Monday, August 25, 2008

National Convention of Anarchy

What else happens every four years other than the olympics? Why, the DNC!

OMGWTF! I can't view the videos using Linux! EPIC FAIL!

Slashtards. Seriously, how do you keep doing it? How do you stay so inspired? I find myself struggling to keep up.

First of all, they do support Windows and Mac. So, that's like 99% of all computers. Why don't we first worry about the people who don't have computers, instead of worrying about the 1% of computer users who just like being fucking annoying.

But that last 1%, don't we care about them too? or wait just a second, do the Democrats not care about lusers? Could it be? Such an intelligent, polite crowd? What if they are the swing vote? Doesn't their quest for freedom synergize with the Democratic message? Don't we want them on our side?

Even though their numbers are small, they're all on the internets! And like 23 hrs a day! They could all unite behind a common cause, organize, work together, and .... oh wait. Ha ha. I get it now. They can't even do that to produce a working operating system. What makes anyone think they can do it in real life?

Yes that's right folks. Lets not kid ourselves. Linux is not a democracy. Linux is anarchy. Everyone going in their own damn directions. It's not about working together. It's about works for me! It's not Yes We Can, it's Yes I Can.

So if you guys want to create all your own rules and abide by them on your silly internet chatrooms, be my guest. Just don't come bitching when you find out that the real world doesn't really care about you.

BTW guys. A few words of advice.

You can watch the damn thing on TV. You know that thing you could watch if only your video capture card was actually supported under Linux? I hear there are like a bajillion TV-compatible devices. Why don't you go enjoy your analog hole why you still can?

Also, if you're making your political decisions based on all the contrived, sugar-coated moments that they broadcast during the conventions, you're already lost. Go read a newspaper or something. I hear there's also this globally accessible network of computers that is actually a good place to read about what the candidates really stand for.

225 flames:

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thecodewitch said...

GOLD!!!!!!

So if you guys want to create all your own rules and abide by them on your silly internet chatrooms, be my guest. Just don't come bitching when you find out that the real world doesn't really care about you.

Oh don't you worry, they're going to bitch alright. The real world hasn't stopped these fundies from pushing their religion before, and it certainly isn't going to stop them now.

Here they come....

Anonymous said...

Wait... how can we blame Linux users for being shunned by a website that uses Silverlight and an additional proprietary media player?

1% is a very big number when they can scream louder than all others combined.

BTW, the whole thing is ironic. The Democrat party tends to demonstrate socialist/communist ideals with bigger government, higher taxes, socialized health care, etc.

If you want to compare communism or socialism with Linux and FOSS then shouldn't the left-wing liberals be butt fucking Tux right about now?

trickyDick said...

One thing common with democrats/liberals/commies is their despise for free markets, private property, private enterprises (all those evil corporations), freedom of contract etc. All you hear from them is microsoft this, microsoft that, monopolies everywhere, need to be broken up, calls for government regulation of internet explorer, bitch moan, complain. It is the actual reason i hate linux. linux has nothing to do with freedon. one business model can not be more free than the other.

Stilgar said...

1% is a very big number when they can scream louder than all others combined.

Yeah... on Slashdot...

Anonymous said...

Yeah... on Slashdot...

or the whole interwebs.

Ever notice how an OS with only 1% marketshare receives almost as much press coverage as Windows?

A good majority of this coverage relates to desktop Linux too.

Anonymous said...

So... first the Olympics and now this. I guess this is operating system oblivion, falling out of support.

Can't say I blame microsoft for the hostility though. Expecially since Vista was released. I mean whole linux communities (easily the largest FUD campaign in computing history) were set up to promulgate FUD about vista... And now microsoft wont support you anymore? Booo hooo, cry me a frigging river.

I have an idea!!! For the next big event, linux should send their techs over and have them do the website. Oh you can't because there is no such thing? Oh they wouldn't take you seriously because you don't have any financing?

Guess that settles it then. 2008 the year linux began its slide into oblivion.

Rennerik said...

Man this IE8 BS is the most fun:

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/08/26/0046203.shtml

Microsoft is doing something awesome here, and the first thing they do is complain about it ("they're trying to get rid of Google Analytics!" or "omigod, they're going to make it block only certain ads, and only allow MS-approved ads!"). First off, I won't even say how moronic the second idea is (only allowing MS-approved ads), since, well, first off, Microsoft would never be that stupid, and second, they don't get the purpose of this thing!

It's not to block ads; it's to stop the multi-site tracking that's done by a lot of websites (who are, presumably, serving ads).

But I think the most aggravating thing is that if Firefox did something like this, they'd be pissing themselves saying how awesome Mozilla is.

Fuck Slashdot.

Anonymous said...

Now this is a rant. Quality stuff :-)

Quick everyone go to slashdot and troll them about how Biden voted for evil RIAA and FBI bills.

http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/24/1332259

Clearly that is the reason for the DNC siding with Microsoft.

The best way to fight slashdot is to introduce paranoid gibberish into the hive mind to discredit them.

Ricardo said...

Another stupid post! It's one of those 90% of posts that are completely useless, from any point of view people could choose.

It's one of the "I don't have anything to say so... i'll bitch and moan with the pseudo-inability to see the useless crap democratic site of the american election".

So... moving along! See ya!

smitty1e said...

Data, like people, deserve emancipation. Boo, hiss on the plutocrats running both parties for keeping information in digital chains.

Bodhibuilder said...

All lusers ever do is bitch about how others don't conform to their liking. Here is the clue: do something innovative, then if it's better than anything else, maybe the world will adopt it. Flash was omnipresent, then MS came up with Silverlight. Guess what, they didn't whine about how Flash is a monopoly, and how people discriminate other formats. They didn't write bullshit propaganda "10 reasons not to use Flash", "Don't use Flash, enemy of our freedom". They just did their job and waited for results to come. And slowly they are winning the market. And you fucktards wonder why the world does not notice your second class crapware immitations. That's just childish: just as naive, just as annoying.

LHB Supporter said...

man you are getting bad day by day. I am not sure, if i want to support you anymore. Just read this damn post once again, and try to think " do you honestly believe in all this crap you just wrote?" Why don't you go back to do the thing you do best, and that is pointing defects out in the Linux system.

Pedro Francisco said...

Now now, be a nice guy AND STOP THE BASHING. Start writing on decent stuff, like how you did when told exactly what was needed in Xorg. Your posts are getting boring.

obama_hater said...

Im voting Mccain anyway. Obama's was an alright candidate until he picked that whacknut waste of sperm Biden. I would rather have troops in Iraq for 100 years and pay 10 bucks for a gallon of gas then let Obama/Biden be in office.

Anonymous said...

Poor lusers.

They can't even threat to vote for the other party, because both of them are equipped by MS:

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2008/aug08/08-19conventions.mspx

Anonymous said...

The GOP convention is also backed by Microsoft but it doesn't say anything about Silverlight being used for videos.

Anyway, Moonlight is on track to support Silverlight 2.0 but it isn't available yet.

Moonlight supports Silverlight 1.1 but 2.0 is vastly different and uses the a specialized version of the .NET framework.

The Mono team posses the Silverlight specifications and binary video/audio codecs; its not as if they are walking blindfolded in a dark tunnel like the Gnash project.

Anonymous said...

Real linux hate goes on here:

http://beranger.org/

and has for a long time now.

Anonymous said...

Actually, even if Moonlight wanted to support the DNC site, they probably couldn't. Apparently, as well as Silverlight it needs some obscure third-party streaming plugin that's only available for Windows and Mac.

Plus, the site apparently only works on Intel Macs, which means that anyone with a Mac that's more than a couple of years old can't watch it either. (That'll probably end up hurting them far more than the lack of Linux support, even though I'd guess there are at least as many Linux as PPC Mac users these days.)

Anonymous said...

Another one for your link roundups? - http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/08/12/year-of-what-now . I prefer your original (where you talk about problems you've found) articles more though (they have a better feel but darn it - some of your articles seem to be helping people to fix stuff. What's up with that?). Great stuff!

