Friday, August 29, 2008

My perl caught a bug

There were a lot of things that I could have written about this week. Like, for example, Red Hat getting p0wned. Or how freetards in Quebec want their goverment to be even more inefficient. (Does this mean now they have to come to the US to buy their copy of Windows, along with their MRI's?)


No, the fruit ripest for the picking this week is Red Hat's perl performance bug.* Long story short, it turns out that the version of Perl that RH shipped has a huge performance bug that a whole bunch of people have just been working around. There's also apparently a bug report open about this that's been around for the better part of a year. Nicolas Clark, a core perl developer, also chimes in on how Red Hat fucked up.

The bug itself is not that interesting. It's just a performance bug. Whatever, it happens. But it's everything around it that has the ever so recognizable luser stench.

First there's the bug report it self. Go ahead, read through the comments. It's full of a bunch of whiners being actively hostile in an attempt to get RH to fix the bug. Way to set an example guys. To all the companies who have yet to go deploy a public-facing bugzilla, you're effectively saying, "do this, and we will shit all over you whenever you have a bad bug." It's a really great way to show that open bug DB's can be good for companies. **

Second, it's yet another example of where access to the source code causes stupid things to happen. RH released a version of the source code that upstream never released. I guess they have the freedom to do so, in this case, this freedom wasted a bunch of time for a bunch of people.

Third, is something that the upstream developer notes this himself:

RedHat seem to have an aggressive policy of incorporating pre-release changes in their released production code. This would not be so bad if they actually communicated back with upstream (i.e. me and the other people on the perl5-porters mailing list), or demonstrated that they had sufficient in-house knowledge that they didn't need to. But evidence suggests that neither is true, certainly for
5.8.x

Just because you have the source code, doesn't mean you have the expertise to maintain it, modify it, and release it. This is one of the biggest fallacies of the open source model. Lusers always like to say that as long as they have the code, they can make it work and fix things themselves. Never do they say that as long as they have the code, they have way more opportunities to fuck things up, because they often have no idea how or why the code was written as it was. This is just another example of this. *cough* Debian *cough* SSL *cough*

* Bad week for them, I suppose.
** Not that people don't do this already on various forums and bulletin boards. But when the nastiness appears on the same company-hosted page that everyone else is going to be looking at to find a solution, it looks especially bad.

180 flames:

Foosh said...

Fist!

No seriously; it just goes to show you the typical response of the Freetard community.

Imagine this happened with a Microsoft library or software package; people would be hurling shit like autistic monkeys for years!

All of this garbage all adds up to one thing; Making LINUX look BAD.

2008 year of the Linux Desktop; riight, call me when real companies who make real money give a shit!

Anonymous said...

The source code help otherwise zero bugs in 3rd party packages would ever be fixed by package maintainers of that distribution.

Not everyone is able to decipher source code but the ones who can have the opportunity to fix issues and develop apply patches; whereas in the close source model they don't.

Anonymous said...

Does this bug exist in Fedora or just RHEL?

If it doesn't exist in F9 then couldn't they just utilize the Fedora package?

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately, RH doesn't even want to fix the problem in RHEL 5.2 but only in the 5.3 release!

What Open Source IMHO needs is public and open source quality assurance. I.e. open test cases/test suites for all packages of a distribution. The tests should cover functionality, performance and ABI conformance. There should be public databases of the test result history for each major platform/cpu type.

Also there should be quality assurance for the documentation (Is there documentation at all? Does it cover all functions of the software? Is it uptodate? Is it available in all supported formats? etc.)

Checking a new distribution release with these tests for regressions should be mandatory before release.

Nowadays Open Source is ridiculously buggy and it's getting worse. I don't have much hope at this point if QA won't be become a top priority of all players.

Haiku_dude said...

Red Hat has a bug, customers complain and demand it fixed.

How dare they make mistakes. Obviously they suck, and therefor linux sucks,

Long live BeOs! oh... right :(. Long live AmigaOs!! oh man... :'( .

Why do the shitty Os's survive, what could they be doing right, fuck.

Roman Werpachowski said...

Having a common test suite would lead us down the path of unification of distributions. Which would be a good thing, but will never happen due to the reasons outlined many times on this blog.

Anonymous said...


Red Hat has a bug, customers complain and demand it fixed.

How dare they make mistakes. Obviously they suck, and therefor linux sucks,


Did you forget to get aboard the CLUE TRAIN?

Anonymous said...

Wait a minute, according to Nicolas Clark:

The problem was caused by changes I made in the 5.8.x tree that RedHat integrated.

So Red Hat made a mistake in integrating Nicolas' bug.

jam said...

Sorry, where are the bad comments from the freetards in that bug report?

Are you claiming that those comments are offensive?

Man, this blog is going down hill, fast.

How about commenting on all the bugs that haven't been fixed in GNOME for 5 years? Yeah, they add up.

Anonymous said...

@jam

HE is not going to respond to you. Not because you are a freetard, but because you are an incompetent fool.

Buy yourself a life; stop downloading it.

Anonymous said...

Doesn't Red Hat distribute source RPMs? Can't these lusers just fix it themselves?

Anonymous said...

Agreed, I didn't find the comments all that offensive.

You can harsher comments on find this anywhere.

BTW, Users of RHEL aren't freetards. These corporate users pay the licensing fee and Perl is a pretty important component. They expect quality assurance and RedHat isn't doing all they can in this particular scenario.

Fedora's Perl had the same exact bug and was fixed long ago; the patch is right here and been there for 14 months:

http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/rpms/perl/F-7/perl-5.8.8-U28775.patch?view=markup&revision=1.1

Igor said...

pure gold dude! very good post, and distros still doing the same thing: NetworKManager(SVN version!!!) *is* included in openSuSE 11(released version!!!)

Anonymous said...

This following forum thread is from 2002:
http://www.macobserver.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8361&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=02f1d6c9333329fd5c4cc633c5109966

[qoute]
To quota a few of my friends on their views of LINUX...

(and I know I posted one of these in a different thread somewhere)

[[[There's a lot more to a desktop platform than just the OS; it's the entire infrastructure that matters. A solid desktop OS needs all manner of support from font foundries, file conversion utilities, installers and a general ability to open and work with documents across all other platforms in friendly fashion.

In general, my personal experience has been fairly grim when it comes to these issues. OS X provides an answer to all this that is so strong that the question of desktop LINUX has gone from "How?" to "Why?" Those who like X86 boxes will slide glacier-like to Windows while the independent folks will tend to Macintosh, OS X and a mainstream Unix with a robust interface and mature applications.]]] - Del Miller, Aerospace Engineer

[[[Linux, and Unix interfaces in general are designed by committee. Large groups of people hashing, arguing, testing ideas, until they get the one that they can all agree on.

Examples of this are: KDE CDE OpenWindows WorkPlace Shell Gnome Windows...

All of them horrid.

To design a good interface, you need talent, but you also need vision. Committees never have vision. They have meetings. ]]] - John C. Welch


[[[There's sort of a fallacy with LINUX. LINUX never has been, and never will be a viable consumer desktop. To be such, it would have to be designed for the consumer.

LINUX is what it has always been -- a reasonable implementation of a UNIX based operating system, that is not bad as a low-end server (that has grown into the mid-end -- and may someday grow higher). It is not a bad foundation to build a turnkey system for some enterprises to use (as turnkey solutions go. IBM?). But that is not the same as "consumer desktop".

