite briefly (for a few days) but had no problem with the rendering though I'm sure such problems exist.

Anonymous said...

.net jerkface said...
Sometimes people actually forget that Microsoft meets market needs that Linux distros and OS/X cannot.

Hey, retard. There's no such thing as OS/X. What's up with the stupid slash? It's OS X, not OS/X.

julian67 said...

Hey, retard. There's no such thing as OS/X. What's up with the stupid slash? It's OS X, not OS/X.

It's been neck and neck all day but by a hair's breadth you win the award for lamest comment today (factors considered: irrelevance, ignorance, pointlessness, utter tedium, and use of the word retard).

Anonymous said...

What about all the non-standard code that "all you web developers" keep writing.

A decent Web developer does not write non-standard code.

And don't start in with :if they had built it to standards in the first place..." schtick. That's just so much BS.

You say this because you know we'll bring it up. The reason we'll bring it up is because it isn't bullshit.

It gives a good description of why standards are a pain the butt to maintain - especially if there were large amounts of items created before the creation of the standards, or what happens when the standards are updates.

Only if you've been ignoring them for years. I note that other browsers manage to implement standards and get backwars compatibility working. Joel seems to only be seeing the story from Microsoft's perspective.

Actually, IE7 works very well, my personal experience with it and firefox is about comparable.

The two are not comparable. IE7 is a little better but a non-trivial design still requires an annoying amount of time spent hacking CSS. Firefox, Opera, Webkit etc. all work as near to perfectly as most designers need.

And if you're going to complain that someone bundles their OS with utilities and enhancements, don't turn around and do it yourself - it just makes you hypocritical, even if the other person has a monopoly.

You just repeated what's already been said without taking into account the other arguments introduced. The rules are different for monopolies, and intention is important.

Idiots like you seem to think corporations should be free to walk all over people and take giant shits on the free market. Well you're wrong, freedom has to be enforced, and when a company attempts to abuse their monopoly in one market to gain one in another they must be stopped.

As for the OS monopoly, Apple is in a slightly different market, as is the linux primordial ooze distros. Yo keep hoping that something livable and viable with rise from the pits, but half-formed mutants are the normal result.

This does not challenge the fact that Microsoft has an operating systems monopoly in the desktop market.

Linux Hater has run out of things to say.

whitetigersx said...

"Idiots like you seem to think corporations should be free to walk all over people and take giant shits on the free market. Well you're wrong, freedom has to be enforced, and when a company attempts..."

No, I don't, I know that there are different rules for monopolies, but ethically you can't say do as I want not as I do. There's nothing wrong with restraining a monopoly should they be spawned. What I'm saying, in case you're too dense to comprehend, is that don't claim you're better or morally superior while doing things that your opponent isn't allowed to use. I'm saying that doing so is hypocritical. An OS shouldn't tout it being better because it comes with all this software when it's competitor isn't allowed to offer a comparable product - it's not an even field when one is already handicapped.

Anonymous said...

@julian67: ... is a stroke of genius, an exhibition of logical thinking combined with dazzling debating skills of which any chimpanzee would be rightly proud.

Thanks for the entirely content-free post, luser. Try to keep up with me here, if you can. SMB2 is a huge improvement over SMB. It allows networks to better scale data traffic. You may think that the addition of any new technology to Windows is anti-competitive but, if Microsoft were gated by your narrow thinking, then no improvements would be possible. At all. No anti-trust court has said that Microsoft can't innovate. What they've said is that Microsoft can't innovate in a way that leverages its monopoly in one market (desktops) to extend dominance into another market (eg. servers) without providing equal footing to competitors. At the same time, the court acknowledged that Microsoft shouldn't be compelled to give away its technology to competitors; but, rather, a reasonable license fee is in order. Microsoft licensed the SMB2 protocol to Samba. Samba is now free to provide interoperable solutions based on the new protocol. Hence, there is no anti-competitive behavior here. So, narrow-minded bigots like you can go fuck yourselves in the ass...

Anonymous said...

@anonymous: A decent Web developer does not write non-standard code.

That's not quite true. Decent Web developers are not immune to subtle differences in rendering artifacts and OM semantics from one browser to another; consequently, nearly all Web developers have code which attempts to leverage the least common denominator browser settings and, failing that, has exception logic for differing platforms. Denying it is ridiculous. You may claim, "But, gee, I'm using [blah-dee-blah] script library or framework, and it hides the complexity from me". To which I say, you're not avoiding "non-standard code". You're simply hiding it by sweeping it under the rug.

You say this because you know we'll bring it up. The reason we'll bring it up is because it isn't bullshit.

It IS bullshit, precisely because no browser perfectly implements standards. Ever.

Only if you've been ignoring them for years. I note that other browsers manage to implement standards and get backwars compatibility working.

Um, no, they don't. For example, Firefox 3 does not pass the Acid3 rendering test. Freetards tend to pick and choose which "standards" they think are most important by identifying which ones IE doesn't support -- and then using those standards like a club to beat the IE team with. All the while, ignoring which standards Firefox isn't meeting. It's all just the same old bullshit trench warfare that we've come to expect from lusers.

IE7 is a little better but a non-trivial design still requires an annoying amount of time spent hacking CSS. Firefox, Opera, Webkit etc. all work as near to perfectly as most designers need.

Given that you don't provide any EXAMPLES, I call bullshit.

You just repeated what's already been said without taking into account the other arguments introduced. The rules are different for monopolies, and intention is important.

Lusers are a hypocritical breed. You tend to complain about monopoly power when it suits you, but then you turn around and do exactly what Microsoft has done with IE, and bundle Firefox with your OS. Get this concept straight. It isn't anti-competitive to offer a Web browser with a monopoly operating system. What's anti-competitive is preventing other Web browsers from competing in the same space. That isn't happening, and Firefox's rapid increase in market share is clear evidence.

Idiots like you seem to think corporations should be free to walk all over people and take giant shits on the free market. Well you're wrong, freedom has to be enforced, and when a company attempts to abuse their monopoly in one market to gain one in another they must be stopped.

Corporations are free to COMPETE in the market. They're free to innovate and try to offer a better product. They're NOT free to prevent competitors from offering a competing product on their monopoly platform. But none of that has ever been charged. Firefox, Opera, Netscape, and all the other Web browsers run just fine on Windows, can be downloaded freely, run without restrictions or prejudice, etc. So, really, you have no legitimate complaint. You're simply whining about the fact that MS owns the principal desktop platform and, therefore, has more real estate for its own offerings. Well, fuck you. Nobody ever said that it would be EASY to unseat Microsoft. Expecting it as such is just the ultimate in whining pussydom.

Digit said...

I have been following this blog for a time...

I use both Windows Xp SP2 and Ubuntu Linux, both work almost seamlessly, I can work everyday with them.