Anonymous said...

How about a rant about that lack of a kernel API (let alone a stable kernel ABI) which the OSS (sound) folks say is hurting them - http://4front-tech.com/hannublog/?p=11 ? Watch out for Greg Kroah-Hartman's points if you do go at it though.

rob menke said...

It’s not Yes We Can, it’s Yes I Can.

That has immediately supplanted the classic “BSD is for people who love UNIX; Linux is for people who hate Microsoft” as my favorite Linux-in-a-nutshell aphorism.

Bodhibuilder said...

Stop bitching! The man has been posting almost every day for like three months now. He hasn't had any ad income for some time now, and had little before thanks to adblockers. Now, most flaws of the Linux model, the Linux itself have been covered. There is only luser's stupidity left to be mocked at. And as they get younger and younger they pretty much mock themselves without any need for commentary. And anyway, nothing is forever, especially in the ephemeric world of www. How much can you flog the dead horse Linux is anyway? Don't moan that the blog is starting to become less of a revelation for all of you because at some point it is bound to be. You can't just have the best stuff all the time especially if your only act of gratutide is whining for more and how you're going to stop reading the blog. Still, keep up the good work, LH and thanks for all the great work you're doing.

Anonymous said...

"Im voting Mccain anyway. Obama's was an alright candidate until he picked that whacknut waste of sperm Biden. I would rather have troops in Iraq for 100 years and pay 10 bucks for a gallon of gas then let Obama/Biden be in office"

If you had troops in Iraq for 100 years the US economy would no longer exist. Gas will be expensive for a long time even if they drill the shit out of the ocean. Instead of depending on gas forever, find alternatives and get you head out of your ass. I'd rather have Obama than some bible thumping Bush carbon copy.

Anonymous said...

"Man this IE8 BS is the most fun:

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/08/26/0046203.shtml

Microsoft is doing something awesome here, and the first thing they do is complain about it ("they're trying to get rid of Google Analytics!" or "omigod, they're going to make it block only certain ads, and only allow MS-approved ads!"). First off, I won't even say how moronic the second idea is (only allowing MS-approved ads), since, well, first off, Microsoft would never be that stupid, and second, they don't get the purpose of this thing!

It's not to block ads; it's to stop the multi-site tracking that's done by a lot of websites (who are, presumably, serving ads)."

And yet IE will still continue to suck and be insecure as shit. Why people even use IE is a mystery.

Anon E Moose said...

"Why people even use IE is a mystery."

*shrug* because it's there, and most of them don't know any better.

Now, why people make the conscious choice to use Lin.... naw: it's too easy a shot to take ;)

Anonymous said...

@anonymous: "And yet IE will still continue to suck and be insecure as shit. Why people even use IE is a mystery."

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one. IE7 on Vista running in reduced-privilege mode is among the most secure browsers available. If you believe otherwise, you really need to upgrade to a new meme.

Anonymous said...

Great article. Keep them coming.

And Go Obama!

Anonymous said...

In response to pedro_francisco & lhb supporter.

Awwww.. look at all the sad faces around here, like they all realized this guy really doesn't like Linux - or the user community.

Keep telling yourselves he's trying to help you, it's cute.

Here's some real constructive criticism for you lusers. Switch to Solaris, Mac OS X, Windows, or actually contribute to open source. If you're not a developer, or fully accept Linux as just a hobby, you are bat-shit insane.

Anonymous said...

//I'd rather have Obama than some bible thumping Bush carbon copy.//

Right, because a muslim-leaning, Louis Farrakhan-loving Hussein is just what we need to lead the free world into the next epoch. Hope you enjoy life when he starts killing everyone who isn't a muslim.

thecodewitch said...

And with that, the comment section completes its descent into 4chan.

Anonymous said...

Indeed it is...

IMMA FIRIN' MAH LAZER!

Anonymous said...

Ever notice how an OS with only 1% marketshare receives almost as much press coverage as Windows?


You've obviously never noticed that few outside of that 1% give a rat's *ss about press coverage of an operating system.

thepld said...

Folks, please. Linux's shittyness is apolitical. Eric S. Raymond is the lunatic right-wing gun nut, while Richard Stallman is the neo-Marxist leftist.

Anyways, who wants to bet that the infamous Diebold voting machines run Linux?

Anonymous said...

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one. IE7 on Vista running in reduced-privilege mode is among the most secure browsers available. If you believe otherwise, you really need to upgrade to a new meme.

Exactly; IE6 was garbage, but IE7 in Vista is secure, stable, fast (both in launching and in rendering), and the UI is damn good looking. IE8 will even be fully CSS 2.1 compliant by default. Firefox on the other hand hasn't seen any new notable features since v1.0, is clunky and slow, less secure than IE7 in Vista, and has really ugly a GUI.

thecodewitch said...

If anyone is wondering why the comments section seems just a little quieter than usual, it could have something to do with the nice flamewar still going strong, 2 posts back.

http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/2008/08/certified-to-suck.html?commentPage=2

Anyone feel like toasting some marshmallows?

Anon E Moose said...

Daaaaaaamn.... I've obviously moved on too soon.

Got something to read during my lunch break now.

Oh, and as to the candidates. As an observer outside of the US, I must say that neither of them strike me as being anything other than politicians (and I consider that to be a slanderous word).

There are no great statesmen any more :(

Anonymous said...

And seriously: That's why u shouldn't really care 'bout american politics...

Anonymous said...

Where is the subtlety? Where is the intelligence? Where is the originality? You had some really good posts, and some great reverse psychology, but now it has become little more than a circle jerk of those who daydream about Bill G and Balmer. You could take some lessons from a Mr Cox.

http://michcoxmsft.spaces.live.com/default.aspx

Been doing it right for a long time now.

Anonymous said...

You right wingers really need to look up what Communism and Socialism are. You make fools of yourselves on a daily basis attaching those terms to everything you disagree with.

And as to the asshat that claims Obama "leans muslim", get a life. What the hell does "leans muslim" even mean? You remind me of that psycho that was interviewed on MSNBC who said Obama was a "registered muslim".

My god the right wing in this country prides itself on being DUMB doesn't it?

Lol Lolovici said...

"Anyways, who wants to bet that the infamous Diebold voting machines run Linux?"

I heard that some voting machines use a well known antivirus and hence run Windows. And I base all my knowledge on this:

http://xkcd.com/463/

Of course I didn't bother to search what the Diebold voting machine is. This is the interwebz and we all have ADD after all...

PS. Ahaaa, XKCD to the rescue, now I know what Diebold is. So they run windows. Take that whoever you are that are reading this and somehow feel the need to have a "windows is teh best" comeback that I will never read because I don't care.

Anonymous said...

Linux is not a democracy. Linux is anarchy. Everyone going in their own damn directions.

Anarchy implies order, what you describe is chaos. Honestly, try understanding the theory behind the name before you slander it by comparing it to Linux.

pgtips said...

Anarchy implies order

In the same way communism implies utopia. Both work nicely in theory, but fail utterly in practice.

Anonymous said...


http://michcoxmsft.spaces.live.com/default.aspx

Been doing it right for a long time now.



go whore your blog somewhere else. asshole.

Anonymous said...

Just say NO to Obama! Don't give our country away to the terrorists!

COUNTRY FIRST. AMERICANS FIRST.

McCain for President 2008.
http://www.johnmccain.com/

Anonymous said...

Avoid the Gates of Hell! Use Linux!

Christian said...

'cuze me, as a social liberal and bisexual (by US standards I'm a fuckin' dirty hippie, not having cut my hair in the lats 9 months or so, and living in Sweden, where the word Liberal have another meaning, PS: We're above the US and the UK on the Human Development Index) I have to say I'm offended that you'd insinuate that I'd prefer Linux, hate companies and/or support Obama, seriously.

A) I use Linux only for pen testing and IT security related stuff, I use Vista x64 Ultimate for day to day use

B) I'm about to start a company of my own, I want companies to be more free then they are today in Sweden

C) I supported Obama until he chose Biden as his VP

There, I feel all better having raged a bit, quit fuckin' generalize stuff like that.