The ultimate operating system is not a command line with a thin graphics shell on top. So, LINUX has never really been anything close to a desktop solution (let alone a consumer desktop solution) by anyone but the completely self-deluded. ]]] - David K. Every

[[[OSX is already the unit leader in terms of a UNIX distribution, BUT... Other people that rely on UNIX (corporate entities et. al.) are learning that IT IS ALREADY THE INTERFACE LEADER as well. And this is 12 months out of the gate. Jaguar looks to fix/improve many things... And in another 12-18 months, I think it will be the standard by which most UNIXXES are measured... OSX delivers today on what LINUX has been promising for 10 years... ]]] - Dave K. Every

So, the larger picture shows that people simply don't trust Linux as a viable solution. Sure, People will always mess around with it and there will always be open-source development and such, but in the end, I'm not convinced that these people and organizations are going to trust it enough to switch their entire computer base over to it. Simply put, it isn't what Linux was intended for and there are just too many additional hurdles to clear before any of this can even begin to to sound viable.
[/qoute]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Anonymous said...

This blog tends to focus on Linux and FOSS infrastructure problems, most of which are being worked on--minus stable kernel interfaces.

For example:

*Audio mess - Pulseaudio

*X11 mess - DRI2, IGLX fixes, and Xrandr/Xinput hotplugging

*Fragmentation - LSB distribution certification

*Commercial development - LSB application certification

*Dependency hell - Unified repositories, such as RPMFusion

*Security - AppArmor, SELinux, Exec-Shield, ASLR, GCC BO checking, ELF DH, etc.

No... the problem that really matters and cannot be solved so easily is commercial software.

Linux simply doesn't have the commercial software Windows users want; this is essentially a killer blow because Windows is where 90% all the fruit is at.

Anonymous said...

That's an interesting proposition..
Comparing stuff that is work-in-progress for the last 5 years, vs existing solutions.. yeah yeah.

Linux is a masturbatory aid for second rated geeks - those who believe that they are clever, buy unfortunately, not clever enough to have any impact on the real-world, so they satisfy themselves by writing inferior copies of existing software, while congratulating themselves about the "revolution" they lead.

Linux is a losing OS for losers, by loser.

Anonymous said...

How is this a "luser" phenomenon? I seem to remember a few people getting pretty ugly when Vista was released and, for example, copy over network became 300Xs slower, or pre PS1 5 minute boot times for Home Basic laptops.

I think this is a people phenomenon, lol.

Anonymous said...

Confirmation bias, yes.
I agree with your analysis, with an exception:
Linux proved itself to be inferior. It's simply a bad product.

Sticking with it may be understandable from psychological point of view, but when using objective criteria, Linux is so far behind the competition that any comparison seems as a parody.

Anonymous said...

"Linux is a masturbatory aid for second rated geeks"

"Second rated geeks"?

Google attracts the best programmers and engineers in the world -- to work with Linux.

Or do you really believe that the "first rated geeks" are working for your company? :-D


"Linux proved itself to be inferior. It's simply a bad product."

"Bad product"?

Linux may be in less than 2% of the desktops, but is the standard choice for the top supercomputers of the world (www.top500.org).

---

This blog used to be fun and informative, because it was (mostly) accurate; not anymore. It is getting worse and worse.

Anonymous said...

*Audio mess - Pulseaudio Pulseaudio arguably makes the problem worse. The biggest problem with Linux audio is beyond the kludge that is the dozen or so competing, and overlapping soundservers, it's the mess that is ALSA replacing the established Unix standardard, OSS. And even beyond that, Pulseaudio doesn't fix the fact that the kernel's audio subsystem and API is everchanging and evermutating.

PA, from my understanding, essentially abstracts the underlying sound systems, it's subject to noth only the everchanging, evermutating nature of the lower-level soundsystems it seeks to abstract, but also the ever-changing underlying kernel API. It does absolutely nothing to address either problem.

Stablize the kernel API and settle on a single sound archetecture, preferably one that is already an established standard (ie. OSS, which as of the newer releases removes the raison d'etre of ALSA), and ease the burden for devs. Not only do they get a stable sound API/ABI to work with, they also get to target a standard interface which works across all Unices.

*X11 mess - DRI2, IGLX fixes, and Xrandr/Xinput hotplugging

XII itself isn't nearly the mess it is made up to be. It's just the implimentations availible on Linux are piss pour (in contrast to, the X11 implimentations in say, IRIX, which was never the mess it is on Linux.

The whole fuss over the network stack is bunk. They've taken a big step in modularizing X11, now they just need to make it so that the core is as small as possible, and that the legacy stuff is optional, the network stuff is optional, the tablet support is optional, the driver packs are individual drivers instead of classes of drivers. A stripped down X11 would yeild a significant performance boost.



Fragmentation - LSB distribution certification

LSB is useless if nobody embraces it.

*Commercial development - LSB application certification

Stable API/ABI in kernel goes a long, long way into making the platform more attractive to commercial development, as does the prospect of LSB taking off. There also needs to be a comprimise made, you want 3rd party development and drivers, accept that companies will do so on their own terms, not yours. The community needs to learn to STFU about binary blobs, and needs to STFU about access to source. Take what you can get, and work from there. Nobody wants another Corel incident, where they go through the effort of making both their top tier office suite (WordPerfect) and graphics suite (Corel DRAW/PhotoPaint/PowerTrace, which even at v.9.0 was years ahead of anything currently availible on the platform) when no analog existed, yet be shunned, ignored and even boycotted due to unavailibility of source. Fuck that. Nobody wants that kind of headache, especially when the graphics suite was being given away for free.

Dependency hell - Unified repositories, such as RPMFusion

Agreed, I can't count how many times I've had even DPKG-based systems hose themselves with circular dependancies, come update time.

Security - AppArmor, SELinux, Exec-Shield, ASLR, GCC BO checking, ELF DH, etc.

The solution is the probl.blem. There's no standard secutity API/system. Agree on one, focus on making that work. Quantity < quality.

No... the problem that really matters and cannot be solved so easily is commercial software.

Provide a stable API to work with, provide a standardized, uniform system to build against, drop the holier than thou bullshit, and wait. It's rather easily fixed, it just takes time.

thecodewitch said...

It was great reading that post by the open source programmer nicholas, and it reminds me about what is good about open source and linux, and what initially attracted me to it.

Many open source devs contribute meaningful, well documented changes. If you need to contact them, these devs are often approachable, and this encourages you to even contribute something yourself.

Linux is a collection of free stuff you can tinker with, and an online community you can talk nerd with about the stuff you are tinkering with.

When it tries to appeal to a broader audience, all the weaknesses and worst aspects of the community are revealed. A couple of open source devs get ego growth hormone injected into directly into their eyeballs from the crowds of raving zealots, causing otherwise quiet nerds to start posing in costumes and writing about guns and how "you can't own property, man".

Linux becomes a cult, and starts attracting people who start cultivating the fantasy that this guild of tinkerers is going to take over the world. It didn't work for the freemasons, and its not going to happen for linux.

Anonymous said...

*Audio mess - Pulseaudio Pulseaudio arguably makes the problem worse. The biggest problem with Linux audio is beyond the kludge that is the dozen or so competing, and overlapping soundservers, it's the mess that is ALSA replacing the established Unix standardard, OSS. And even beyond that, Pulseaudio doesn't fix the fact that the kernel's audio subsystem and API is everchanging and evermutating.

Most multimedia FOSS supports the various sound servers and APIs. While this in itself isn't ideal, it does mean that people can choose Alsa or PulseAudio for Linux and not worry about OSS, ESD, JACK, etc.