It's quite obvious that the claims pro-Microsoft anti-Linux of this site are as immensely exaggerated and stilted as the pro-Linux anti-Microsoft people claims are.

Regarding the browsers, I only use Firefox, and will never ever return to IE. I still remember 5 years ago, the pop-ups, crashes, casino online, ActiveX... terrible, never more.

And some people here in his fanaticism (on the opposite side of we are use to see), even sings the virtues of Vista. I mean, yes, XP is criticized without reason much times, but Vista... C'mon. I have seen it, you have seen it, it's crap.

Anonymous said...

No, you lack the critical thinking ability to understand that two people (companies or organisations) can do the same thing, but with different intentions.

He understands all that he needs to know: That you're a bunch of whining pussies hiding under the skirt of "monopoly" prosecution, while doing everything in your power to duplicate Microsoft's success without any kind of scrutiny. You're all fucking hypocrite bastards. You know it. We know it. You have the same intentions as Microsoft: to own the Desktop OS and Web platforms. And, quite frankly, I'd rather see Microsoft win because (a) Microsoft creates jobs throughout the industry, (b) I like to get paid, (c) you lusers aren't offering anything new or better than Microsoft, just duplicative effort, (d) you're a bunch of whining pussies who constantly complain about the lamest shit and formulate the most ridiculous tinfoil conspiracy theories possible, and (e) FOSS software is utter unmaintainable crap.

Microsoft leverage their OS monopoly, by bundling apps, in order to crush their competition.

And YET, Microsoft cannot possibly crush Firefox or any of the apps against which it is competing; in fact, the rise of Firefox is direct evidence that bundling isn't helping Microsoft at all. What helps Microsoft is when it has a better product. Big surprise there. What other "bundled apps" are crushing competition? MSPaint? Notepad? Wordpad? Calc? MediaPlayer? Face it: You have no clue. None of these apps is "crushing" anyone.

Apple and Linux distros bundle apps to differentiate their products from the competition, to add value.

Oh, puh-lease. Apple is a tight-fisted dictator when it comes to application-bundling. They do it to leverage their own dominance in media (iTunes), not to add value. As for Linux distros, the morons who put them together pretty much have no clue about what they're doing or why they're doing it. Nobody pays attention to them. They're the equivalent of the geek nerd kid in the AV room in your old high school, smelling like ether and sniffing their own fingers.

If you are unable to see the difference then you are emotionally retarded and should seek mental help.

Emotionally retarded? WTF do "emotions" have to do with anything? Oh, right. You whining pussies have your emotional panties in a bunch again over some new conspiracy theory or what-not. What a douche. Seriously, do us all a favor and put a bullet in your own head.

All us Web developers have been suffering the consequences of this for years, so don't try to patronise us by saying otherwise. Thousands of hours have been wasted due to Microsoft's jamming on the brakes on IE development.

Rrrrright. You blame Microsoft for not innovating against non-existent competition. Meanwhile, you give your FOSS butt-buddies a pass for not even competing in the first place. Fuck you, whiny bitches.

Anonymous said...

Your missing the point. MS is the MARKET LEADER, therefore it has direct responsibility for the non-existant competition. Its Microsoft's fault there is no competition. Please get your facts straight. Only a MS shill would argue otherwise.

Anonymous said...

No, I don't, I know that there are different rules for monopolies, but ethically you can't say do as I want not as I do.

Wow, how many times do I have to repeat myself. Microsoft is leveraging a monopoly, Apple and Fosstards are adding value.

This is not the same thing, so Apple and the Fosstards are not doing the same as Microsoft.

I have now explained this enough times for even a child to understand it.

This blog started out as useful critique of Linux (which in many ways sucks balls), but with this post it has jumped the shark. Linux Hater has run out of things to say; so to put my 'money where my mouth is' I will leave and not bother reading this blog anymore. I'll leave you Wintards with your credulous mutual masturbation circle.

Don't worry, I won't let the door hit me on the way out, fucking cunts. :)

IE7 is a little better but a non-trivial design still requires an annoying amount of time spent hacking CSS. Firefox, Opera, Webkit etc. all work as near to perfectly as most designers need.

Given that you don't provide any EXAMPLES, I call bullshit.


http://www.downloadsquad.com/2006/08/08/internet-explorer-7-sucks-on-standards/

http://www.builderau.com.au/news/soa/Microsoft-admits-IE7-will-fail-standards-test/0,339028227,339201540,00.htm

http://www.idealog.us/2006/08/microsoft_drops.html

Hope you die soon.

Anonymous said...

Your missing the point. MS is the MARKET LEADER, therefore it has direct responsibility for the non-existant competition. Its Microsoft's fault there is no competition. Please get your facts straight. Only a MS shill would argue otherwise.

Ah, so let me get this straight: In your world, because Microsoft is the market leader in, say, Web browsers, no competition can exist? What a fucked-up perspective. Tell me something, genius, at which point did Microsoft stop being the market leader so that Firefox could step in and start competing? What a maroon. I can't count the number of times that you morons have said how Microsoft can't destroy you because you're open source, can't target you because you don't have an organization, offices, payroll, etc... So, which is it? Is Firefox a figment of everyone's imagination -- or will you admit that Firefox's ability to compete has nothing to do with Microsoft's market dominance -- and everything to do with the quality of their offering?

Anonymous said...

Wow, how many times do I have to repeat myself. Microsoft is leveraging a monopoly, Apple and Fosstards are adding value.

Wrong. If Microsoft were merely leveraging a monopoly, they wouldn't even bother with developing IE8, IE9, etc. So, WTF are they doing? ADDING VALUE, dumbass, and nobody can claim that IE8's features (ie. standards compliance, improved rendering, CSS, etc) are anything but that. Even if YOU don't find those features compelling, plenty of people will. So, fuck yourself.

http://www.downloadsquad.com/2006/08/08/internet-explorer-7-sucks-on-standards/

This is the best you can do? An article from 2 years ago?!? WTF about IE8? Fuck you.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/default.mspx

Anonymous said...

@digit: And some people here in his fanaticism (on the opposite side of we are use to see), even sings the virtues of Vista. I mean, yes, XP is criticized without reason much times, but Vista... C'mon. I have seen it, you have seen it, it's crap.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You douchebags said the same thing about XP when it was first released and, now, it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, blah, blah, blah. The fact of the matter is that most OSes SUCK ass when they're first released, but they do get better in subsequent service packs. XP didn't hit its stride until SP2 came out. So, quite frankly, expecting Vista to be trouble-free right out of the gate is just unrealistic and stupid. Of course there are going to be issues. Pretending that they can't be fixed is your problem.

PrezKennedy said...

I'm sorry, but the Olympics are boring. Why don't you go out and watch the grass grow? At least then you aren't supporting a government like China, and an organization like the IOC. And hey, just as exciting!

Lol Lolovici said...