On topic: That's pretty much the very core of the problem with Linux, no one to command what should be done.

Anon E Moose said...

And the reason why the situation will never improve is that even suggesting there are issues with Linux and the way it's "developed" is guaranteed to get you verbally crucified, villified, and ultimately ignored.

Shuttleworth is finding this out.

The best product to come out of the community is contempt. They've got such a variety of it and it's very well tested, with a very wide adoption across all platforms.

And, ultimately, it's useless...

Anonymous said...

"go whore your blog somewhere else. asshole."

Talk dirty to me, what is Bill wearing in your fantasy right now? Not my blog skidmark, just one I admire.

Anonymous said...

Wow, you know the comments section has gone way down considerably when it attracts Muslim-haters and American jingoists.

Anonymous said...

Who in their right mind would want to see a bunch of disgusting liberal-communist propaganda anyway? The DNC is doing Linux users a SERVICE.

McCain 2008!

Anonymous said...


Talk dirty to me, what is Bill wearing in your fantasy right now? Not my blog skidmark, just one I admire.


How do you know hes in my fantasy but you don't know what hes wearing.

I guess linux users are retarded that way. 1% market share In Real Life (tm)

Anonymous said...

Who in their right mind would want to see a bunch of disgusting liberal-communist propaganda anyway? The DNC is doing Linux users a SERVICE.

McCain 2008!


I like how both parties' politics fall to the right of Richard Nixon yet one party still gets compared to the communists.

Then again I keep forgetting that the real enemy are the homosexuals that want to marry, so what do I know?

Anonymous said...

1% market share In Real Life (tm)

Linux has sub-1% market share; more like 0.8% really.

WE ARE *NIXED! said...

IE7 on Vista more secure? Sure, if you don't mind user access control blocking you from downloading anything at all. That's what happened on my Dell Inspiron notebook I got recently.

I tried grabbing OpenOffice and Firefox. I chose to run the setup. They downloaded to a temporary folder, and what happened next? Oh, I'm sorry! Absolutely nothing.... that was... until I turned UAC off, which defeats the purpose of it in the first place.

There's a difference between security and retarded paranoia.

Anon E Moose said...

Ah, but remember that market share doesn't matter. They're happy to labour away on stuff that, statistically, no one wants.

(desktop) Linux development seems like a hobby, like crochet. If anything useful comes to pass, that's a bonus, since they really don't care if anyone finds it useful or not.


Or at least that's the impression I get from the propaganda I've seen (KDE4 fiasco for one).

I'd rather support the efforts of the BSD-on-the-desktop projects, but they are even further behind. At least there are standards there, though, and a sane development model.

Choosing a linux distro is like voting - you vote for the man whome you despise the least. For me, choosing a distro is an act of finding the one where most of what I need works, and where the breakage occurs in places where I will not notice it.

(back to OpenSuSE now because I can't remember how badly it was noticeably broken compared to the others that have come since).

ah...distro hopping is analogous to being on the meth: you know it's bad for your mind, but you just can't stop.

Anon E Moose said...

Yeah, I turn off UAC too, because I'm not some fucking idiot who needs my OS to wipe my bottom and tell me I'm a good boy.

Unfortunately that's not true for the vast majority of users (today I had to show 2 people how to save a bookmark to the Links bar).

Computers have become too easy to use faster than they have been made able to cope with the twits who use them.

Perhaps there should be mandatory training and certification for anyone who wants to use the web before they can get connected ;P

Anonymous said...

KDE4 fiasco for one

That and other things opened my eyes to just how bad things were.

No matter what you pick, it's still built on top of a foundation made of shit, ran by people with different agendas, with no one at the wheel.

I did have fun breaking the fuck out of plasma before I left.

Anon E Moose said...

"ran by people with different agendas"

You said it. Reading between the lines, it's obvious that Torvalds himself couldn't care less about anyone downstream and what their needs may be. The kernel is his baby and he'll shake it and break it as he sees fit for so long as it amuses him to muck with it.

That's a nasty looking KDE4 not-a-desktop, by the way :LOL:!

Anonymous said...

That's a nasty looking KDE4 not-a-desktop, by the way :LOL:!

I actually tried to set it up how I would like it.

To do that I had to find and edit the plasma config file, use kcalc and the onscreen ruler... just to set the positions, height, width etc.

http://img393.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kderulerzk6.jpg

After that I broke it to pieces. Cluestick hit me hard, realized what I said in my previous post, and ended almost a decade of using Linux as my desktop.

Anonymous said...

Heh, nice.

How exactly did you manage to break Plasma so badly?

What did modify in the config file?

I find it hard to believe that the screenshot is anything more than photoshoped.

It looks like a collage of thumbnail screenshots with different wallpapers.

The fade gradient and text at the bottom of the picture adds insult to injury.

Anonymous said...

How exactly did you manage to break Plasma so badly?

What did modify in the config file?


This was about a month or so ago so forgive if I don't recall exactly how I did it. I d/l the kde live cd and jogged my memory.

I opened plasma-appletsrc trying to set things like I mentioned in previous posts, and found I could clone [containments] by:

copy/pasting:
[containments][1]
|
|
|
z value=0

then incrementing the number...

[containments][2]
[containments][3]

...then I set the background to something bullshit..

and killing X...

I zoomed out via the "cashew" and kept adding widgets, resizing them into odd shapes. Zoomed out again and you have the mess I saw.

Here is a larger shot: http://img391.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plasmavl6.jpg

bazhang said...

ZOMG what a hater

bazhang
fareast1337@gmail.com

Anonymous said...

Your clueless is impressive.

Even in the fiftheenth year of existence of the platform-independent-designed world wide web there are still amateurs around, who are not able to create content, which does not depend on certain platforms.

THIS is ridiculous, not that Linux does not yet support some shiny cutting-edge super-duper technology.

Anonymous said...

Regarding plasma:
I'm trying hard not to offend you, anonymous, however you asked for trouble and you got it. Plasma didn't have configuration UI for quite some time (now it has), so you edited the configuration files and broke your desktop. This is neither a big deal nor a surprise for a work-in-progress desktop, I wonder whose fault you think this is. By the way, I consider KDE 4 a success, why do you say it is a failure?

Anon E Moose said...

Personally I like the ideas behind KDE4, for the most part - other than the default launcher, which is as bad as Vistas (I like the old Win98 style, personally, and still use it).

The failure comes from what has already been flamed around the world and back several times: certain distros pushing alpha grade software on unsuspecting people (like myself) and thus giving us a horrible first impression (the one that lasts), along with a huge bone to pick with the people who are supposed to be putting together complete and functional operating systems, rather than making us all into unwitting beta testers.

KDE4.1 isn't bad. It's not all there by any means, but it has done something to mitigate the PR disaster of the premature inclusion of 4.0 into the likes of Fedora, Kubuntu, SuSE.

Anonymous said...

Plasma didn't have configuration UI for quite some time (now it has),

Each widget might have a config dialog but there is no way, for example, to align a bunch of them to the bottom of the screen or some kind of snap-to-grid setting.

Look at the ruler screenshot again, I wasn't using a panel if that's what you are thinking of. The panels have one of the most craptacular dialogs I have ever seen.

so you edited the configuration files and broke your desktop.

Someone asked how I ended up with that screenshot, I tried to remember exactly what I did. You can do it without editing any files.

http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kraptp0.png


Wasn't this one of the things they hyped up about Plasma? Custom containments (desktops) that could be setup for different tasks?

This is neither a big deal nor a surprise for a work-in-progress desktop<

But according to them, Plasma is mature and ready for use today.

I think they bit off more than they could chew and are fucked. Plasma was dead-on-arrival and no amount of work is going to change that.

Anonymous said...

Your anger amuses me.

Lusers are rapists and racists said...

I have, in my possession, many informations regarding why Linux on the desktop fails.

El Guapo said...

My favorite was the dumbfuck who said he was not voting for Obama because the cast did not support his horseshit choice of an O/S.