PulseAudio attempts to wrap around the various sound APIs but is in itself a superior cross-platform solution.

The ideal thing would be for all Unix and Unix-like systems to adopt PulseAudio and discontinue development of competing APIs.

XII itself isn't nearly the mess it is made up to be. It's just the implimentations availible on Linux are piss pour (in contrast to, the X11 implimentations in say, IRIX, which was never the mess it is on Linux.

The whole fuss over the network stack is bunk. They've taken a big step in modularizing X11, now they just need to make it so that the core is as small as possible, and that the legacy stuff is optional, the network stuff is optional, the tablet support is optional, the driver packs are individual drivers instead of classes of drivers. A stripped down X11 would yeild a significant performance boost.


My Fedora installation has an extremely lean X11 installation. I've uninstalled hundreds of MB worth of driver packages.

The problem with X11 isn't modularity--I find that its much better now. Rather, nasty bugs surrounding indirect rendering and the inability to hot plug display and other input devices and have them automatically detected and configured are the problems.

Fedora 9 includes bleeding-edge versions of X-server that provide these things in late development.

The disadvantage is proprietary video drivers wont work because they only target the initial Xorg release.

LSB is useless if nobody embraces it.

There is a list of distributions that have embraced the LSB specification and received certification.

https://www.linuxfoundation.org/lsb-cert/productdir.php?by_lsb

The problem is that there has been very little adoption by commercial developers.

The only LSB-compliant application I know of is RealPlayer 11 for Linux.

Stable API/ABI in kernel goes a long, long way into making the platform more attractive to commercial development, as does the prospect of LSB taking off. There also needs to be a comprimise made, you want 3rd party development and drivers, accept that companies will do so on their own terms, not yours. The community needs to learn to STFU about binary blobs, and needs to STFU about access to source. Take what you can get, and work from there. Nobody wants another Corel incident, where they go through the effort of making both their top tier office suite (WordPerfect) and graphics suite (Corel DRAW/PhotoPaint/PowerTrace, which even at v.9.0 was years ahead of anything currently availible on the platform) when no analog existed, yet be shunned, ignored and even boycotted due to unavailibility of source. Fuck that. Nobody wants that kind of headache, especially when the graphics suite was being given away for free.

A stable kernel ABI would help driver development and any applications that require a kernel module (VMWare or VirtualBox for instance). Beyond driver development LSB strives to solve the binary incompatibility problems between various distributions.

The Linux kernel will never have stable driver interfaces. Either the OpenSolaris kernel will need to improve and rival Linux in the driver support compartment to become a viable replacement kernel; or we'll simply deal with the fact that Linux was designed as an open source kernel with open source drivers and catering to proprietary driver developers was never a goal.

Nevertheless, ATI and Nvidia put forth merely a tiny fraction of their development power into their Linux drivers, yet still manage to produce workable ones that are steadily improving in quality-- despite targeting an unstable ABI.

Imagine how great all proprietary drivers would be had Linux received equal attention and support by developers as Windows.

The solution is the problblem. There's no standard secutity API/system. Agree on one, focus on making that work. Quantity < quality.

There doesn't need to be a standard because there really isn't much competition here. Exec-Shield and other security tools are complementary to mandatory access control systems like SELinux and AppArmor.

Provide a stable API to work with, provide a standardized, uniform system to build against, drop the holier than thou bullshit, and wait. It's rather easily fixed, it just takes time.

Most APIs are fairly stable. The kernel ABIs just aren't and they only matter for kernel-driver development. For instance, you can develop a GTK+ 2 application and expect it to work on future versions of the 2.x series of the library. At least that has been my experience with developing on GTK.

Even without the onset of LSB commercial software developers typically only target a couple distributions that they'll officially support.

LSB has the potential of enabling commercial developers the opportunity to target a far broader range of distributions without the headaches of doing so today.

Anonymous said...

According to Ohloh, 50,419 lines of open source code were written and committed today.

AND EVERY SINGLE LINE SUCKED!!!

WINDOWS FOR LYFE HOORAY FOR PROPERITARY SOFTWARE DIE DIE LINSUX

Anonymous said...


Google attracts the best programmers and engineers in the world -- to work with Linux.

And Microsoft attracts them to work on NT , Apple does on OSX, etc. Who cares?

You're quoting as if this is the norm, or that every Google employee is some sort of programmer god.


Linux may be in less than 2% of the desktops, but is the standard choice for the top supercomputers of the world (www.top500.org).

hahaha. If you think they're running the same kernel that you are. You are horribly wrong kid. They are hacked to run on very specialized hardware. The hardware is the key here, not the kernel.

Making an analogy like that shows how desperate lusers are. Get a clue, moron.

.net jerkface said...


The kernel ABIs just aren't and they only matter for kernel-driver development.


A recent kernel update broke VMWare server, and it has happened before. It was related to a kernel module that VM loads but it shows you how little Linus cares about everything upstream.

http://servervirtualization.blogs.techtarget.com/2007/10/10/linux-kernel-2623-win-for-xen-and-kvm-and-a-loss-for-vmware/

Linux is often touted as the best choice for virtualization yet a kernel update may break the application. What would the tech blog world do if Microsoft broke VMWare through a Windows update?
If you want to virtualize on a free unix then use freeBSD. Linux is maintained by some nerds who could care less about what you plan on doing with the software. The business world needs to wake up to this reality.

.net jerkface said...


LSB has the potential of enabling commercial developers the opportunity to target a far broader range of distributions without the headaches of doing so today.


People have been talking about the potential for LSB for years. Blah blah blah, things will get better in the future, blah blah blah. Today is the future and dependency hell still exists. Applications are still broken through distro updates.

The LSB also doesn't change the fact that ISVs still have to test in distributions that they officially support. This isn't very appealing when Linux collectively has less than 1% of the desktop market.

Anonymous said...

A recent kernel update broke VMWare server, and it has happened before. It was related to a kernel module that VM loads but it shows you how little Linus cares about everything upstream.

http://servervirtualization.blogs.techtarget.com/2007/10/10/linux-kernel-2623-win-for-xen-and-kvm-and-a-loss-for-vmware/

Linux is often touted as the best choice for virtualization yet a kernel update may break the application. What would the tech blog world do if Microsoft broke VMWare through a Windows update?
If you want to virtualize on a free unix then use freeBSD. Linux is maintained by some nerds who could care less about what you plan on doing with the software. The business world needs to wake up to this reality.


You've mentioned this before.

Thats why I specifically mentioned that a stable ABI isn't something that wont be fixed.

Look--I don't disagree with you here. I only care about the GNU userland and not the Linux kernel. The kernel can be replaced by a BSD or OpenSolaris kernel for all I care. The only thing that matters is a stable HAL implementation and device drivers.

The Linux kernel doesn't have an elegant architecture but does have the most low-level features and best driver support of all other potential kernel replacement candidates, ATM.

Anyway, as it appears there is no VMWare, KVM, VirtualBox, or Xen software for FreeBSD. FreeBSD can be installed as a guest OS but not as a host.

FreeBSD really only has Qemu/Kqemu and Bochs. These CPU emulation and virtualization programs exist on Linux as well and aren't likely to break from a kernel update.

The Linux kernel is maintained by employees of RedHat, Novell, IBM, Trolltech, etc. There are some independent developers but by in large it is a corporate effort. So no... the kernel is not developed by "freetards" for the most part.

Anonymous said...

People have been talking about the potential for LSB for years. Blah blah blah, things will get better in the future, blah blah blah. Today is the future and dependency hell still exists. Applications are still broken through distro updates.