@anonymous "Wrong. If Microsoft were merely leveraging a monopoly, they wouldn't even bother with developing IE8, IE9, etc. So, WTF are they doing? ADDING VALUE, dumbass"

Wrong. You picked a poor example for this. If you chosen, say, Visual Studio then it would be valid. But IE is exactly the kind of monopoly leveraging MS got screwed for.

They didn't bother to keep it updated as long as there was no real alternative. Think IE6. Do you know how many years that was available? Only when IE got way behind new alternatives they developed a newer version as a result of market pressure (ie. losing the monopoly).

Lookie here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer. So version came out like 1995, 1996, 1997, 1999, 2001 (IE6), 2006 (IE7), 2007 (IE8)... What could have happened between 2001 and 2006. I know! They were busy driving that innovation.

Document before talking.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous

False, I replaced Windows 98 SE with XP and never came back. Vista only lasted 2 weeks on my laptop.

Do you remember the speed of Windows XP expansion ? It was incredible. Now, I only see Vista if it was preinstalled and the owner doesn't care / doesn't know how to change the OS. Very few people uses vista "by choice".

Anonymous said...

Regarding the browsers, I only use Firefox, and will never ever return to IE. I still remember 5 years ago, the pop-ups, crashes, casino online, ActiveX... terrible, never more.

IE6 was garbage. IE7, however, is like a gift from the gods in comparison. Pop-ups are just as uncommon as in Firefox, I haven't seen one crash since I moved to IE7, and activeX has been made far more secure. Also, because of UAC virtualizing lower permissions than the user, IE7 in Vista is by far the most secure browser available.

And some people here in his fanaticism (on the opposite side of we are use to see), even sings the virtues of Vista. I mean, yes, XP is criticized without reason much times, but Vista... C'mon. I have seen it, you have seen it, it's crap.

I used to think so too before I gave it a serious chance. The problem is so many people go into Vista and then they do the following: turn off UAC, make themselves the administrator (these first too completely undermining a huge security effort to have people run as standard user), turn off shadow copy, turn off superfetch (really stupid thing to do), turn off indexing (which is vastly improved over XP), and some even turn off desktop composition, and then complain there's nothing new to Vista. Of course there's nothing new for you; YOU DISABLED MOST OF IT. Honestly, Vista is a really secure OS that runs really, really well on the right hardware (just have a gig of RAM or more, at least an Intel GMA X3100, and no obscure external components from a company that went bankrupt 5 years ago and you're golden). Since SP1 was released, it's also perfectly stable; I'd even go so far as to say more so than XP ever has been or ever will be. It's designed well from the ground up. It's just been given the bum's wrap because people are afraid of change, because people who are fanatical about other OSes trash it, and because people are getting most of their information about Vista from Apple ads.

So version came out like 1995, 1996, 1997, 1999, 2001 (IE6), 2006 (IE7), 2007 (IE8)... What could have happened between 2001 and 2006. I know! They were busy driving that innovation.

2001 to 2002: working on the IE6 improvements found in Windows Server 2003; 2002 to 2004: working on the security and performance increases to IE6 found in XP SP2, working on the pre-2004-Longhorn-reboot of IE7; 2004 to 2006: working on the IE7 that we know today based on the Windows Server IE6. You have to understand that IE7 was designed from the get go was supposed to release with Longhorn, and having to almost completely restart development of that in 2004 profoundly affected a lot of apps at microsoft.

shevegen said...

I disagree about the part concerning Firefox.

Firefox actually grew slowly. It was an uphill battle.

I dont like Mozilla Corporation too much either but at least they listen more to users than Microsoft does, and firefox is - although it has a few shortcomings - still the best browser as far as I am concerned.

I just wish people would stop promoting XML.

XML stinks. It should die.

Anonymous said...

Xandros offing Linspire

http://www.linux.com/feature/144307

Winston said...

Microsoft leverage their OS monopoly, by bundling apps, in order to crush their competition. Apple and Linux distros bundle apps to differentiate their products from the competition, to add value. If you are unable to see the difference then you are emotionally retarded and should seek mental help.

My fault, I gotcha. Microsoft should just ship Windows with nothing. That makes sense. Let their competition catch up.

It would appear YOU lack the critical thinking skills to use basic common sense. You're a fucking idiot with no concept of what competition really is. What you would have Microsoft do is remove any bundled software to level the playing field. In effect, you want Microsoft to let the competition win by delivering an inferior product. Why you would expect them to do that defies all logic.

Anonymous said...

Linsux.

Anonymous said...

@ Fransicso
In the Olympics there it was a huge bsod.
I've seen BSOD in ATM machines, airports departure and arrivals boards, but this one is huge...
Take a look


Take a look at this for comparison:
- Smart phone linux crash:
http://www.miguelcarrasco.net/miguelcarrasco/WindowsLiveWriter/LinuxCrashTop10Images_A04C/linux_crash_132_1.jpg
- airplane video linux crash:
http://www.miguelcarrasco.net/miguelcarrasco/WindowsLiveWriter/LinuxCrashTop10Images_A04C/linux_crash_63_2.jpg
- metro system linux crash:
http://www.miguelcarrasco.net/miguelcarrasco/WindowsLiveWriter/LinuxCrashTop10Images_A04C/linux_crash_82_2.jpg
- train info linux crash:
http://www.miguelcarrasco.net/miguelcarrasco/WindowsLiveWriter/LinuxCrashTop10Images_A04C/linux_crash_train_52_2.jpg
- my favorite, on a linux rally:
http://www.miguelcarrasco.net/miguelcarrasco/WindowsLiveWriter/LinuxCrashTop10Images_A04C/linux_crash_127_1.jpg

.net jerkface said...

AMD built its business by reverse-engineering intel processors and yet today we have people complaining about how difficult it is to reverse-engineer a bloody network protocol. We have a government body (EU) that has even fined MS billions over this.

Just because you don't have the means to enter a market does make that market inaccessible. Note that in a tech market this can mean not only financial capital but technical capital as well.

If a small group of programmers can build an OS with Win98 compatibility (React OS) I think it is entirely possible for a company like IBM to enter the desktop market and provide a competing product, especially when OS|X continues to make market gains.

Nothing is stopping a company like Apple from creating a web applications platform that is installed through a plugin. They could have created one even before IE6.

MS should not be blamed for having a lack of competition when other companies with significant capital choose to not compete.

Anonymous said...

I thought LH was savvy enough not to pathetically rationalize Microsoft's abusive monopoly behavior.

This post really does marginalize the insights made in the other posts on this blog: the audio and video architecture snafus, the lack of a defined desktop platform, the shortcomings of the F/OSS development model.

Also LH ignores, though that is his prerogative, how the emergence of FOSS has given a good healthy scare (and restored some sense of competition) to what used to be a criminally lazy and irresponsible PC software culture.