I should expect nothing less from a propeller headed fucktard, but still, I was amazed at the stupidity.

Why should the DNC give one fuck about these zap minded fuckballs? It's not like they're going to leave their mom's basement and go vote!?

Anonymous said...

i just stumbled across this blog and cannot resist to drop a few lines about its idiocy. You dedicate a blog to bashing a far from perfect operating system but ignore the fact that all the other operating systems out there are equally far from perfect, if not further. Having worked with a Gazillion Linux distros, *BSD, Windows XP and Vista, and OS X, here are my impressions without getting into too much detail:

Windows XP + Vista:
+ Works out of the box (if one ignores crashing drivers, something one cannot do anything about until the manufacturer gets around to finally fixing the problem)
+ Lots of really cool software (that works most of the time).
- Security is a joke, starting with such a complicated notion of file permissions that average Joe simply has no chance to configure it right.
- Resource consumption, particularly in Vista, goes through the roof. My 6-year old IBM laptop with 128MB of RAM and a 700MHz Pentium III running Linux is *far* more responsive than my newest dual-core machine with 3GB of RAM running Vista. How can this go so wrong? What really useful feature does Vista provide at such cost that wasn't already there in Windows 3.1?

OS X
+ Extremely sexy and shiny
+ Secure (thanks to BSD under the hood)
+ Reasonably fast in spite of all the eye candy
- Extreme mouse orientation (a problem, though to a lesser extent, also with Windows). This makes it very hard for someone with dozens of windows open to navigate between them quickly.
- Much less software than on Windows. In theory, all the open-source stuff should be available, but more often than not, it doesn't quite work. This is probably a two-sided problem of open-source development often being focused only on Linux and of Mac OS being BSD but not quite.

Linux/*BSD:
+ Lots of choice in terms of configuring how one's desktop works (Yes, Linux with Gnome or KDE is probably worse than Windows; but there are alternatives that make it a truly powerful OS)
+ Fast, excellent environment for serious work
- Newest technologies are often poorly supported (but this is to be expected when volunteers write code to support new hardware based on scant documentation available from the manufacturer).
- As a result, not ideal for entertainment
- Still not as easy to setup for average Joe as commercial OSes, even though things progressed tremendously over the last 15 years.
- Serious lack of direction without some body that develops specs of how everything in the OS is supposed to go together. Many of the new "improvements" in the kernel etc are just ugly hacks, fixes, rather than well thought-out designs.

Wouldn't it be cool to have an operating system with the stability of BSD, the variety of software as on Windows and Linux, the ease of use as OS X, and the configurability of Linux for "power users"? Such a system does not exist to date. What you guys are doing, just as the guys over on all the Windows-hater blogs, is trying to kid yourself that you have adopted the best of all the bad choices by bashing the alternatives, which may be better or worse than the OS of your choice depending on what you want to do.

BTW: Someone on this blog asked what Microsoft could d ot make the open-sourcers happy. As for me, the answer is: stop charging me $200 for an OS that is not an inch better than Linux (which costs $0). If I have to choose between two evils, I most certainly choose the one I don't have to pay for because the other one is also worth $0.

Anonymous said...

Someone on this blog asked what Microsoft could d ot make the open-sourcers happy. As for me, the answer is: stop charging me $200 for an OS that is not an inch better than Linux (which costs $0).
IN other words, you'd be happy with Windows if it costs 0$, and in this case it would magically stop sucking. So, actually, you are not interested in Open Source, modifying source code, spreading freedom etc... you are in it just for the money.

Tron said...


- Security is a joke

Go read the NT white papers. Go read about the reasoning behind the NT design model and why they threw out UNIX file/device/io because of the inherent insecurity. Go read about object/token based design. What you want to have a kernel architecture discussion here?


What really useful feature does Vista provide at such cost that wasn't already there in Windows 3.1?

it runs 254 million applications that people actually use.



OS X
+ Secure (thanks to BSD under the hood)

BSD makes it secure? Do you even fucking know what BSD is? XP and Vista uses BSD (SUA) too, does it make then super secure then ?? Retard.


OSX has the worst design for escalation. It uses fucking SUDO which is not tied to a process which leaves the root account open. (common to all unixes, LOL). it hands of the elevation the the user level root account.


There is _NO_ user level root account in vista. its impossible to log in as root in vista. There will _always_ be an elevation predicate involved. That alone makes it vastly secure than osx.


The ignorance is amazing..

Linux/*BSD:
+ Fast, excellent environment for serious work

Linux is in _NO_ _WAY_ even close to BSD in any way shape or form. Get a fucking clue.

OK I think I'm going to stop here. I've wasted enough time. So far you've showed what a complete idiot you are. Speak that shit in a kernel developer forum or conference and your balls will go numb when you realize what your talking is complete crap.
--
You're not even worth replying to. I did a favor to the readers here who you're trying to fool with random technical crap which you have no clue about.

Mad Bastard said...

I'd like to retort those who believe the OP is using Anarchy incorrectly. He is not: Anarchy is a system where the individual works for his own interest without the service of others primarily. I'm not going to bring Utilitarianism to the table here, but the only reason this anarchy works unlike the political model is the Internet's lack of physical injury (which would be the peril of any system without the state: gang warfare, tribal warfare)

Anonymous said...

Go read the NT white papers. Go read about the reasoning behind the NT design model and why they threw out UNIX file/device/io because of the inherent insecurity. Let's see now, NT has had privilege escalation vulnerabilities since its inception (design problem, also check this, every windows version is currently vulnerable), so you're saying that they implemented a more secure permissions system than unix and rendered it useless, and this proves that windows is as secure. Right.
Vista uses heuristics to identify the applications that need privilege escalation, one criterion is .msi file extension! How secure is this?
Unix permissions cover ~90% of common use scenarios and you may use POSIX ACLs for the rest. Windows is supposed to be user-friendly, yet I doubt the average user will find ACLs more intuitive than unix permissions, which also have a proven record of ~30 years behind them in huge multi-user systems. Also, the unix everything-is-a-file design makes it extremely user-friendly, as standard tools can be used to do most tasks in a simple fashion. Windows is very complex here without any benefit that I can see.

There is _NO_ user level root account in vista. its impossible to log in as root in vista. There will _always_ be an elevation predicate involved. That alone makes it vastly secure than osx. Are you talking about the Administrator account that had by default an empty password in previous versions? This is hidden in vista. Are you talking about UAC and ILS, using which you "aren’t guaranteed that your elevated processes aren’t susceptible to compromise by those running at a lower IL", according to Mark Russinovich? Su and sudo are designed to be more secure than always using root and they achieve that with a simple design. One can set more fine-grained permissions using SELinux and apparmor, if sudo isn't enough.

Windows security has always been a joke, get used to it.

Bill O'rly said...

Fucking Windows sucks.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, I was going to say most Unix and Unix-like OSes support POSIX ACLs and distributions have GUI utilities for managing ACL permissions in addition to the CLI tool. There are probably even plugins for Nautilus and Dolphin/Konq file managers to edit ACL attributes of files and folders.

I personally don't use ACLs on *nix but they exist if I wanted them.

The advanced security settings dialog in Windows is not intuitive by any means.

Su and Sudo aren't the same. Sudo grants certain users and/or groups specific elevated rights. Its not the same as being root and having control of everything.

Anonymous said...

I'd like to retort those who believe the OP is using Anarchy incorrectly. He is not: Anarchy is a system where the individual works for his own interest without the service of others primarily.

FOSS is not anarchy, its closer to the libertarian ideal of the free market because of the nature of the GPL, if it were anarchy every piece of code would be in the public domain and people wouldn't get pissy when someone didn't follow the license.

Anonymous said...

As for UAC, simply renaming any EXE file to "setup.exe" will cause UAC to prompt for elevation.

Epic fail.

Anonymous said...

Panhandlers and wanna-be-dictators unite! Lunix is here...

Anonymous said...

Epic fail.

It's called installer detection.