I've only witnessed dependency hell when mixing various 3rd party repositories with overlapping packages.

RHEL and Fedora distributions will no longer suffer from this with the onset of RPMFusion, which unites 3 popular 3rd party repositories into one collaborating entity.

The LSB also doesn't change the fact that ISVs still have to test in distributions that they officially support. This isn't very appealing when Linux collectively has less than 1% of the desktop market.

If an ISV develops an application that passes all the LSB compliance tests and adheres to the LSB SDK then the compiled binary should execute with no issues on certified distributions.

While having a VM of all supported OSes would be ideal, I don't see how it would be required when LSB takes care of the integration issues.

The ISV would focus on supporting users of the application itself and not compatibility issues with their distribution.

Anyway the Linux Developer Network site is probably the best resource for ISVs interesting in commercial development.

http://ldn.linuxfoundation.org/lsb

.net jerkface said...


The Linux kernel is maintained by employees of RedHat, Novell, IBM, Trolltech, etc. There are some independent developers but by in large it is a corporate effort. So no... the kernel is not developed by "freetards" for the most part.

You make it sound as if it Linux is a joint corporate project. It isn't, those companies just fund full time kernel contributers since it is in their best interest to do so. Linus is still at the top and either doesn't test kernel changes against common applications or does which means that he wanted to break VMware.

.net jerkface said...

I've only witnessed dependency hell when mixing various 3rd party repositories with overlapping packages.

RHEL and Fedora distributions will no longer suffer from this with the onset of RPMFusion, which unites 3 popular 3rd party repositories into one collaborating entity.


Most ISVs don't want to mess with depositories in the first place; they want to keep the latest version of their software on their website so it can purchased or downloaded directly. Of course doing this in Linuxland is a huge PITA. Depositories only work (mostly) if your software is open source.

While having a VM of all supported OSes would be ideal, I don't see how it would be required when LSB takes care of the integration issues.


Because releasing commercial software in Linux will inevitably result in the following::

"I'm using distribution x and y doesn't work"

You can't simply tell one of your customers that it should work since you follow the LSB. You will have to try to recreate the bug/error/problem with the distribution specified.

Linux is a nightmare for ISVs and that won't be changing anytime soon because Linus could care less about commercial software companies.
Linux as a desktop OS has been a complete failure. To believe otherwise would require using a non-standard definition of the word failure.

Perhaps pc-bsd 7 will gain some ground since it has what Linux should: stable abi/api, open to proprietary drivers, clean audio stack, and no dependency hell thanks to the pbi system. Oh and no gnome vs kde crap. They picked kde. Deal with it.

Either way I don't care since I am fine with vista. 100 bucks for an OS is no big deal to me.

Anonymous said...

you're right ...

That is so much better with closed source code when
- you don't know there is a bug
- or when you lose your time telling helpdesk there is a problem and they have NO solutions .. but anyway you like paying for support just to lose your time on the phone .. Paying for support is so muche more secure
- you think that performance issue is just a hardware problem and buy more hardware ... "it's not a bug it's a feature ... " ... the hardware is so bad it can run my software let's buy more
- maybe the bug that doesn't exist will be corrected in next version (5 year from now) they should know it cause they know what is in their closed source code isn't it ?

Anonymous said...

Why do lusers complain about bugs at all? Don't they have the source? Can't they fix it? What's the point of a bug report when you can just fix it yourself?

Riccardo said...

You're getting fat...
You're getting out of rants...

So, this is another shit-post...

Moving along...

PS: Remember the X Windows post? More of that please.

Anonymous said...

previously every time someone mentioned enterprise linux some winnie weiner screamed that this blog is all about desktop linux. now the blog is so desperate it has to trawl enterprise bugtrackers and make misleading assertions about the comments therein. you winnie weiners are lamers thru and thru.

Anonymous said...

Most ISVs don't want to mess with depositories in the first place; they want to keep the latest version of their software on their website so it can purchased or downloaded directly. Of course doing this in Linuxland is a huge PITA. Depositories only work (mostly) if your software is open source.

This is typically true but not because there is a technical limitation--there isn't.

ISVs sometimes have their own repositories.

For instance, Adobe and Google host a YUM repository for centralized updates for all their cross-platform applications.

Because releasing commercial software in Linux will inevitably result in the following:

"I'm using distribution x and y doesn't work"

You can't simply tell one of your customers that it should work since you follow the LSB. You will have to try to recreate the bug/error/problem with the distribution specified.


The thing to do would be to try to reproduce the problem on whichever Linux guest is installed already.

Binaries without dependencies on kernel modules are virtually guaranteed to work under LSB support context.

You are thinking of a scenerio where the user attempts to run an LSB-compliant application on a non-compliant distribution. This will work in most cases if the proper glibc version, LSB-release, and other libraries are installed.

However... having LSB libraries doesn't mean the distribution passes all LSB compatibility tests or even most. There are a series of steps required to pass.

Linux is a nightmare for ISVs and that won't be changing anytime soon because Linus could care less about commercial software companies.
Linux as a desktop OS has been a complete failure. To believe otherwise would require using a non-standard definition of the word failure.


Linus? Unless there is a kernel module involved I simply don't see the relationship between the kernel and a user-mode application.

Linux is hardly a nightmare for ISVs because history has shown that very few ISVs support more than a few distributions; some ISVs even only support one or two distributions.

Users of all the other unsupported distributions aren't generally barred (with the right library version packages installed) but any issues that might occur for these users would have to be dealt with in public forums.

Nevertheless ISVs can target an LSB release yet only officially support a couple distributions. This will inadvertently enable the application to work on a broader distribution spectrum with few/no headaches, yet the ISVs will only be obligated to accommodate (provide commercial support) to users of the supported OSes.

Perhaps pc-bsd 7 will gain some ground since it has what Linux should: stable abi/api, open to proprietary drivers, clean audio stack, and no dependency hell thanks to the pbi system. Oh and no gnome vs kde crap. They picked kde. Deal with it.

The PBI system doesn't have library dependency checking when packages are mixed with those of FreeBSD's ports system. DesktopBSD's method of using a GUI front-end for the ports systems is far more clean.

FreeBSD and therefore PC-BSD suffer from the collage of various sound servers just like Linux. FreeBSD supports Jack, rTs, OSS, PulseAudio, etc.

The only thing FreeBSD really has going for it is a stable kernel interface APIs. While a stable ABI/API may be a big advantage I find better hardware support and low-level features, such as KVM virtualization and the new wireless networking stack enough to offset this glaring issue--as a user anyway.

shevegen said...

test

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLn_aNRdvUY

Anonymous said...

Re FOSS: since when is it a bonus to "be able to modify other people's code" ?

Is there a single professional programmer out there that enjoys reading through other people's code ? Modifying what other programmers did is the primary source of creating bugs, not the primary solution to fix them.

Tron said...


that is so much better with closed source code when
- you don't know there is a bug

Ohhh are you going to tell users to look at the code to see if there is a bug? I think I hear a fuck off in the distance.



- or when you lose your time telling helpdesk there is a problem and they have NO solutions .. but anyway you like paying for support just to lose your time on the phone .. Paying for support is so muche more secure

That made no sense to anyone but you. And perhaps the deluded FOSS community.


- you think that performance issue is just a hardware problem and buy more hardware ... "it's not a bug it's a feature ... " ... the hardware is so bad it can run my software let's buy more

More ranting and raving ...