This blogger wails about the unbalanced attitudes in FOSS, yet readily becomes what he so hates.

I never turned on JavaScript or ads for this site, and doubt I'll even return to visit now that I know LH is a petty MS shill.

Enjoy your viruses and rampant crime syndicates.

Anonymous said...

They didn't bother to keep it updated as long as there was no real alternative. Think IE6. Do you know how many years that was available? Only when IE got way behind new alternatives they developed a newer version as a result of market pressure (ie. losing the monopoly).

So the real problem was that alternative browsers did suck badly back then, not the bundling of IE with Windows.

Anonymous said...

WINDORKS! WINDORKS! WINDORKS! WINDORKS! WINDORKS! WINDORKS! WINDORKS! WINDORKS!

Anonymous said...

@anonymous: "I thought LH was savvy enough not to pathetically rationalize Microsoft's abusive monopoly behavior."

Dude, maybe it exceeded the limits of your attention span, but Microsoft's so-called "abusive monopoly behavior" was dealt with 8 fucking years ago by the DOJ settlement -- and, 4 years ago, when the EU forced MS to open up some of its technology to competitors. I'm not sure what else there is to say. The "abusive behavior", as you call it, has been corrected. I realize that that will never be good enough for you freetards and, thus, you like to pretend that "abusive monopoly behavior" is ongoing, but you need to grow up, become adults, and focus on competing rather than complaining.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous: "Wrong. You picked a poor example for this. If you chosen, say, Visual Studio then it would be valid. But IE is exactly the kind of monopoly leveraging MS got screwed for."

You missed the point entirely. If Microsoft were solely interested in leveraging its monopoly, then it wouldn't have to do a single thing. It would never have had to invest in IE7 or IE8 or beyond. Because IE currently enjoys anywhere between 60% to 80% of the web browser market (depending on who you ask for data). Most Firefox usage is on the WINDOWS platform -- not Linux -- so the choice of Web browser hasn't reduced Microsoft's desktop monopoly (or its server market share) AT ALL; in fact, during this same time frame, Microsoft's Windows Server market share has actually INCREASED at Linux's expense. Microsoft's interest in IE8 has more to do with being in a position to help drive Web 2.0 standards than anything else.

Anonymous said...

I just wish people would stop promoting XML. XML stinks. It should die.

I don't agree. Your comment is a bit too broad. XML defines a base schema for the organization of data. I would certainly agree that XML isn't suitable for all types of data and for all uses, but it DOES serve a very useful purpose in defining a rational schema for interchangeable data. Before XML, people had to deal with all kinds of fucked-up formats like IDL with all their inherent problems (Endian-ness, cyclical formatting, etc) and arcane data transfer mechanisms (OLE/Corba, RPC). So, from a pragmatic standpoint, XML has helped out a great deal. Of course, when using XML, you need to adopt reasonable policies. For example, you don't need to have ALL your data be in XML -- just what makes sense. People sometimes tend to go overboard with XML (perhaps that's really what you're complaining about) and they pay the price in terms of excessive parsing, re-serialization, etc.

julian67 said...

"Dude, maybe it exceeded the limits of your attention span, but Microsoft's so-called "abusive monopoly behavior"

It wasn't "so-called" abusive monpoly behaviour. It was actual abusive monopoly behaviour. Doh!

And the EU case didn't finish 4 years ago. The judgement was made 4 years ago, after which Microsoft refused to comply with the commission. That's what resulted in them paying €2 million daily on top of the original penalty. I believe they are the only company which has decided to publicly reject and disregard the EU's laws after a Commission judgement, hence the €2 million daily fine. MS finally agreed to comply on 22 October 2007 and have subsequently been fined for their earlier refusal to comply. They are appealing.

But well done for demonstrating your willingness to anonymously post complete crap despite the facts being freely available and easily checked.

Anonymous said...

"And the EU case didn't finish 4 years ago. The judgement was made 4 years ago, after which Microsoft refused to comply with the commission."



Oh wow. The EU Lawsuit was so fucking frivolous. Penalized for adding a damn media player with windows and not documenting for the rest of the world how their OWN PROPRIETARY server protocols work. How fucking retarded is that.


The amount of excuses for Linux failure on the desktop are staggering. The EU lawsuit has nothing to do with the OS market share. And besides it has nothing to do with the US.

julian67 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
julian67 said...

"Oh wow. The EU Lawsuit was so fucking frivolous. Penalized for adding a damn media player with windows and not documenting for the rest of the world how their OWN PROPRIETARY server protocols work. How fucking retarded is that."

If you think it's just about bundling you're the retard. The case started due to illegal licensing practises. OEMs selling PCs/servers were forced to pay MS a fee for each PC sold even if it shipped with no OS or with a non MS OS. If they refused then MS took sanctions such as raising the prices of their OEM licenses to make them uncompetitive with OEMs who did comply with MS's illegal demands, or refusing to supply them at all. This is illegal (surprise). The issue of bundling was just one of the things that arose from investigation and is focused on by the news media as it's easier for journalists to interest educationally subnormal persons such as yourself in very simple things like fat ass media players with happy shiny interfaces.


"The amount of excuses for Linux failure on the desktop are staggering. The EU lawsuit has nothing to do with the OS market share. And besides it has nothing to do with the US."

Yes, it's true if it doesn't directly and blindingly obviously affect the US and your street specifically then large numbers of drooling cretins such as yourself may see it as irrelevant.

I can't help thinking that coercion based on illegal licensing might have some impact on market share. Your views, as a hopeless fucking idiot, may vary.

Anonymous said...

Isn't obvious that LinuxHater is a Microsoft shill?

http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/10/linuxhater-alert/

http://boycottnovell.com/2007/11/23/astroturfing-microsoft-examples/

Anonymous said...

In the earlier posts, the Linux hater had insightful and enlightened things to say about Desktop Linux (peace be upon the kernel). He has now jumped the shark with $POST_NAME on $POST_TOPIC. Furthermore, I am saddened by his constant misspellings of the terms 'Windo$e', 'Winblows', and 'Microshaft', etc., and his denial of the Microsoft-led Holocaust of Linux users. Finally, $MORONIC_PROFANITY.

I am sure he is truly saddened to learn that I will no longer read his blog; those daily five minutes will now be spent reading the phone book.

(Note: this post is the first test of a script (available GPL licensed) to add this comment to all future posts. This should prove to be a major time saver.)

paul said...

OEMs selling PCs/servers were forced to pay MS a fee for each PC sold even if it shipped with no OS or with a non MS OS.

No. The EU action had nothing to do with this.

Luser. Get your facts right. The EU case was one of the more frivolous uses of regulatory power we've ever seen on the globe. And now, four years later, it was pretty clear it was an absolutely worthless exercise in anti-American sentiment: the playing field is EXACTLY the same as it was when the EU began its actions, and Linux's desktop market share remains at a pathetic 1 percent.

paul said...