Vista looks for files with names like setup.exe and install.exe and it will pop a UAC dialog if you run it. Also used by the Program Compatibility Assistant.

But you are right, this is a failure. How dumb of the Vista team to not consider that one day, some random dumbass would rename a non-setup executable to setup.exe and then try to run it.

Say, if I renamed some random file to onefake.rpm and then tried to open it, you think I would be prompted to run a package manager as root?

Surely Linux is smart enough to detect that it isn't really an rpm file right? It's not going to rely on the file extension is it?

OS's that rely on file names and extensions to actually mean what they mean... what a weird idea.

Anonymous said...

Except that UAC isn't relying on the file extension in this scenario; UAC is relying on the file name.

The package manager will attempt to install the bogus RPM but if it wasn't compiled with a spec file script then the package manager would just fail with an error--nothing would happen.

This is in contrast to a virus renamed as setup.exe. The application will be prompted for elevation then run.

Windows makes no checks to determine if a valid installation utility is launched.

Anonymous said...

The other thing about RPMs and DEB packages are that they are much like ZIP files. You can open fileroller and examine all the contents of the RPM as you could with a ZIP file.

Anonymous said...

even though I'd guess there are at least as many Linux as PPC Mac users these days.)

Linux has nowhere even remotely near that kind of usage. PPC OS X still holds 2.5% of the overall market, Linux holds 0.8%, that's just under a 3:1 margin. (source)

Anonymous said...

Linux has a mean marketshare of approximately 1%. But we must take into account the Linux adopters dual-booting with Windows and possessing VM Windows guests.

Sadly, only a fraction of desktop Linux users are solely dedicated to the platform.

I have no multi-boot systems nor use any VMs but I'll even admit that I'm a big time Wine user. In addition, I have a seamless Windows terminal server configuration dedicated for applications unsupported by Wine or Mono.

FOSS solutions alone just aren't adequate for some things. For example, there is nothing remotely close to Dreamweaver on *nix--Nvu is dog crap.

Worse, 90% of FOSS solutions have Windows ports. Therefore migrating to Linux on the sole basis of open source application availability is nonsense.

Tron said...


Let's see now, NT has had privilege escalation vulnerabilities since its inception (design problem, also check this, every windows version is currently vulnerable), so you're saying that they implemented a more secure permissions system than unix and rendered it useless, and this proves that windows is as secure.

Ohh the fact that an authenticated user _may_ freely escalate to a higher level, is what? Go lookup linux escalation vulnerabilities if you want to feel warm and fuzzy. Or OSX. LOL Running an special ECMA Script causes this. /laugh. Is that why Vista couldnt be hacked in the recently held competition? LOL

The funniest is the Debian SSL vulnerability. WOW. How could you guys fuck that up? Many eyes? Many _stupid_ eyes I guess. If you want to speak about windows vulnerabilities, you'll have to first defend all the vulnerabilities of linux.


Vista uses heuristics to identify the applications that need privilege escalation, one criterion is .msi file extension! How secure is this?

Because it has nothing to do with security. Its to do with application compatibility. The fact that a escalation happens is to show the sorry fact that most software developers are idiots. A properly written software shouldnt need it. I guess I have to explain it as if you were 2 yrs old.



Unix permissions cover ~90% of common use scenarios and you may use POSIX ACLs for the rest. Windows is very complex here without any benefit that I can see.

Then youre an idiot and I would be wasting my time. Go speak to any admin managing hundreds or thousands of computers on a domain. They will laugh at you if you want to use linux. Linux is the _joke_ in the corporate desktops scenario. flat files? wow..



Are you talking about the Administrator account that had by default an empty password in previous versions? This is hidden in vista.

LOL Trying to extract information from me by writing as if you know something. This statement told me exactly how much you know. There is no user level root in vista. Its _impossible_ to run as root. Its not hidden.



Are you talking about UAC and ILS, using which you "aren’t guaranteed that your elevated processes aren’t susceptible to compromise by those running at a lower IL", according to Mark Russinovich?

From the article "It should be clear then, that neither UAC elevations nor Protected Mode IE define new Windows security boundaries." LOL linking to an article and asking a question already answered. Wow Are you stupid?



Su and sudo are designed to be more secure than always using root and they achieve that with a simple design.

You dont run as root in vista too. Since vista has no root, that makes it more secure right? Even more simple design.



One can set more fine-grained permissions using SELinux and apparmor, if sudo
isn't enough.

That makes it exactly like UAC. Except, SELinux is horrible crap to configure.



Windows security has always been a joke, get used to it.

LOL. You're just quoting other people without having _ANY_ knowledge of your own. If I wanted to speak to Mark I would at the next conference he attends. I dont need your retard ass quoting shit.


All the LUsers have shown is they dont no clue even about the design of their own system, let alone being qualified to comment on NT. Pity.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous: "Vista uses heuristics to identify the applications that need privilege escalation, one criterion is .msi file extension! How secure is this?"

You're focusing on the wrong details. Vista's heuristic doesn't automatically escalate privileges. It only uses the heuristic to determine whether it should prompt the user with UAC. If the executable either doesn't match the heuristic criteria ("setup.exe|install.exe") or the user says "No, please don't escalate" via UAC, then the program runs with user privileges. Which is precisely what Linux (and BSD) would do. On the other hand, it does make it easier for a malware writer to create a virus package named "setup.exe" and try to get a user to install it. But that's really a problem that can't be solved technically. It's an education problem. The flip side of the coin is that, if the user tries to install something in Linux, and he lack privileges to do so, he's basically going to sit there with his thumb up his ass, because he doesn't know how to "sudo". This is a tradeoff in usability, not security.

Anonymous said...


Linux has a mean marketshare of approximately 1%. But we must take into account the Linux adopters dual-booting with Windows and possessing VM Windows guests.


Ofcource they do. This basic statistics 101.

Same way in TV ratings they include people switching channels, watching two news shows at once etc.

All statistics have a margin of error. If you think its wrong, I suggest you prove it first.

Anonymous said...

Except that UAC isn't relying on the file extension in this scenario; UAC is relying on the file name.

It needs both. A file named setup with no extension won't trigger a UAC prompt.

This is in contrast to a virus renamed as setup.exe. The application will be prompted for elevation then run.

Nothing happens unless the user clicks on and confirms the action, not much UAC can do to prevent a user from choosing to do so. The fault lies with the user.

Linux wouldn't prevent this either, you can create a legit-looking package/installer or slip something into the source code and do the same thing.

Anonymous said...

It needs both. A file named setup with no extension won't trigger a UAC prompt.

This is assuming UAC is even enabled on the Admin account.

But I digress... OS use of file extension associations are no mystery. The virus or trojan could of had an EXE extension before.

The point is its very easy to trick the user with this configuration.

Linux wouldn't prevent this either, you can create a legit-looking package/installer or slip something into the source code and do the same thing.

No, it would have to be a real legit RPM package. In Fedora, I can install any RPM with the GUI but I'll have to enter my root password into PackageKit, once to open the manager then again to allow unsigned packages to install.

Once the virus is installed the program would have to be triggered externally with root or sudo elevation and that is done by dropping to the command line or creating a shortcut with gksudo or gksu/kdesu.

Essentially it comes down to a Linux user being required to jump thru far more hoops then clicking Cancel or Allow to malicious application disguised as Setup.exe or clicking nothing at all if UAC were disabled, which sadly is a common occurrence.

We agree that with enough persistence that a user can fuck themselves over.

Now there are always the viruses that can fuck with home directories but that is what backups are for.

Anonymous said...

Anyway, I think we've deviated enough from the topic which is about Linux users not being able to view a website with two proprietary plugins.

Moonlight 2.0 is under development (just like Silverlight 2.0 is still a beta); Microsoft's implementation is just further along than Moonlight.

The Move media player is a different game. It'd be interesting to see if it works in Windows Firefox via Wine or if a Linux plugin is in development.

Anonymous said...

Essentially it comes down to a Linux user being required to jump thru far more hoops then clicking Cancel or Allow to malicious application disguised as Setup.exe or clicking nothing at all if UAC were disabled, which sadly is a common occurrence.