- maybe the bug that doesn't exist will be corrected in next version (5 year from now) they should know it cause they know what is in their closed source code isn't it ?

WTF? What crap. Take any OSS project in sourceforge or anywhere else. Half of them don't even bother fixing anything. The OSS way to program = do what you want, screw the user. Just like how Linux kernel changes break tons of stuff downstream.


Except they _have_ to upgrade the kernel because some other component has fixed an important bug but that needs the new kernel. This type of stuff gives corporate people heart attacks. No wonder they keep away.

.net jerkface said...

This is typically true but not because there is a technical limitation--there isn't.

ISVs sometimes have their own repositories.


When did I say there was a technical limitation? I said it was a huge PITA, or pain in the ass if you don't know what that means.

Can you really not see how unappealing Linux is to an ISV? Is it too hard to admit that there may be a major flaw with Linux?


The PBI system doesn't have library dependency checking when packages are mixed with those of FreeBSD's ports system. DesktopBSD's method of using a GUI front-end for the ports systems is far more clean.


Half the point of the PBI is to MOVE AWAY FROM THE PORT SYSTEM AND AWAY FROM SHARED DEPENDENCIES. But then you probably don't have any problem with shared dependenices, and think it is ok to expect ISVs to bend over backwards for a goofy system that was designed decades ago when hard drive space was a premium. Now that half a terrabyte is a hundred bucks it seems incredibly silly that 5mb applicaions break over library updates.


FreeBSD and therefore PC-BSD suffer from the collage of various sound servers just like Linux. FreeBSD supports Jack, rTs, OSS, PulseAudio, etc.


The problem with distributions like ubuntu is that they allow too many sound servers. Freebsd supports fewer which is in itself cleaner. But I don't want to get into a discussion over sound in Unix, since in a greater context it is rather pathetic given that sound worked better in Windows ME than the latest Ubuntu release.

You also seem to assume that I want to engage in a freebsd vs linux debate, which I do not, I just find freebsd/pc-bsd interesting since they have many advantages over Linux yet do not have the same level of corporate investment. It is a sad testament to Linux in fact that a freebsd vs linux debate can even exist given that over a billion has been invested into Linux while Freebsd is maintained by volunteers and has an annual budget of less than 200 thousand dollars.
http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/documents/Budget2007.pdf

The Linux desktop is the biggest failure in the history of computing. Linux is free, has corporate support and can be downloaded by anyone yet can't even gain the market share of an OS that is almost 10 years old and can no longer be purchased.
At some point the slashdot circle-jerk club is going to have to accept that the Linux revolution is not going to happen. Their open source ideology has failed because at the end of the day the proprietary model makes better business sense and has out-produced the oss world.
Your revolution is dying, don't be the last person jerking it to penguin takeover fantasies.

Anonymous said...

@.net jerkface: "The Linux desktop is the biggest failure in the history of computing. Linux is free, has corporate support and can be downloaded by anyone yet can't even gain the market share of an OS that is almost 10 years old and can no longer be purchased.
At some point the slashdot circle-jerk club is going to have to accept that the Linux revolution is not going to happen. Their open source ideology has failed because at the end of the day the proprietary model makes better business sense and has out-produced the oss world.
Your revolution is dying, don't be the last person jerking it to penguin takeover fantasies."


It's really quite simple. At the end of the day, people like to get PAID. The ecosystem is designed to make money from people who actually spend money, not the dirty cheapskate FOSS hippies, who merely want to make inferior copies of everything, declare them superior, and cover their eyes when people figure out that they're full of shit. You can't run from fundamental economics. It's why FOSS just doesn't work as a broad-based concern.

Nick Chan Abdullah said...

linux is 'ok' for general home use, I guess

i stick to windows, even on my ibook. but i must admit the existence of linux has somehow improved Windows :-)

so, long live competition !

Anonymous said...

While I initially liked the PC-BSD's PBI system, I have come to learn it's only a dirty hack on top of FreeBSD.

Nothing revolutionary here as long as there's still cruft and obsolete code inside.

Shared dependencies are at the core of the Linux-on-the-desktop dispute. Solving this problem would, in turn, solve other problems, like the availability of commercial software and drivers for Linux and would put an end to many, many useless distributions because no shared dependencies = lack of centralized control over the software management.

The two most common issues with shared dependencies are:

1) possible lack of security; imagine a new vulnerability is found in libwhatever v0.8.6. A monolithic application that ships with libwhatever v0.8.6 is at risk and has to upgrade libwhatever to the latest version. The freetards like to claim that repositories are the way to go in this case, because any app depending on libwhatever will benefit when the library is updated.

Allow me to retort: since a distribution is only (re)packaging software, how the fuck can you be faster than upstream?

In Windows, uTorrent notifies me when a new version is ready and offers to download it for me. Same with Firefox and a fuckload of other programs. I am notified the moment upstream releases a newer version. How can the repository system beat this? Not to mention using repositories is like being caged. In Windows I am free to go to whatever developer's site and download and try his/her shareware. I have a guarantee it will work.

In Linux, when I go to the official site of the -insert app name here- project, all I'm getting is instructions on how to compile the source and/or install the application from within one's current distro. This is already assuming that the repo has the app and/or that the user has knowledge of compiling and shit.

In Windows, I go to Ghisler.com and download Total Commander and it JUST FUCKING WORKS™ since like Windows 95, bitches!

2) shared libraries have the advantage of occupying less HDD space and RAM.

Fuck you nigger! Fuck you and your motherfucking 80MB HDD. And your 32 MB of RAM.

No, seriously, implementing such idea today, in Linux, would bring current commodity hardware to its knees, since there is a fuckload of libraries out there.

The problem will be tackling this issue and getting to work on OPTIMIZING things, reducing cruft, using less libraries and frameworks. Most of them are ancient, anyways.

As long as the "community" is not willing to change and work together in order to reach these goal(s), Linux ain't going nowhere.

Now who found out that anarchic communities can't work together as a whole? I don't know why, but it might be related to my post.

Fuck you, filthy penguin niggers.

(I'm not racist.)

Anonymous said...

//Fuck you, filthy penguin niggers.

(I'm not racist.)//

Ummm ... you sure?

Anonymous said...

Hey everyone. On Slashdot they've just realised that GNU celebrates 25 years and is throwing a party. GNU, via talking puppet Stephen Fry, says that everyone use gNewSense to avoid Apple's and Microsoft's tyranny.

As I've never heard of this distribution I go to their website, note the comments about user-friendliness and freeness (but mostly freeness) and click on "Find out more about gNewSense".

I am then greeted with a couple of introductory paragraphs and the following list:

# FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions [Starts okay]
# Summary of bug statistics for last 4 weeks [Starts going wrong here]
# Summary of package freedom statistics for last 4 weeks [Eh?]
# Builder - A section of the wiki devoted to the Build system deployed in gNewSense [WTF...]
# How To Help - How To Help the gNewSense project
# Current Projects - Projects related to gNewSense run by the community and their status.
# Broken 3d Apps - A partial list of things broken by removing GLX/Mesa [Who needs 3D?]
# Recommended Hardware - Hardware that works well with 100% Free Software
# Community Guidelines - Etiquette Guide for gNewSense Community

Etc etc... until it disappears up its own arse.

Yet Another attempt at getting Linux into the mainstream fails.

Anonymous said...


Yet Another attempt at getting Linux into the mainstream fails.


dont mind them co-existing, as long as they know their place. with the dog

Anonymous said...

Anyway, as it appears there is no VMWare, KVM, VirtualBox, or Xen software for FreeBSD. FreeBSD can be installed as a guest OS but not as a host.