Heh. Bringing up the tin-foil-hatted Roy Schestowitz as evidence of anything shows how pathetic lusers really are. Hell, even the mainstream lusers at slashdot and linux.com dismiss him as being a paranoidal freak. His posting pretty much validates everything LH says: Roy says anyone who says anything bad about Linux MUST be a Microsoft shill. What a pathetic Luser he is, and what a pathetic luser you are for bringing him into the conversation.

Hell, Roy is now arguing DIGG is too anti-Linux for his taste and must be filled with Microsoft employees! Geez. For Roy, it's Linux uber alles, and anyone who disagrees is on the take. But guess what: there are enough people who hate Linux "advocates" who don't need to take a dollar from anyone else to express that deep disgust. We'll do it for free.

julian67 said...

Paul "No. The EU action had nothing to do with this."

Errr, completely wrong.

Try some facts, no need to rely on hearsay or tech blogs or wikipedia or anonymous posters. It's all available from the ECIS (European Committee for Interoperable Systems) itself.

http://www.ecis.eu/issues/CFI_Microsoft.htm


You'll enjoy it, it's offered in MS .doc

paul said...

http://www.ecis.eu/issues/CFI_Microsoft.htm

Heh. Too bad the documents don't actually back up what you say. They cite Microsoft for not sharing interoperability data and bundling media player. Nothing about predatory pricing there AT ALL.

I invite EVERYONE to look at those docs and decide if Julian was right. Go ahead; please, take a look. The first link at that site gives you a rather succinct timeline of what the EU did.

Once again you show yourself to be a complete fraud.

julian67 said...

The reference is there. 2nd link, open the doc, page 2 reference Novell. It's an extremely brief summary. Possession of ounce of curiosity and a search engine reveals all ;-)

Anonymous said...

Isn't obvious that LinuxHater is a Microsoft shill?

http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/10/linuxhater-alert/

http://boycottnovell.com/2007/11/23/astroturfing-microsoft-examples/


The boycottnovell guy is a convicted luser:

http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

julian67 said...

If you prefer a summary, one is available from the NY Times 22nd October 2007

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/technology/22cnd-soft.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

You can read one of the initial media reports of the complaints made by Novell at http://news.cnet.com/2100-1023_3-204317.html

The complaints are essentially identical to the complaints made in the USA, an example of which can be found at http://www.techlawjournal.com/courts/caldera/Default.htm

quote:

3. Microsoft has erected artificial barriers to the entry and growth of competing operating systems vendors through its contractual relations with original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) of PCs and other predatory conduct, which have had the effect of excluding competitors from the DOS Market, a market in which Microsoft has monopoly power. These practices have included the following:

* (a) License agreements which required OEMs to pay royalties to Microsoft not only when they sold PCs containing Microsoft's MS-DOS, but also when they sold PCs containing competing DOS Software or no DOS Software ("per processor licenses");
* (b) Unreasonably long terms for license agreements with OEMs for the use of Microsoft's MS-DOS software;
* (c) Pricing schemes and other license terms and enforcement practices that effectively have required OEMs to purchase their entire DOS Software requirements from Microsoft;
* (d) Tying arrangements under which Microsoft required OEMs to purchase MS-DOS to the exclusion of competing DOS Software products, in particular DR DOS and Novell DOS, in order to obtain its Windows 3.x software programs (or to obtain Windows 3.x at a reduced price) or to be given access to other essential information, product support and service;


etc etc etc ad infinitum.

It's worth remembering that judgement was against MS in the anti-trust cases both in the USA and in Europe. If that upsets you and you don't want to believe that's up to you.

Microsoft didn't finally agree to comply with the EU's laws until 6 months ago.

Fraud is an interesting word to use in this context Paul

Anonymous said...

@julian67: "And the EU case didn't finish 4 years ago. The judgement was made 4 years ago, after which Microsoft refused to comply with the commission. That's what resulted in them paying €2 million daily on top of the original penalty. I believe they are the only company which has decided to publicly reject and disregard the EU's laws after a Commission judgement, hence the €2 million daily fine. MS finally agreed to comply on 22 October 2007 and have subsequently been fined for their earlier refusal to comply. They are appealing."

Let's cut through your bullshit with a broadsword. You neglected to mention that, over the course of the past 4 years, Microsoft wasn't just sitting on its hands, appealing verdicts. First, it removed Media Player from Windows, producing a special EU-ordered version of Windows that NOBODY WANTED. That was the most fucked-up thing that I've ever seen and, if you think that that was effective in any way, then you're a fucking retarded moron. Second, Microsoft produced documentation for its protocols which the EU rejected. At the same time, evidence emerged that the EU and its "expert" was actively colluding with Microsoft rivals (Sun, IBM, Novell, and Oracle). Besides the documentation, Microsoft offered to provide source code for its protocols but that was deemed "insufficient". I mean, WTF?!? Samba has been reverse-engineering the SMB protocol with little more than packet traces, and you can't tell me that Samba couldn't use the source code to get the job done. Half of the wrangling over the last 4 years has caused by the EU, so don't even try to lay all the blame on Microsoft's shoulders.

Bottom line: There is no abusive monopoly behavior. It's been taken care of. But that won't stop freetards from constantly banging that drum whenever it suits you. The only thing that would make you happy would be if some government bureacrat stepped in and forced OEMs to offer Linux on PCs. But, given that no consumer wants Linux -- hell, you can't even give the fucking thing away for free -- that's never gonna happen.

Anonymous said...

@julian67: "The case started due to illegal licensing practises. OEMs selling PCs/servers were forced to pay MS a fee for each PC sold even if it shipped with no OS or with a non MS OS. If they refused then MS took sanctions such as raising the prices of their OEM licenses to make them uncompetitive with OEMs who did comply with MS's illegal demands, or refusing to supply them at all."

No, Julian, you're wrong and Paul is right. The EU case was brought about by complaints from Microsoft rivals over two primary issues: (1) bundling of Windows Media Player, and (2) Windows client using network protocols to leverage desktop monopoly into servers. That's it. RealNetworks complained about (1). IBM, Sun, and Novell were complaining about (2).

The chronology at http://www.ecis.eu/issues/documents/Chronology_Complete.doc covers events that the EU undertook. It doesn't encompass historical actions that were performed in the United States by the DOJ. You are mistakenly attributing enforcement actions by the DOJ over OEM deals to the EU. The EU had nothing to do with those events and, when you look at the EU chronology, it becomes obvious that the only 2 issues that it undertook were Media Player and Server Protocols. That's it.

Here's a challenge. Show me a link to any documentation which proves that the EU court ordered Microsoft NOT to extract a per-processor license fee from OEMs. Take as much time as you need. But, really, I wouldn't encourage you to go off and do that research because it's a total waste of time. The EU wasn't involved in the per-processor licensing issue at all. That was totally run by the US DOJ, and pretending otherwise is just fucking retarded.

julian67 said...