Try making a copy of and renaming notepad.exe to setup.exe; suprise! There is no UAC prompt. Microsoft's engineers aren't idiots; they do more than just check the filename. Also the vast majority of people have UAC enabled; only fucktard idiot "elitists" who think they know better than well experience highly paid software engineers in Redmond. Moreover if you really want to type in your password every fucking time you need to elevate permissions, you can turn that on for your "administrator" accounts in Vista, as it already is in true standard user accounts.

Now there are always the viruses that can fuck with home directories but that is what backups are for.

Another area where Vista is more secure: IE7 runs in protected mode so websites (and therefore all code run online) only have access to temporary internet files without and prompt for elevation. And no, you don't need to elevate to download files you fucktard.

Vista is secure. XP wasn't, and it was total garbage because of it, but the days of insecure Windows are done. You can't crusade on Linux being the bastion of security against insecure Windows; it doesn't have that advantage anymore. Short of NSA-style nazi SELinux distros (IE, essentially unusable on the desktop), Vista is the most secure operating system on the planet.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous, aka vista worshiper:

Short of NSA-style nazi SELinux distros (IE, essentially unusable on the desktop), Vista is the most secure operating system on the planet. With apparmor one can sandbox every application on the system and it is user-friendly enough for the desktop. It is funny to see MS worshipers claim that vista is the most secure OS on the planet, something that MS engineers never had the courage to hint at.

@tron, aka windows worshiper:

Ohh the fact that an authenticated user _may_ freely escalate to a higher level, is what? Go lookup linux escalation vulnerabilities if you want to feel warm and fuzzy. Or OSX. LOL Running an special ECMA Script causes this. /laugh. Is that why Vista couldnt be hacked in the recently held competition? LOL You probably missed the part mentioning that the privilege escalation problem since the inception of NT has been due to a design error, which makes your entire argument crumble. It's OK, check what I wrote once again. Hint: in unix systems, privilege escalation vulnerabilities were due to bugs that were corrected in ~1 day, not design errors that it hasn't been possible to fix since the system was created. How long has the shatter attack been possible in NT? What about the latest privilege escalation vulnerability?
Regarding the hack contest, it takes time for hackers to become familiar with vista. There are already reports that problems that have always plagued windows appear in vista (the link I gave earlier, mouse pointer vulnerability, and others).

The funniest is the Debian SSL vulnerability. WOW. How could you guys fuck that up? Many eyes? Many _stupid_ eyes I guess. If you want to speak about windows vulnerabilities, you'll have to first defend all the vulnerabilities of linux. This shows how desperate you are. No one ever claimed that open-source produces bug-free software, although in some cases it has done so. What people claim (and this makes perfect sense) is that open-source is the best way to get software with as few bugs as possible, considering the alternative development methods. The fact that every single closed-source DNS server was vulnerable to the DNS problem that was published recently, with the exception of an open-source one, points in the same direction. With closed-source, you don't stand a chance.

Because it has nothing to do with security. Its to do with application compatibility. The fact that a escalation happens is to show the sorry fact that most software developers are idiots. A properly written software shouldnt need it. I guess I have to explain it as if you were 2 yrs old. Microsoft software that requires to be launched as an administrator the first time is the not so rarely used Microsoft Office, all versions up to 2007! Are you trying to say that Microsoft developers are idiots?

Regarding RPMs and setup.exe: RPMs are usually signed by the distribution packagers and it is possible to examine their contents, the scripts they execute, even their source code before installing. Since the user has no way to check or doesn't care whether the .msi file is malicious, what's the point in displaying a confirmation dialog?
The UAC handling of setup.exe and .msi files equivalent in linux would be to set every file named setup.* and /bin/rpm setuid root, which is a very stupid thing to do. Of course, UAC was never meant to be a security enhancement, it is just a way to shift blame from Microsoft to the users, which have been spoilt for all these years running windows, thinking that operating a computer is as easy as clicking fancy icons without further thought. Now MS decides that this mentality makes them look bad, so they try to make it appear as if they try to change it. Hiding file extensions by default proves that MS doesn't really care about the users or security, they only care about PR.

Then youre an idiot and I would be wasting my time. Go speak to any admin managing hundreds or thousands of computers on a domain. They will laugh at you if you want to use linux. Linux is the _joke_ in the corporate desktops scenario. flat files? wow.. I have a feeling that you have no idea what I'm talking about, it's OK, try reading what I wrote again 2-3 times. Hint: What does the popularity of windows desktops have to do with their security?

LOL Trying to extract information from me by writing as if you know something. This statement told me exactly how much you know. There is no user level root in vista. Its _impossible_ to run as root. Its not hidden. By "root" you may mean:
1. the administrator account, which is hidden in vista,
2. the system account, which is the account with the most permissions possible, which can be accessed via a number of tricks.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

From the article "It should be clear then, that neither UAC elevations nor Protected Mode IE define new Windows security boundaries." LOL linking to an article and asking a question already answered. Wow Are you stupid? You wrote earlier:
"There will _always_ be an elevation predicate involved. That alone makes it vastly secure than osx.", which means that you consider it a security feature, while Mark Russinovich disagrees. I would call someone stupid if he considers it a feat that he confirms what I say using the references I provide, what do you think?

You dont run as root in vista too. Since vista has no root, that makes it more secure right? Even more simple design. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, anyway: unix security is being tested for ~30 years, is the industry standard and far simpler than windows (in)security. I don't know what makes you think that windows doesn't have the equivalent of the root account, nor why you think that in principle being unable to fully control your system is a security feature.

That makes it exactly like UAC. Except, SELinux is horrible crap to configure. I think you need to make a decision here: Is UAC a security feature or not?

LOL. You're just quoting other people without having _ANY_ knowledge of your own. If I wanted to speak to Mark I would at the next conference he attends. I dont need your retard ass quoting shit.

All the LUsers have shown is they dont no clue even about the design of their own system, let alone being qualified to comment on NT. Pity.
If I'm 2 years old, how old are you? 6 months?

As a bonus: vista is so secure that it is possible to make administrator access impossible!

Windows security has always been a lamejoke. Get used to it.

Tron said...

Looks like you're back from Google.


You probably missed the part mentioning that the privilege escalation problem since the inception of NT has been due to a design error,
..
that it hasn't been possible to fix since the system was created.
..

And what design error is this? Nobody is denying bugs in NT's implementation. You brought bugs up. I was talking at the design level. Bogus FUD. Unless youre you're claiming OSS is bug free or that major bugs have never been found later rather than sooner, I dont see what relevance this point has.


What people claim (and this makes perfect sense) is that open-source is the best way to get software with as few bugs as possible, considering the alternative development methods.

Prove it then. Lets take any random OSS app and see how secure it is ? Open source will give you _something_ . What that something is is completely random. Open source is the most horrible way to organize any team. Open source needs managers, or dev leads to give projects direction. They need proper testers not guinea pigs (users). The list could go on. Anyway I'm not claiming closed source is the best way. Youre claiming OSS is. So prove it.


Microsoft software that requires to be launched as an administrator the first time is the not so rarely used Microsoft Office, all versions up to 2007! Are you trying to say that Microsoft developers are idiots?

One UAC popup _per installation_. Way to prove your point.


What does the popularity of windows desktops have to do with their security?

The point wasnt about the popularity. It looks like you have 0 clue about corporate deployments. MS busts their ass trying to suck the cocks of every business by giving higher importance to anything they ask. Handle any kind of software deployment or migration of thousands of units of computers on a windows domain and then on a linux one (using imaginary tools, i might add) and it will be clear what I'm talking about. Or should I keep reminding you? Maybe your brain loses contexts between posts.


Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Do you? There is no root because you cannot run even as administrator without triggering escalation when required. That link is nothing more than a hardhack of setuid + trojan. If you can do that, the system is already pwned.


I think you need to make a decision here: Is UAC a security feature or not?

I've already answered that. Pay attention.