Vmware has worked in FreeBSD for ages, via its binary compatability with Linux (kinda funny how FreeBSD maintains binary compatability with Linux, while Linux does not, isn't it?), with native performance.

Xen currently lives in 8.0 CURRENT (along with DTrace, woot woot), It's unsure if it'll be moved into a 7.x Release (it'll be ready when it's deemed to work well not only on its own, but with the rest of the system; this isn't Linux after all, stuff doesn't leave Current until it's production-ready). But it'll be in 8.0.

As far as I can tell, there's no official package for VirtualBox in Ports as of yet.

but does have the most low-level features and best driver support of all other potential kernel replacement candidates, ATM.

Quantity-wise, yes, Linux probably has the broadest hardware "support". Quality-wise, although FreeBSD has fewer supported devices, the drivers that do exist tend to be of much higher quality (and don't break between point-releases!). Trouble here is, FreeBSD doesn't have the corporate support Linux does (and lack the accompanying funneling of cash into it. IIRC the FreeBSD foundation works with an anual budget of something like $200,000.

But then you probably don't have any problem with shared dependenices, and think it is ok to expect ISVs to bend over backwards for a goofy system that was designed decades ago when hard drive space was a premium. Now that half a terrabyte is a hundred bucks it seems incredibly silly that 5mb applicaions break over library updates.

Shared libraries have their benefits, especially with heavily used libraries, there's no good reason for huge runtimes to be loaded multiple times, for each application linking against them, even with cheap ram.

Thing is, FreeBSD isn't Linux,m the system itself isn't the mess Linux is. It's the advantage of being developed in a cathederal like manner, rather than kludgework. The same libraries are on every system, and backward compatability is built in. You don't have applications randomly breaking on updates via ports/pkg_tools like you do on Linux. And I've yet to see a FreeBSD install shit itself to death with circular dependancies as is common on Ubuntu.

I like the idea of appdirs, they work well on my macs. But I also like the way FreeBSD handles the base system. I'm not sure how well a hybrid of the two would work, mind you.

I also hate static libraries sometimes, which is why I don't use any Mozilla products anymore. It's bad enough that Firefox eats up 300mb of memory, do I really need an email client and calendar eating up as much mememory on top of that, because they're loading up the same bloated, leaky, libgecko and libxul each for themselves?

Anonymous said...

A couple of open source devs get ego growth hormone injected into directly into their eyeballs from the crowds of raving zealots, causing otherwise quiet nerds to start posing in costumes and writing about guns and how "you can't own property, man".

I love the parts about how copyright isn't about the authors, how "selling software" should be refered to as “distributing copies of a program for a fee” or “imposing proprietary restrictions on the use of a program,” and the bits about GLAMP (get the fuck over it, already. Or finish HURD and stop whining) and "content", because the works themselves, as barely tangible concepts should have more rights than the people who created them, but you can't say "create", because it elevates the creator of the work to god-status.

WTF?

I want want Stallman is smoking...
Unless it's his beard... Or the fumes from his BO. I don't want either anywhere near me.

Anon E Moose said...

If there if one thing that gNewSense can demonstrate to us, it's the ultimate state that free software would be in if there was no closed/proprietary/costs-munny stuff.

I've never used it, mind: just read reviews of it and the philosophy behind it.

I decided I'd rather have an OS that will work for me, rather than me being its bitch (for no better reason than subscribing to some dogmatic techno-religion).

Anonymous said...

When did I say there was a technical limitation? I said it was a huge PITA, or pain in the ass if you don't know what that means.

Can you really not see how unappealing Linux is to an ISV? Is it too hard to admit that there may be a major flaw with Linux?


Creating a repository is a huge PITA? Eh?

I can see how Linux is unappealing to driver developers but not software developers.

LSB and Linux Application Checker are tools to help ISVs more than anyone else. FOSS doesn't need LSB because the software is recompiled to work on every distribution.

Half the point of the PBI is to MOVE AWAY FROM THE PORT SYSTEM AND AWAY FROM SHARED DEPENDENCIES. But then you probably don't have any problem with shared dependencies, and think it is ok to expect ISVs to bend over backwards for a goofy system that was designed decades ago when hard drive space was a premium. Now that half a terrabyte is a hundred bucks it seems incredibly silly that 5mb applicaions break over library updates.

No, its just an inefficient use of disk space to have multiple copies of the same libraries for every application that needs it.

The system of having multiple repositories for every distribution is inefficient enough in itself; wasting more space shouldn't be endorsed.

The problem with distributions like ubuntu is that they allow too many sound servers. Freebsd supports fewer which is in itself cleaner. But I don't want to get into a discussion over sound in Unix, since in a greater context it is rather pathetic given that sound worked better in Windows ME than the latest Ubuntu release.

Except for Alsa, FreeBSD supports them all. However, FreeBSD even supports Alsa via the Linux system call emulator.

As I've mentioned earlier virtually all FLOSS applications support Alsa and/or PulseAudio. The other sound systems are optional and can be configured at run time.

MPlayer is an example--you can choose the sound server and driver in the configuration settings.

You also seem to assume that I want to engage in a freebsd vs linux debate, which I do not, I just find freebsd/pc-bsd interesting since they have many advantages over Linux yet do not have the same level of corporate investment. It is a sad testament to Linux in fact that a freebsd vs linux debate can even exist given that over a billion has been invested into Linux while Freebsd is maintained by volunteers and has an annual budget of less than 200 thousand dollars.
http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/documents/Budget2007.pdf


Yes, billions of dollars invested into the Linux kernel. The kernel is only a part of the puzzle.

We've already established that the Linux kernel is a mess. Until a better designed kernel appears with superior hardware support and features, the Linux kernel will remain top dog.

The base GNU tool-chain and other applications can be found on most other Unix and Unix-like OSes. Any investments to these applications benefit all upstream users.

The Linux desktop is the biggest failure in the history of computing. Linux is free, has corporate support and can be downloaded by anyone yet can't even gain the market share of an OS that is almost 10 years old and can no longer be purchased.
At some point the slashdot circle-jerk club is going to have to accept that the Linux revolution is not going to happen. Their open source ideology has failed because at the end of the day the proprietary model makes better business sense and has out-produced the oss world.
Your revolution is dying, don't be the last person jerking it to penguin takeover fantasies.


Linux is a failure on the desktop for the same reason all other FOSS OSes are a failure--commercial software support.

Windows users want the applications they already possess; therefore a successful Linux migration can only occur in the event that all these applications were supported. Wine exists but its far from flawless.

Even if FOSS alternatives had all the features of their commercial counterparts (some do), it wouldn't change anything. Users demand the applications they've used before even if a FOSS alternative might be close--learning a new application is a no deal.

The double-edge sword here is ISVs refuse to support Linux until a formidable user base developes; however, this user base wont develop until ISVs port their software.

Andreas said...

Oh, that's great! I'm writing from Italy and I'm so happy to see that the King is naked.

After having tried dozens of Linux distros, I am glad to see that someone else has found that Linux SUCKS.

No toy for frustrated geek has ever gained so much undeserved popularity than Linux. The "OS of the future" is the "OS of the future" from 10 years, but nobody is still using it except some frustrated geek who has nothing else to do than spending his time reconfiguring a kernel in order to make a common printer work.

Anonymous said...

Linux is a failure on the desktop for the same reason all other FOSS OSes are a failure--commercial software support.

