Monday, September 15, 2008

Wine, with a side of Chrome

I know I've already hated on the wine project before, but what the hell, it's fun!


I came across this really wonderful story today, about how CodeWeavers has a wine-based package to run Chrome on Linux.

First of all, isn't Chrome FOSS!? (as in fucking open source software?) Aren't you supposed to port that shit, instead of create a matchsticks-and-glue emulation of a proprietary API just to run an app written for another platform that uses a bunch of open source libraries in the first place? Google totally threw the source over to y'all. Where's the freetard brigade that's supposed to patch it all up and make it run really great on Linux? Oh, right. I forgot. They're busy fighting Shuttle-man about Firefox. Seriously guys. Shuttleworth is some day going to really regret all that money he spent trying to buy you guys a fucking clue.

And secondly, look around wine dudes. Out of all the missing applications on Linux, you decide to spend 11 days working on porting another browser. Sweet. Because THAT's what Linux is missing right now. *

But I shouldn't be surprised right? I mean if y'all had any kind of clue at all, you'd realize that you only really need Wine to support three apps to make a huge dent (and no, one is not Picasa). They are Outlook, Word, and Solitaire (And I don't mean Outlook 2000 ok?). Spider Solitaire for extra credit. Oh, but my bad, that would require some coordination and focus. I've read my own fucking rants long enough that that I know that ain't gonna happen. Keep trying boys, if you want to. I'll just remember to laugh at you again when the virtualization boyz totally beat you to a pulp.



* Which makes me think, aside from games and picasa, what useful apps does wine let me run on Linux for which there is no OSS alternative? uTorrent? FAIL. EAC? FAIL. Nope, I guess it really is all games these days. So much for being productive on Linux.

281 flames:

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Anonymous said...

"what useful apps does wine let me run on Linux for which there is no OSS alternative?"

Personally, I've been waiting for Flash CS3 to work in Linux. Not going to happen any time soon, unfortunately.

Anonymous said...

LH I thought you are a bit more intelligent and realize the amount of effort it would take to fully port Chrome to Linux at this stage. It's not something that'll happen in 11 days like this did.

Also Wine is a extremely complex project, they are basically trying to recreate Windows (and all it's bugs and messiness). That's a huge undertaking and the reason Wine doesn't work so well has nothing to do with any perceived mismanagement but the fact that it's a huge and complex project.

Anonymous said...

The problem with Desktop Linux is pretty obvious to me. Lusers think people should chose an OS based on freedom, when in reality most people just want something that doesn't fucking piss them off. They'll never understand why people aren't using linux when they look past it's flaws for the perceived benefit of freedom that very few people give a shit about.

Personally I'm a mac guy. Most of the serious work done on *nix can be done on a Mac these days. And guess what? I don't have to deal with Gnome or any of that other horseshit that people waste eons of man-hours on.

Honestly, LH, I think you're a lot like me only you've dealt with this bullshit for a lot longer.

Anonymous said...

Freedom isn't free. It costs folks like you and me. And one of these we've got pay that bill. =(

Anonymous said...

Most of the serious work done on *nix can be done on a Mac these days

Sure, like running a cluster of 1000 mac servers, if you can afford it.

Anonymous said...

Anybody read the comments on the Firefox EULA in Ubuntu? Oh man, that's classic. I particularly like the ones about the concerns of the EULA on new users.

Speaking of Ubuntu criticism, I find it funny that people lamblast Ubuntu for being too easy yet the entire purpose of the distro is to be easy. Like complaining that a marathon is too long.

Anonymous said...

"
Speaking of Ubuntu criticism, I find it funny that people lamblast Ubuntu for being too easy yet the entire purpose of the distro is to be easy. Like complaining that a marathon is too long."

That's just lusers trying to feel elite by using shit that barely works and takes hours to setup. They have nothing in their lives to be proud of, such as high paying jobs or functional families, so instead they try and compensate by picking the most obscure and esoteric shit possible to use as an OS.

Anonymous said...

Fortunately the great folks at Linux Genuine Advantage(TM) are making the great user friendliness features Windows users have been accustomed to for years available on Linux.
http://www.linuxgenuineadvantage.org/

That's always been something that has been missing in my life as a Linux user. Now you too can finally enjoy one of the biggest advantages Windows offers, the Genuine Advantage!

Anonymous said...

> I've been waiting for Flash CS3 to work in Linux

flash sucks, all of it's functionality can be repricated using SVG and Javascript..

Anonymous said...

They have nothing in their lives to be proud of, such as high paying jobs

All high paying wintard jobs are going to China/India or are being converted to freetard jobs. Lehman Brothers filed Chapter 11, HP cut 24,000 jobs, Merrill Lynch is swallowed by BoA - expect more job cuts from the merger.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous freetard:

//That's a huge undertaking and the reason Wine doesn't work so well has nothing to do with any perceived mismanagement but the fact that it's a huge and complex project.//

In fact, it's so huge and complex that it's taken eight years ... to suck llama balls. Whee! Go open source!

julian67 said...