I didn't say they hadn't finally complied. Obviously they did eventually. I'm sure they intended to all along and that the €2 million daily fine was just that last little bit of encouragement they needed. The subsequent €280.5 million fine and daily €1.5 million fine were assuredly just side issues in their decision to accept the decisions of the commission and ultimately a court of appeal.

"At the same time, evidence emerged that the EU and its "expert" was actively colluding with Microsoft rivals (Sun, IBM, Novell, and Oracle)."

Evidence? Proof? Mere assertion by a MS fanboy?

"There is no abusive monopoly behavior"

How would you know that? By basing your opinion on MS's famous respect for the free market...oh wait..

"But, given that no consumer wants Linux -- hell, you can't even give the fucking thing away for free -- that's never gonna happen."

Yeah that Michael Dell, what a freetard. Asus? Freetards. HP? Freetards. Lenovo? Freetards. IBM? Freetards.

Asus Splashtop/Express Gate is going to be on every Asus motherboard.

Me? I'll stick to XP N, the best version of Windows ever produced.

Anonymous said...

@julian67

//Yeah that Michael Dell, what a freetard. Asus? Freetards. HP? Freetards. Lenovo? Freetards. IBM? Freetards.//

Of that list, so far, only Dell and Asus offer *DESKTOP* Linux machines. And they don't sell all that well.

And, er, you know, this blog is kinda about Linux ON THE DESKTOP. But anyway.

julian67 said...

"Here's a challenge. Show me a link to any documentation which proves that the EU court ordered Microsoft NOT to extract a per-processor license fee from OEMs. Take as much time as you need."

It wasn't the court. The commission is not a court, it's part of the executive. If its decisions are subsequently appealed then this appeal is dealt with by courts. The commission directed MS to stop their illegal licensing practises in respect of complaints from SCO and Novell. The complaints from Novell eventually led to the famous and recently concluded European Commission anti-trust case.

http://origin.foxnews.com/wires/2007Sep16/0,4670,EUMicrosoft,00.html

http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/speeches/text/sp1998_005_en.html

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1023_3-204317.html

There is a lot of documentation if you care to know about it. If you don't care to know about it apparently google fails to find it. Spooky.

Anonymous said...

julian67: "Evidence? Proof? Mere assertion by a MS fanboy?"

No, this is a matter of public record. The EU's "expert" was encouraged to solicit information from Microsoft's rivals, and he apparently did so without fact-checking or verification of any kind.

http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft_Accuses_EU_of_Collusion/1141322713

http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=5494

http://www.networkcomputing.com/channels/storageandservers/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=181500784

How would you know that? By basing your opinion on MS's famous respect for the free market...oh wait..

A. Microsoft has complied with the terms of all previous antitrust agreements.

B. There are no pending antitrust enforcement actions against Microsoft.

Yeah that Michael Dell, what a freetard. Asus? Freetards. HP? Freetards. Lenovo? Freetards. IBM? Freetards.

I'm talking about consumers, dickweed. Consumers aren't interested. Thanks for playing.

Asus Splashtop/Express Gate is going to be on every Asus motherboard.

Irrelevant. Consumers don't buy motherboards. They buy packaged systems from OEMs -- and, if those OEMs use Asus motherboards, they'll be paving over this shit with Windows. Thanks for playing.

Me? I'll stick to XP N, the best version of Windows ever produced.

What a fucking retard you are. The absence of Media Player in XP N doesn't add a single thing to the desktop experience AT ALL. You don't even have to use Media Player, if you install WinAmp or some other alternative.

julian67 said...

"Of that list, so far, only Dell and Asus offer *DESKTOP* Linux machines.
"


I listed Dell, Asus, HP, Lenovo and IBM. Of those *all* except IBM supply either desktops and laptops with Linux based OS. Some offer both.

You're a fucking cretin.

"And they don't sell all that well."

Dell, Lenovo (Thinkpad, heard of that?), Asus, HP...don't sell well???

You're a fucking cretin.

Anonymous said...

@julian67: http://origin.foxnews.com/wires/2007Sep16/0,4670,EUMicrosoft

Page Cannot Be Found. Nice.

http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/speeches/text/

HTTP 404 Not Found. Nice.

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1023_3-204317.html

Bullshit. Microsoft signed a consent decree with the US DOJ regarding Novell and DR DOS. The EU wasn't involved in the consent decree AT ALL.

Anonymous said...

@julian67: "Dell, Lenovo (Thinkpad, heard of that?), Asus, HP...don't sell well???"

No, douchebag. They're so bad that OEMs aren't even willing to give out sales numbers. Even trying to *find* Linux desktops on their websites is an exercise in FAILURE.

IBM Desktop Linux Plan Faces Steep Challenges
http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/29351

julian67 said...

If the links I posted don't work for you then try a better browser. Suggestions: Konqueror, Epiphany.....

.net jerkface said...

To Linux defenders who keep bringing up the OEM bundling issue:
Did Microsoft ever prevent people from installing Linux over older versions of Windows? Why wasn't there a move from Windows 98 to Linux if it was so great? Why are more people today using Windows 2000 than Linux?

Oh and congrats Linux Hater, you have finally been accused of being a microsoft front by one of the gpl bloggers.
http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/10/linuxhater-alert/

(gets teary eyed and emotional)
I knew you could do it! I just knew you could!

Anonymous said...

Why do people hate novell? They're trying to work with Microsoft to make the Linux desktop experience better... freetards could not be any more stupid.

Anonymous said...

@julian67: "If the links I posted don't work for you then try a better browser. Suggestions: Konqueror, Epiphany....."

Um, rrrrrright. I get the same result with Firefox. So, go fuck yourself, twit.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous: "Why do people hate novell? They're trying to work with Microsoft to make the Linux desktop experience better... freetards could not be any more stupid."

It's their typical one-dimensional "the friend of my enemy must be my enemy" thinking. Without realizing, of course, that improving interoperability with Windows might actually result in more Windows customers moving in their direction. What a bunch of dumbfucks. Microsoft has been the beneficiary of stupid competitors for nearly 3 decades. Which just goes to show that there's no shortage of morons. Particularly freetards morons.

julian67 said...

It's just your sucky OS

Tom said...

It's just your sucky OS

Which one? Your URLs don't work with Seamonkey on Mandriva 2008.1 Pathetic luser...

julian67 said...

All the links are good. The anonymous person who posted examples of them not working has truncated them. How fucking incompetent and stupid are you people?

Copy and paste, what do you fuckwits need, remedial class for morons?

Copy the links from my post and they work, copy them from anonymous fuckwit's lame reply and they don't. Doh. You MS groupies are utterly ridiculous.

julian67 said...

Next week's lessons:

How to tie shoelaces.