If it really worked that would not be an issue. The trouble is that the dang thing just doesn't work. That's why the Mac OS platform is popular and profitable: it provides a stable target for ISVs. Indeed, given the head start desktop Linux had over Mac OS X, the relative market shares (6% vs. 1%) is embarrassing.

RockMeLinuxDamus said...

In the category of unintended side effects of this blog comes:

BSD users crawling out from under rocks.

Anonymous said...

If it really worked that would not be an issue. The trouble is that the dang thing just doesn't work. That's why the Mac OS platform is popular and profitable: it provides a stable target for ISVs. Indeed, given the head start desktop Linux had over Mac OS X, the relative market shares (6% vs. 1%) is embarrassing.

Linux has been a stable target for software development, just not for drivers.

ISVs traditionally target only a couple specific distribution releases for their products.

Furthermore, these distributions are typically long-term supported; therefore the packages don't really change except for security and bugfix patches.

The LSB specification are all about diversifying OS support for ISVs.
While most commercial applications may work on other, unofficially supported distributions LSB guarantees it under the condition that both the application and distribution follow compliance guidelines.

Anyway, most other FOSS OSes, such as FreeBSD, OpenSolaris, Haiku, ReactOS have centralized development and a stablizing ABIs for driver development yet have even less desktop marketshare than Linux has: 0.0%.

Just look at FreeBSD's marketshare for crying out loud.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=9&qpcustom=FreeBSD

So no... what you say is wrong. OS X gathered support because it was the natural progression of MacOS, which first appeared in 1984.

Still, OS X's 8% marketshare is a joke compared to Windows's 90%.

.net jerkface said...


Creating a repository is a huge PITA? Eh?


In Visual Studio I can build an installer for an exe in about 5 minutes, and that installer will work on every xp and vista desktop out there. By comparison deploying software in Linux and dealing with repositories is a huge pita. If you want to bring ISVs to Linux you need to make deployment at least somewhat comparable.


No, its just an inefficient use of disk space to have multiple copies of the same libraries for every application that needs it.


I already went over this. We all know the benefits of shared libraries, but as I stated before they were designed when data storage was at a premium. A gig of ram can be had at newegg for 20 bucks. I don't think the benefit of storage efficiency outweighs the cost of dependency hell in today's environment.


As I've mentioned earlier virtually all FLOSS applications support Alsa and/or PulseAudio. The other sound systems are optional and can be configured at run time.


And once again Linux sounds so great on paper, yet has glaring problems like not being able to have multiple applications access the sound card. I don't use Linux anymore but I remember Freebsd being better at playing multiple sound sources, but perhaps it has improved. But then ubuntu 8.04 killed a bunch of working sound cards so it looks like Linux sound still isn't at the level of Windows ME.
http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2008/04/tech_note_ubuntu_linux_804_har.php


Linux is a failure on the desktop for the same reason all other FOSS OSes are a failure--commercial software support.


How did Linux become a success as a server os? I'll tell you how: it was useful and cost-effective compared to commercial Unix licensing fees.

Linux as a desktop os just isn't cost-effective enough to the average user. It is in no way worth the 100 bucks you will save by not buying vista. Most people don't have a problem spending $40 at Applebee's, so spending $100 on an OS that will last you for 5 years is actually a pretty good deal.

If Linux wants to get anywhere on the desktop it needs to you know what I don't even care anymore. The luser faction has proven me wrong over the years with Linux's massive gains on the desktop. I thought they were naive and foolish for ignoring the needs ISVs but I guess I was wrong. Microsoft is near bankruptcy and OS/X is going nowhere. The slashdotters truly are gods among men. Their endless forum proselytizing has actually paid off. All hail our linux overlords!

Anonymous said...


The double-edge sword here is ISVs refuse to support Linux until a formidable user base developes; however, this user base wont develop until ISVs port their software.


It could also be that there are many users who in fact have honestly given linux a try but dislike it. Small Businesses are always looking to cut costs. (I'm not talking about those developing software.) e.G. those that deploy a small domain of computers for basic needs - office productivity apps, email, browsing, etc.

I know of atleast 2 businesses who have infact evaluated ubuntu but didnt find it compelling enough to switch to. The main reason? - office apps not up to the mark. They didn't even evaluate the hardware part.

Yeah, anecdotes don't prove shit, but they usually give a clue.

How do you think Firefox made all those gains in market share? Remember this is against a browser that all users get bundled in, so people actually went through the trouble of downloading it. why? because it was compelling enough. Its not "apples to apples", but its yet another clue.

Tech-history is filled with examples of the little guy breaking into the market dominated by huge corporations, so linux is not the only one in this regard.

fill in the blanks now.

Anonymous said...

In Visual Studio I can build an installer for an exe in about 5 minutes, and that installer will work on every xp and vista desktop out there. By comparison deploying software in Linux and dealing with repositories is a huge pita. If you want to bring ISVs to Linux you need to make deployment at least somewhat comparable.

No its not.

Create an RPM and/or DEB package and distribute it.

Granted, writing an RPM spec file might take longer than 5 minutes but it can be reused for future releases.

I already went over this. We all know the benefits of shared libraries, but as I stated before they were designed when data storage was at a premium. A gig of ram can be had at newegg for 20 bucks. I don't think the benefit of storage efficiency outweighs the cost of dependency hell in today's environment.

As I've said before dependency hell has only affected me while mixing multiple repositories that host identical packages.

This sort of thing drove me nuts when I enabled Livna and FreshRPMs and noticed that FreshRPM's version of package appeared as an update for the Livna version installed.

Collaboration needs to occur between the repository maintainers and that is exactly what RPMFusion will do for RHEL and Fedora.

And once again Linux sounds so great on paper, yet has glaring problems like not being able to have multiple applications access the sound card. I don't use Linux anymore but I remember Freebsd being better at playing multiple sound sources, but perhaps it has improved. But then ubuntu 8.04 killed a bunch of working sound cards so it looks like Linux sound still isn't at the level of Windows ME.
http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2008/04/tech_note_ubuntu_linux_804_har.php


That blog post says nothing except that the PCM volume was muted by default.

PulseAudio is the sound server that will permit multiple sound sources and the ability to combine multiple sound cards into one.

PulseAudio

How did Linux become a success as a server os? I'll tell you how: it was useful and cost-effective compared to commercial Unix licensing fees.

Linux as a desktop os just isn't cost-effective enough to the average user. It is in no way worth the 100 bucks you will save by not buying vista. Most people don't have a problem spending $40 at Applebee's, so spending $100 on an OS that will last you for 5 years is actually a pretty good deal.


That still doesn't disprove my point.

If Linux and other FOSS OSes don't support all the commercial software Windows users want then it has little to no value for them, even at $0. People use applications not operating systems(tm).

If Linux wants to get anywhere on the desktop it needs to you know what I don't even care anymore. The luser faction has proven me wrong over the years with Linux's massive gains on the desktop. I thought they were naive and foolish for ignoring the needs ISVs but I guess I was wrong. Microsoft is near bankruptcy and OS/X is going nowhere. The slashdotters truly are gods among men. Their endless forum proselytizing has actually paid off. All hail our linux overlords!

What?

...And here I was trying to engage in an objective conversation.

Anonymous said...

No toy for frustrated geek has ever gained so much undeserved popularity than Linux. The "OS of the future" is the "OS of the future" from 10 years, but nobody is still using it except some frustrated geek who has nothing else to do than spending his time reconfiguring a kernel in order to make a common printer work.