You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, anyway: unix security is being tested for ~30 years, is the industry standard and far simpler than windows (in)security.

Tested for 30 years? Is that why people keep still keep hacking into linux servers? Some testing. Linux is nowhere near the industry standard. "Get used to it".


I don't need links to put an argument. Looks you you cannot do without it. If I wanted to look at other peoples research I would google it.

Anonymous said...

NT is NOT like *nix kernels or even other MACH variants like OS X. There is a large element of simplicity to its complexity when it is broken down.

The basic NT kernel and design is also very modular, so by comparing it to the Linux kernel is going to get you into trouble.

NT is a hybrid kernel that took a fairly elegant approach to kernel design, especially for the early 90s, as it was a new conceptual kernel of the time, taking some existing kernel architectual models and some of the best kernel theories that had not been implemented before.

For example NT has some MACH conceptual ideas and lightweight kernel API set for performance, but then hands this off to increasing levels of APIs conplexity. This gave NT the ability to be very lightweight at the core, but have extended functionality that didn't weigh the core kernel down.

NT's HAL for example was under 64KB, and even on Vista is still 256KB(slightly larger in Vista x64), which for modern hardware is still extremely small. Going from the HAL to the lower kernel and API layers is still very small, especially compared to other OS kernel models in use today. This is how and why the MS Embedded OSes (XP/Vista) can and do work so well, as NT was simply broken apart as needed for the Embedded versions to make them very light (As in used in a router light).

The essential design of the NT kernel is both object based and a client/server model. This is not normal, or something that you will find in any other consumer level OS out there.

What the client/server model of the kernel of NT allows is the light core kernel with limited APIs secondary NT APIs and then subsystems for the actual OS clients that run on top of it. This is why even Win32/Win64 is just a subsystem that sits on NT, and can be ripped off of NT at anytime, as MS has demostrated for YEARS.

The client/server kernel design of NT is also how MS can and does include a BSD or V5 UNIX subsystem for Vista, as the UNIX subsystem is just another OS sitting on the NT kernel client/server model. The UNIX subysstem in Vista is equal to Win32/64, as they are both sitting on the NT kernel in the same way. Win32/64 only has preference as it is the the default OS subsystem. By both Win32/64 subysstem and the UNIX subsystem running together on top of NT, they both get the drivers and benefits of the NT layered kernel, but also can cross communicate via the NT kernel, and all of this happens with no emulation layers.

For people truly interested in the NT design, source code of the NT kernel can be obtained from Microsoft for academic purposes, just search www.microsoft.com and be a teacher of some sort.

This gives academic minded people access to and a greater understanding the NT architecture from the HAL to the API layers and subsystems that run on it.

Based on the NT design, I would have to correct you in asserting that ripping out EXT3 from Linux would be as hard as adding in Reiser as a comparison. NT and Linux kernels are VERY different in this regard. Take the recent Linux arguments about the HardLocks code that is giving Linux trouble with multi-processor granularity.

Changes to the older hardlock mechanism in Linux requires a substatial amount of work and tricks to bypass, and is why things are not going so well. With an NT design, something like this is API wrapped at a low level, and changing the mechanism would be rather simple, not require someone to sift through 9000 lines of code to change the setting.

Another example would be Vista, and Microsoft adding on a Video driver model. (Not just new drivers, but a new model of how they are handled from the kernel as well.) This was easier on NT than it would be on a Linux or even OS X kernel design because of the NT design. This is also how Microsoft was able to add in the new WDDM while still allowing the XP drivers(XPDM) to operatate on Vista if needed. That alone would be a nightmare situation for both driver and kernel level feature support if this was tried on Linux or OS X.

The WDDM not only splits the video driver to a shared kernel/user level model, but it works with the NT kernel of Vista to things no other consumer currently can do. Features like transparent GPU RAM virutalization, an OS level scheduler for the GPU, creating a pre-emptive state of GPU multitasking controlled by the OS (WDDM), and even multi-GPU processor support that works with the GPU multitasker. The WDDM in Vista allows several 3D applications on screen at the same time, and gives them all extra VRAM than what is available on the GPU hardware, and because the OS handles the multi-tasking, no applicatin can steal the GPU to halt responsiveness, but yet even with demanding games running at the same time, they only lose a few FPS running side by side compared to them running exclusively full screen.

So you can see that dropping in the WDDM to Vista was a good achievement in that it works as transparently as it does, but this would not have been possible if it weren't for the NT achitecture that allows for massive kernel level conceptual changes by adding in new API kernel level constructs that layer on the lightweight lower level NT kernel APIs.

After taking a bit of this in, you can maybe get a glimpse of the simplicity and the complexity of the NT architecture and why the MinWin used at the demostration that started a lot of this, is no different than the internal MinWin that Microsoft has used and showcased internally for years. It is nothing more than the NT kernel at the basic level with select API layers used, which is something that can be fairly easily done with NT. And yes technically the NT kernel can be fairly small when you remove the upper level kernel level API interfaces and especially the subsystems like Win32/64 that sit on top of them.

This is why when people call for Microsoft to write NT from scratch, many OS engineers/theorists like myself scratch our heads at the level of understanding. Rewrite Win32, sure why not, rewrite NT, a sadly bad idea. NT is more advanced and useful than what people give MS credit for, especially if lightweight, extensible, fast, and modular are your design goals for a kernel.

Also a thing of note, you call BSD a kernel, it technically is a set of APIs, an 'interface' to a kernel not an actual kernel, and on OS X would be the API wrappers around the modified MACH system calls, not the OS X kernel.

_

Anonymous said...

"Vista is the most secure operating system on the planet."

Sorry but this has to be backed up by factual data. So far this isn't the case as I've encountered two Win antivirus XP2008 *VISTA* infections in a week . PC's were running AV and UAC. Windows still has no package management and people are gonna click those exe's no matter what they are as well as giving okay to UAC prompts .

If one thinks UAC is the end to all solution, think again. Maybe safer than Xp, but safer than nix ? Sorry thats not gonna happen anytime soon.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous: "Sorry but this has to be backed up by factual data. So far this isn't the case as I've encountered two Win antivirus XP2008 *VISTA* infections in a week . PC's were running AV and UAC. Windows still has no package management and people are gonna click those exe's no matter what they are as well as giving okay to UAC prompts.

You aren't describing security problems. What you're describing are user education issues. Look, the fact of the matter is that, regardless of what you're installing and how it installs, as long as it requires user consent, THAT will remain the weak link in the chain. You can't fix poor user choices that are predicated on a lack of knowledge/education -- without, guess what, promoting knowledge/education.

"If one thinks UAC is the end to all solution, think again. Maybe safer than Xp, but safer than nix ? Sorry thats not gonna happen anytime soon.
"


Getting a user to type a password in order to escalate a package install versus approving a UAC prompt is the same issue -- just wrapped in different clothing. We can argue about whether the slight convenience of a UAC prompt makes it easier to make that choice, but so what. Both are CONSENT-based models and, as such, they're dependent on users to make informed choices.

Here's a suggestion. If your users can't be trusted to make those kinds of choices, don't let them. Either give them minimal-privileg user accounts, or lock down your boxes with centrally-administered group policy, and make software installation a function of group policy. It's really that simple. Because blaming the OS for poor administration is just wrong.

Mark said...

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Tron said...


Maybe safer than Xp, but safer than nix ? Sorry thats not gonna happen anytime soon.


Specifically what are those imaginary features in linux that are supposedly keeping you "safe" that are not possible in vista?


User downloads a file. Clicks to run it. So, what is linux going to do that is soooo much more safe?

Tron said...


Fuck you Steve Ballmer, you go to hell when you die.

Why dont you say that to his face.
Maybe a night in a lockup might change all that :)

Anonymous said...