How to eat without drooling.

Why rocking backwards and forwards in the foetal position while masturbating may not be the best form of exercise.

There's a Twinkie up for grabs for anyone who can spell their own name correctly.

Anonymous said...

@julian67:

You seem to get fixated on all the wrong details. Who the fuck gives a shit about broken links. This is the reason why you dumbfucks tend to get derailed so easily. Let's go back to the original issue. You claimed that the EU's involvement with Microsoft started with per-processor licensing deals with OEMs. HOWEVER, the EU wasn't involved in the consent decree between the DOJ and Microsoft which banned this practice. The EU may have "become interested" in Microsoft at that time. But so what. They essentially DID NOTHING. So, consequently, can I claim that *I* became involved with the per-processor licensing debacle, since I saw it on the fucking news?!? This is the type of bullshit that you're trying to sell, and nobody's buying. The EU became involved when American competitors complained about Windows Media Player and server protocols. That's the limit of their regulatory capacity -- and, quite frankly, it's been a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME. Linux is still stuck perpetually at sub-1% market share. Linux server market share is in decline relative to Windows. So, really, nobody gained. Except the fucking attorneys and the lifelong bureaucrats like Kroes who get paid to stir up controversy.

julian67 said...

I didn't get derailed, the people who got derailed are you dimwits who can't do a simple copy and paste yet call people lusers and freetards. Windows must be even easier than a Mac because fucking pinheads are apparently using it. Credit to MS for knowing their market.


Take what you like from the linked articles, ignore the stuff that doesn't suit you, who gives a fuck?

Anyone who genuinely wants to know can find out for themselves. It isn't a great read, there's an awful lot to wade through and multiple issues dealt with, so some of it os complex. If anyone can be bothered to find out for themselves instead of thinking a blog is a good place to get information they'll see that the US DoJ and EU Commission had a common interest in some of the issues and co-operated. That's a little different from you watching Fox but if you feel those are analagous then good luck.

Anonymous said...

Oh, and if you go to the NBC site, you can use this thing called Silverlight and watch tons of footage of sports that I never got to see before.

Only if your ISP has signed a deal with NBC, Cablevision customers are SoL along with AT&T except in New York.

Anonymous said...

I kind of like Linux. It is different than Windows ... better in some areas, worse in others.

What's the big deal? Am I missing the point of this Blog?

People like to tinker with Linux. You like to blog. Big whoop.

And what's with the cussing? You really lose what little credibility that you have.

Anonymous said...

@julian67: If anyone can be bothered to find out for themselves instead of thinking a blog is a good place to get information they'll see that the US DoJ and EU Commission had a common interest in some of the issues and co-operated.

Whether or not they shared information, there was no enforcement action by the EU on the per-processor licensing issue. The consent decree was signed by the DOJ and Microsoft. Not the EU. That's what we're talking was about here.

Furthermore, you may not know this but the DOJ actually intervened on Microsoft's behalf in 2006 to try to persuade the EU to go easy on Microsoft. Neely Kroes, the dumb bimbo in charge at the EU, said the request was "inappropriate". I think the DOJ was trying to her a favor, quite frankly, because she's dumber than a bag of hammers. Windows XP-N, indeed. What a fucking European tool. It's fine for her to stick her agency to stick its nose into American antitrust law, but not vice-versa. Fuck her.

http://windowsitpro.com/article/articleid/93654/us-lobbied-eu-for-microsoft.html

Anonymous said...

@anonymous: And what's with the cussing?

Fuck you, douchebag.

julian67 said...

For those unfortunates who can't pick a few sentences out of a document:

"By coincidence, the two cases that I would like to consider involve Microsoft. In 1994, as you all know, the US Department of Justice and the Commission negotiated jointly with Microsoft and obtained a consent decree and an undertaking on identical terms. Microsoft undertook not to grant licenses of more than one year's duration, not to impose minimum commitments on licenses and above all not to use "per processor" licenses requiring payment of a royalty on every computer, regardless of weather it was shipped with pre-installed Microsoft software. Existing licenses not fulfilling these requirements were not to be enforced."

Source:http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/speeches/text/sp1998_005_en.html as referenced earlier.

Person speaking: Jean Francois Pons, Deputy Director General of the EU's Competition Commission Directorate

Can you numbskulls now find something else to get wrong? This has become tedious. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

What's the big deal? Am I missing the point of this Blog?

It's essentially a continuation of the Unix Haters Handbook(PDF) or one of the most successful troll's around judging from the comments, but considering the attitude that many in "FOSS" carry around about their superiority they deserve to get their panties in a bunch every now and then.

Anonymous said...

Non biased review of Ubuntu Linsux:

http://www.shelleytherepublican.com/the-definitive-review-of-ubuntu-linux-804-hardy-heron


McCain for 2008 & death to Linsux!

God bless..

Anonymous said...

May I point out that the posters who have been arguing with julian67 are all Microsoft shills?

Why yes, yes I may.

Thank you very much.

julian67 said...

All those beautiful billions of dollars and who do they have for propaganda?

Illiterates. Knuckleheads. People who fail when following a link. People who think the USA is the world. People who last tried a distro in 1998 and are still traumatised. People who can't find publicly available information using a search engine. People who can't count past 10. People who don't know how many months make a year or the sequence of those months. People who shriek "freetard" and "luser" while exposing themselves as uninformed, credulous fools.

Exposing shortcomings or persistent frustrations with free software and its communities and advocates and debunking some myths and misrepresentations is pretty good imo, and particularly when done with a generous dose of venom and humour.

Once the arena changes and it's all about defending or promoting Microsoft then the value of this blog simply evaporates.

Anonymous said...

All those beautiful billions of dollars and who do they have for propaganda?

blah blah blah...

Everytime a linux fanboy is losing a debate about the flaw of Linux desktop in the technical matters they come with how MS is a monopoly, is evil, etc.

Bashing MS for its doubful behavior doesn't make Linux Desktop Technical problems dissapear.

Anonymous said...

@julian67

You apparently believe Windows users are idiots.

And, it's evident that you believe only highly intellectual people use Linux.

What if there are those who use both -- like me, and millions of others? Does that fact make your condescending head explode?

The bitterness spewing forth from your keyboard proves you are a typical rep of the Linux community, and you make us look bad. Please return to your mother's basement and remain silent, for the good of humanity.

Ron McKown said...

First off, just want to say thanks. I've spent a bit of time on your website and it really is entertaining.

I still haven't figured out if you're serious or not, so I have a response to either.

If you are not serious:
sweet, you're pretty entertaining. I'd pay money to hear you rant live about various subjects. Good show sir.