It's no coincidence that Linux rose during a time that dotcoms and IPO fraud ruled supreme. They were all supposed to change the rules, overturn the established order, and usher in a new age of features and usability. Instead, we see that the dotcoms not tied to viable, old-guard business models (eg. advertising, goods & services) are dead and buried, FOSS has HUGE engineering challenges (KDE4, etc) that make it far less suitable for widespread use than commercial solutions, and the FOSS high priests continue to deliver empty promises that things will get better. They DON'T get better. We're no closer now to having a viable desktop form of Linux than we were 10 years ago. I mean, for chrissakes, you can't even GIVE the thing away to customers. Do you realize how EMBARRASSING that must be to the people who constantly make pronouncements of The Year of the Linux Desktop -- and then proceed to blame CUSTOMERS for failing to use their crap?!? What a bunch of fucking nutcases. Thank God I left that cult behind.

.net jerkface said...


Anyway, most other FOSS OSes, such as FreeBSD, OpenSolaris, Haiku, ReactOS have centralized development and a stablizing ABIs for driver development yet have even less desktop marketshare than Linux has: 0.0%.

Just look at FreeBSD's marketshare for crying out loud.


The people that work on FreeBSD aren't pushing it as a desktop. They are just trying to make a good, free Unix.

But anyways you can hardly make a comparision to those other operating systems when:

Linux has had over billion dumped into it by various corporations.

Numerous startups around the Linux desktop have been funded and failed, with linspire being the most recent.

Linux has a billionaire that continues to dump his own money into a leading desktop distribution.

Linux has an army of cheerleaders in the tech press.

Also Linux has more problems than an unstable abi and separate kernel/os development.
These two problems would be more tolerable if there weren't multiple distributions, dependency hell, two competing GUIs, a thousand inflated egos and an anti-proprietary ideology that is held with religious fervor.

Anonymous said...

Etc etc... until it disappears up its own arse.

Yet Another attempt at getting Linux into the mainstream fails.


Gnuisance isn't an attempt to bring Linux into the mainstream, its just pandering to the religious right. Like the Republicans and about as useful.

Anonymous said...

How amusing.
Google just killed Mozilla.

Again.

Free software - the useful idiots of the technology world

Anonymous said...

Interesting quotes from Walt Mossberg's column (http://ptech.allthingsd.com/20080902/first-test-of-googles-new-browser/):

"Despite Google’s claims that Chrome is fast, it was notably slower in my tests at the common task of launching Web pages than either Firefox or Safari. However, it proved faster than the latest version of IE — also a beta version — called IE8.

"Meanwhile, Microsoft hasn’t been sitting still. The second beta version of IE8 is the best edition of Internet Explorer in years. It is packed with new features of its own, some of which are similar to those in Chrome, and some of which, in my view, top Chrome’s features.

IE8 also has breakthrough privacy features that exceed Chrome’s, and includes a new technology called Accelerators, which allows you to take rapid action on any selected word or phrase on a Web page, such as generating a map for a place name, without switching to a new page.

As they develop, each of these browsers has a good chance of besting Firefox 3.0, which I have regarded as the best Web browser for Windows, the only operating system on which Chrome currently runs. But they will have to get faster at loading pages. And, to best Firefox on the Macintosh, Google will have to make good on its promise to produce a Mac version of Chrome, something it says it will do in the coming months. Microsoft has no plans to produce a Mac version of IE8.

Chrome and IE8 are far more advanced than Apple’s Safari. Safari is speedy on both Mac and Windows platforms, but lacks many of the key intelligent features of its newer Google and Microsoft rivals.


In other words, the next generation of browsers produced by commercial companies, Google and Microsoft, are poised to squash Firefix 3.0. Is anybody really surprised by this? When commercial companies start to pay attention to a particular market space, they will bring whatever resources are necessary to bear to WIN that market. And freetards just aren't going to be able to keep up.

.net jerkface said...


Create an RPM and/or DEB package and distribute it.

Granted, writing an RPM spec file might take longer than 5 minutes but it can be reused for future releases.


There is no linux equivalent of Visual Studio's setup wizard, so yea it is going to take quite a bit longer. And to get most of the Linux market you have to build both a deb and an rpm, which means you have to test and support two different distributions.

However the fun isn't over, since it is Linux you have to watch the updates from both distributions to make sure your app doesn't break because you can't compile 100% statically with qt. But then even if you could your app could still break because after all it is Linux and if your app isn't open source there is always the risk of random breakage.

So yes compared to a simple wizard in Visual Studio this is a huge pain in the ass, especially for the targeted market size.
I would rather just code for the iphone which now has about 1/3 of Linux's share. With the iphone you would probably also have much better sales given that most Linux users are cheap and expect software to be free. You would also have fewer headaches since the iphone is a single platform and has a software deployment system that is designed for ISVs, whereas with Linux you have a bunch of hacks and plugins from various parties that you have to use because no one is trying to court your business.
The standard Linux method of trying to get an ISV to port to Linux is to email the company and badger them with questions like why they take money from Microsoft or why they hate freedom*.



* Freedom as in Stallman's carefully defined collectivist version of this word, not standard usage. See the People's Dictionary for more information.

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It could also be that there are many users who in fact have honestly given linux a try but dislike it.


I think another problem is that most programmers dislike it as well, but you would never get this impression from the various tech sites.

In one of my cs classes we were required to setup some red hat servers with various services and just about everyone hated doing it. There was also a clear hatred of programming in perl and most of the students viewed command line only programming as rather archaic. They were all highly competent students but viewed the whole linux thing as more of a history course and were eager to get back to Windows where they wouldn't have to mess with text files in 640x480 to get basic hardware working.

Of course according to the tech press and the slashdotters these students were supposed to have immediately fallen in love with Linux and then sworn themselves as supporters for the great cause. It didn't happen, and we used Linux about 12 hours a week for 3 months. One comment I heard at the end of the course was: "That's it? That's Linux? Wow, I really thought there would be more to it."

Anonymous said...

Anyway, most other FOSS OSes, such as FreeBSD, OpenSolaris, Haiku, ReactOS have centralized development and a stablizing ABIs for driver development yet have even less desktop marketshare than Linux has: 0.0%.

FreeBSD isn't designed nor pushed as a desktop OS. It's goals are to be a good, free BSD Unix primarily as a specialized high performance server, and secondly as a workstation. That's all.

OpenSolaris is intended to be the eventual Solaris 11. Don't kid yourself or be fooled by the numbers, Sun might be targeting a niche market, but it's their niche market. IBM's POWER/AIX packages is Sun's SPARC/solaris packages only realy competition on the ultra high end big iron. It's not intended to be a desktop OS (so desktop share is irrelevent). It's intended to absord Solaris' niche, which is an area Linux is just in absolutely no position to compete in.

Haiku is still a very new and very young project. It's barely even in alpha, nobody expects it (or should expect it) to have any significant marketshare. It seems to be a mostly "wouldn't it be cool if there was a modern BeOS? Yeah, BeOS was awesome" kind of project.

ReatOS too is barely even in alpha state, and shouldn't be expected to have any significant marketshare.

So essentially, what you're saying, is that Linux is sexy because it has a greater percentage in a given segment than a bunch of pre-alpha systems which shouldn't even have an actual userbase, and other systems which don't even target that market segment (and as such shouldn't be expected to hold any significant share of that market).

Way to stack the deck there, buddy.

Congradulations, Linux as a desktop OS is more popular as a desktop OS than systems that aren't desktop OSes as desktop OSes.

I suppose VMS and Plan9 fail too, because Linux has better numbers in a segment VMS and Plan9 don't even target, right?

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