@ tron, aka windows worshiper:

And what design error is this? Nobody is denying bugs in NT's implementation. You brought bugs up. I was talking at the design level. Bogus FUD. Unless youre you're claiming OSS is bug free or that major bugs have never been found later rather than sooner, I dont see what relevance this point has. Let me repeat what I said before: NT has always had privilege escalation vulnerabilities at the win32 level (not kernel level, you're right here, my conclusion doesn't change though), the design problem is that services can be manipulated by programs with lower privileges via windows messages. This hasn't been fixed in vista, it has been worked around by rewriting privileged services in order to avoid user interaction. Google would be enlightening about this, check this. I'm not talking about bugs here, I repeat for the third time.

Prove it then. Lets take any random OSS app and see how secure it is ? Open source will give you _something_ . What that something is is completely random. Open source is the most horrible way to organize any team. Open source needs managers, or dev leads to give projects direction. They need proper testers not guinea pigs (users). The list could go on. Anyway I'm not claiming closed source is the best way. Youre claiming OSS is. So prove it. I cannot prove this, my reasoning is the following: closed-source code is available to a strict subset of the people that have access to open-source. This makes it plausible that open-source software will have fewer bugs in the long term, as long as people are still interested in it. OSS that points in this direction is various servers and tex. I don't claim that every piece of OSS is bug-proof, actually I believe that in the short-term closed-source may be better for many purposes.

One UAC popup _per installation_. Way to prove your point. My point is that Microsoft, the company that wrote vista, has written a program that requires a UAC prompt without a real reason. This is sufficient to prove my point, why not?

The point wasnt about the popularity. It looks like you have 0 clue about corporate deployments. [] Or should I keep reminding you? Maybe your brain loses contexts between posts. My answer that triggered this response has to do with the simplicity of the unix security model compared to windows. I ask again, what does windows desktop popularity have to do with this? Microsoft has been dominating the corporate desktop since windows 95, does this prove that windows 95 security is better than the unix model?

Do you? There is no root because you cannot run even as administrator without triggering escalation when required. That link is nothing more than a hardhack of setuid + trojan. If you can do that, the system is already pwned. You repeatedly claim that no root account exists, although I gave you links that prove otherwise. Whether one must hack windows to access it is irrelevant.

I've already answered that. Pay attention. Your answers are conflicting. Your previous response:
"That makes it exactly like UAC. Except, SELinux is horrible crap to configure", in which you consider UAC similar to SELinux, a security enhancement. Before this:
"From the article "It should be clear then, that neither UAC elevations nor Protected Mode IE define new Windows security boundaries." Is UAC a security enhancement or not?

Tested for 30 years? Is that why people keep still keep hacking into linux servers? Some testing Linux servers get mostly cracked using brute force attacks against badly configured systems. No system can guard against idiocy, no one claimed otherwise. A linux server system is in general the most secure possible, with each service isolated from another and with the least privileges possible, especially with selinux and apparmor.

Linux is nowhere near the industry standard. I was talking about unix style security here, you're talking about something I never claimed.

I don't need links to put an argument. Looks you you cannot do without it. If I wanted to look at other peoples research I would google it. OK, go ahead and correct your mistakes.

Specifically what are those imaginary features in linux that are supposedly keeping you "safe" that are not possible in vista? Apparmor and selinux. Su to a user with minimal permissions (runas in vista isn't compatible with the majority of windows software). As imaginary as the air I'm breathing.


User downloads a file. Clicks to run it. So, what is linux going to do that is soooo much more safe? Use apparmor to monitor and restrict file system and network access.

My turn: Can you think of a reason for hiding file extensions by default in vista?

Tron said...


Let me repeat what I said before: NT has always had privilege escalation vulnerabilities at the win32 level (not kernel level, you're right here, my conclusion doesn't change though)


Did you even read the link you provided? You're completely spinning the facts.
*SOME* Services, which needed a message queue, to interact with the user, were faced with this problem. This is a design bug in the way the sessions are assigned to services and user apps. And the fix was simply isolating the interactive services into their own session. And this is fixed 100% for those special services, which are very rare. I havent seen a single one in my professional career. (Thats not to say there isnt one, or that there couldnt be one given a valid scenario)

Also the more important point here is that the design bug wasnt the vulnerability. If you have any clue about windows (which you dont seem to), simply accepting messages from any user app isnt going to do squat. There *NEEDS* to be an existing vulnerability in the Interactive service itself, to allow it to be compromised. You're just ramming your head against the wall trying to prove something is a major flaw that is really an insignificant issue.



My point is that Microsoft, the company that wrote vista, has written a program that requires a UAC prompt without a real reason. This is sufficient to prove my point, why not?

Because Microsoft employs 20 thousand (guess) or so people, and not everyone is a perfect programmer. From what I can tell its actually fractured into mini companies that dont always operate in sync with each other. Which is also why there are bugs in Microsoft applications (similar to other apps) even though they have complete source access to the OS, which one would think shouldnt be there. or have many products launched that seem similar. God knows how many times theve tried to do the damn cloud computing & syncing crap. Anyway, short answer: I dont fucking know because I dont work there and nor do I care about one popup.


You repeatedly claim that no root account exists, although I gave you links that prove otherwise. Whether one must hack windows to access it is irrelevant.

I am (and was always) talking about user level root. SYSTEM is not a user level root account. Anyone can see there has to be some "highest" privelage level that wont ever popup a UAC dialog. This is SYSTEM, for obvious reasons. The fact that you can route commands directly to it, bypassing UAC, by hacking into windows, doesnt mean anything.


My answer that triggered this response has to do with the simplicity of the unix security model compared to windows

And who says that windows security model is hard? Also I assumed you were talking about corporate deployments, because with Vista and UAC, securing a desktop is pretty easy. Corporate deployments is a definitely more involved. But there are tools for that. Ofcouce because with UAC the ultimitate decisions is always with the user, so if you decide to, you will always fuckup your system. But as far as I know, not even rootkits can get past UAC, I might fancy my chances running without an antivirus on vista. As it is I have stopped real time scanning and an automated scan gets run every night. I still have to scan individual downloaded files if they might contain a payload, but thats just one extra click. From the OS POV the problem is solved, or pretty close to being complete. All thats left is user education.


Is UAC a security enhancement or not?

I said that because the GENERAL CONCEPT behind UAC and SELinux is the same. The implementation is not. So, yes UAC is a security feature. It just doesnt define any new boundaries or restrictions for applications as you might think because it gets compared to SELinux. Which doesnt change the fact that SE Linux is a horrible choice for anyone on the desktop.


OK, go ahead and correct your mistakes.

Nice joke.


Apparmor and selinux. Su to a user with minimal permissions (runas in vista isn't compatible with the majority of windows software). As imaginary as the air I'm breathing.

I'm talking about realistic solutions. BTW Windows users can also be locked down through group policy as is often done on corporate desktops. And through local policy as well.


Use apparmor to monitor and restrict file system and network access.

LOL. I obviously meant what an average user can do. A poweruser already can secure their OS regardless of choice. The average user is absolutely going to download crap, click on phishing links, etc, etc. The correct answer is : Nothing. UAC's heuristics & Protected mode of IE are 100 times better than hoping (fantasizing) ends user will configure selinux & apparmour.


Can you think of a reason for hiding file extensions by default in vista?

I thought they were hidden in XP too. Anyway they only reason I can think of is to hide complexity. Users probably want to just name the file with some meaningful meta-data, and then rely on the icon to know what it is. W thing for word, etc. IIRC Vista can autodetect the folder contents and present contents in content-specific format. e.g. image files as shown as thumbnails, etc.

Anonymous said...

Can you think of a reason for hiding file extensions by default in vista?

Many users would be absolutely confounded if they renamed a file without the extension (even against a warning) and found that they couldn't open it anymore. Hiding this complexity from the user is good design; people who want to see the user (like myself) face the daunting task of editing a single config box once in the entire time they have Windows installed.

Anderlan said...

Of course, cspan streamed it all normally.

franko said...

That's true, Linux is anarchy, just like true democracy is. Do you really call "democracy" the centralistic despotism of the USA? Come on! Go and read a book, for a change, both on politics AND software. Than you can talk about any of this...

And, happy virus fighting! :-p
Big Brother is watching you!

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