If you are serious: The only thing I can say here is that I've met a few people like you. Basically, you've put all your marbles into one bag, the Microsoft one. You know so much about Microsoft products that people you know look up to you for support. The thought of learning a whole new setup is appalling, but hey, you're a computer guy, right? So you roll up your sleeves and give it one hell of an honest shot, but you just can't wrap your head around it. You're not fucking around here, you get serious about learning this linux/unix thing but the learning curve is just not what you expected. I mean, you're a computer guy afterall, right?

Sometimes it's just easier to hate something than to learn it.

Basically, you are an expert with Microsoft products. Nothing wrong with that. The right tool for the right job, right?

I hope I didn't hurt your feelings. Seriously, your blog is funny. Thanks for the laugh.

phillip said...

Basically, you've put all your marbles into one bag, the Microsoft one. You know so much about Microsoft products that people you know look up to you for support.

You do realize that this blog is written by a Linux developer, right?

Rather nice spin on the "anyone who criticizes Linux must be a paid Microsoft shill" meme, though.

Thanks for playing, condescending fuck.

julian67 said...

"@julian67

You apparently believe Windows users are idiots.

And, it's evident that you believe only highly intellectual people use Linux.

What if there are those who use both -- like me, and millions of others? Does that fact make your condescending head explode?

The bitterness spewing forth from your keyboard proves you are a typical rep of the Linux community, and you make us look bad. Please return to your mother's basement and remain silent, for the good of humanity."


I use both too, daily, but using an OS doesn't make me blind to its faults, or the faults of its maker.

I prefer Debian and I appreciate that some aspects of Windows XP are better, but not many and not enough to make me like it all that much. Overall I prefer Debian and by a long way too. It doesn't mean I think it's perfect or that it doesn't have its frustrations.

What's all this with mothers and basements? Are you Windows fanboys all having some weird oedipal fixation? And a hang up about basements too...weird bastards. Fucking perverts as well as eejits huh?

.net jerkface said...


The thought of learning a whole new setup is appalling, but hey, you're a computer guy, right? So you roll up your sleeves and give it one hell of an honest shot, but you just can't wrap your head around it.


Could you not spend 10 minutes reading his previous entries to learn that he is not only serious about hating Linux but knows what he is talking about?

Some of the people here like myself are ex-linux users who not only grew tired of dealing with deficiencies in linux but also with people like you who can't handle criticism.

I really do hate Linux, not only as a desktop but also as a web server OS.

There was a time when it was better than NT for web serving but that time has passed.
A Server 08/IIS stack will in fact outserve a headless lamp stack, even with all that win32 bloat that Linux advocates decry Vista for having.
I think in fact that all the resources directed at the Linux desktop has caused it to stagnate as a server os.
Maybe Novell should have focused their resources on duplicating active directory instead of creating wobbly windows.
Thank god though that Linux has windows that wobble when you move them. I was wondering when they were going to fix the static windowing problem that people have been complaining about for years.

Ron McKown said...

@phillip

I don't play the game of which is better, because it's relative.

I believe in using the right tool for the right job.

For example:
my dad needs an OS so he can read his email. yay Microsoft!

I need an OS that can run a farm of mongrel clusters on Amazon's EC2, administer every slice via a tool like Puppet for deployment automation and scale the app horizontally across x number of instances automatically based on load. yay Linux!

The right tool for the job. It really is that simple.

Anonymous said...

Microsoft was an illegal monopoly in the past, but it has been under
court (and EU) supervision for a long time now. There were attempts to sell Linux PCs for several years, and they all failed.

Dell sold 40,000 (!) Linux PCs in the first year. It does not want to advertise Linux. Walmart kicked the Linux machines off its store shelves, and said "this is not
really what our customers are looking for." HP tried selling Linux PCs in Australia, but refused to extend the sales to other countries. All these companies, on
their own volition, decided Linux is unfit for most computer users. No amount of misdirection by the Linux bums to Microsoft's faults changes this fact.

It's not like the companies are conspiring against Linux.
If they were, why would they even attempt to sell Linux PCs in the first place? Why do Dell and HP have no problem selling Linux servers?

As LH and others before them have noted, Linux is fucked because of its own limitations. The bums keep changing interfaces and ABI's. Nobody can hope to distribute a binary for its 927 variants, and all their versions. Nobody can write an install script, a help page or a configuration script. There appears to be little design
or testing or quality control. Things that worked in the
previous release keep breaking in the latest release. And, the software repository concept is completely retarded.

Windows is a vastly superior operating system to Linux. If
MS screwed a competitor, it also developed great software for the world to use. What did the Linux bums ever do? Dump some half-assed software below cost?

Anonymous said...

> That's the problem with you Lusers. You think because you CAN do something you should. Some of you want so badly to do something with your empty lives you actually use an OS that's guaranteed to give you problems. Sorry, but that's a lifestyle choice the rest of us don't intend to swallow.

Yes, you'd rather troll about something on the internet you don't have the time to use, rather than actually use it.

That's so much more productive and time-saving...

Really, if your making a case that Linux is a waste of time, your posts and constant assertions of having valuable time sure are proving the exact opposite.

Anonymous said...

> Once the arena changes and it's all about defending or promoting Microsoft then the value of this blog simply evaporates.

Thanks for being the only credible voice on this blog now.

Seriously, it's time to put this blog to sleep. It had a short stint of popularity, but it isn't going anywhere. And this post just proves it.

IE better than Netscape? Not even hardline Windows would say such ignorant things. And seriously, there's nothing more retarded than a Microsoft defender, not even the much hated luser.

Anonymous said...

@julian67

You know you love your mom's basement, where you can suck off your freetard fag friends and masturbate to the latest Debian updates.

julian67 said...

Last time I visited the old dear she didn't have a basement, but I shall be sure to make a closer inspection in future. It sounds terribly exciting, can it be true?

I look forward to seeing you there fluffer boy :-)

Anonymous said...

"You think because you CAN do something you should"

You are just unfortunate to be in "CAN DO" community.

Anonymous said...

As for no Active directory equivalent...

Fedora has FreeIPA, which includes Fedora Directory Server among other things.

http://directory.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Screenshots

It would be nice to find an excuse to try this LDAP server but there only two networked Linux machines in my house, not enough to warrant centralized management and policy control. :-(

Anonymous said...

As LH and others before them have noted, Linux is fucked because of its own limitations. The bums keep changing interfaces and ABI's. Nobody can hope to distribute a binary for its 927 variants, and all their versions. Nobody can write an install script, a help page or a configuration script. There appears to be little design
or testing or quality control. Things that worked in the
previous release keep breaking in the latest release. And, the software repository concept is completely retarded.


First of all there isn't a single commercial company targeting more than a few distributions.

It is a hit or miss game on any unsupported distributions.

Second, LSB is a solution to the problem and there are tools to help ISVs develop software to comply with the standard.

I think LSB is a better solution than targeting a few distributions and shunning all the rest. By developing an LSB compliant application, you're ensuring that the software will be binary compatible with any LSB compliant distribution.

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