"trying to feel elite by using shit that barely works and takes hours to setup. "

No, they've stopped using Windows ;-)

Anonymous said...

Also Wine is a extremely complex project, they are basically trying to recreate Windows (and all it's bugs and messiness).

Why? WHY THE FUCK BOTHER? WHY NOT JUST USE FUCKING WINDOWS?

Wine encompasses everything stupid about Linux.

Anonymous said...

@julian67

Actually, Windows only sucks if you're too much of a wanker to figure out how to properly set it up and secure it ... which takes 3-4 hours, tops. Unless you're a bloody fanny, which you undoubtedly are, Julianna.

anonymous freetard said...

@anonymous wintard

Microsoft got them beat. Windows has taken over 20 years and hundreds of billions of dollars to suck llama balls. That has to be a new world record in economic efficiency.

Anonymous said...

Actually, Windows only sucks if you're too much of a wanker to figure out how to properly set it up and secure it ... which takes 3-4 hours, tops.

You mean it takes 3-4 hours to set up UAC?

Anonymous said...

@anonymous wintard 2

"Why? WHY THE FUCK BOTHER? WHY NOT JUST USE FUCKING WINDOWS?"

Because they don't have to?

Gosh, does using Windows really make people so dumb? It's worse then MTV!

Anonymous said...

Microsoft got them beat. Windows has taken over 20 years and hundreds of billions of dollars to suck llama balls. That has to be a new world record in economic efficiency.

Nothing like a little freetard jealousy to brighten one's day.

Hey, how much is your share of Eazel worth again? Let's not forget: no company focusing at all on Linux on the desktop has ever made a dime in profit. Not a single one.

Anonymous said...

Because they don't have to?

But they do, because Wine is just one, long drawn-out EPIC FAIL.

Check out the top 10 Windows applications guaranteed to work under Wine:

http://appdb.winehq.org/

Silkroad Online 1.x?

Live For Speed S2?

WTF?

All that work so FIVE-YEAR-OLD Windows games can be supported?

Check out that page. YOu will be fascinated by what's missing: ANY PIECE OF USABLE SOFTWARE.

Anonymous said...

What a pointless post.

Google is working on an OS X and Linux version of Chrome. Until then Linux and Mac users can play with it via Wine or CrossOver.

http://www.google.com/chrome/intl/en/linux.html

http://www.google.com/chrome/intl/en/mac.html

Anonymous @ 4:57, Flash CS3 does work on Wine at Bronze level. It was tested with Wine 1.0 but it might work better with the latest version.

Anonymous said...

Bronze? WTF is bronze? All that means is that it loads.

Wine is crap.

anonymous freetard said...

@anonymous wintard

Let me guess, you are another unemployed financial analyst?

It's just find it amazing how a company with so much money and resources can put out such utter shit software that can't even fucking copy a file faster then 1Mbps or stay running without a BSOD for more then a few hours.

Oh I expect the typical Vista pandering to come in effect. "Works for me!", or "Oh, Vista is super fast for me, I have a modest computer with a quad core processor and 16GB RAM". "Microsoft hired a bunch of fucktards to praise Vista in a marketing ad, clearly they are right"

It's just plain amazing I can get a free of charge operating system that kicks the shit out of Vista in just about every single way. I think at this point, if a bunch of former DMV employees and retarded grocey store bagboys come together and write an operating system, it will also kick the shit of Vista. Hell the only thing that can't beat Vista is the Hoover vacuum and that's only at sucking.

ghost of tom watson said...

it appears julian is posting as anonymous freetard.

Remember, a polite society shuns the likes of julian.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous freetard:

//utter shit software that can't even fucking copy a file faster then 1Mbps or stay running without a BSOD for more then a few hours.//

Where the fuck have you been for the last four months? SP1 fixed that, and many other Vista issues. I (and many others) didn't bother with Vista until SP1. Now that SP1 is out (and is installed on all new builds) Vista is pretty damn good.

But you won't believe that, because you read it on the internets that Vista sucks.

I've tried Linux. For five years. It sucks harder than your mom -- which is a great feat.

Anonymous said...

Bronze? WTF is bronze? All that means is that it loads.

It means it loads and runs but has issues that prevent it from being reliable.

Again, it was tested with Wine 1.0, which is sorta old considering that the latest version is 1.1.4.

Try the latest version and see. You'll still likely have to use DLL overrides and a "copy over" installation but the application might function better.

Wine is crap.

You have no credibility. Wine's API is only 64% complete. Lets see you re-implement nearly 32,000 API functions--many of which lack proper documentation.

Anonymous said...

@"It's just find it amazing how a company with so much money and resources can put out such utter shit software that can't even fucking copy a file faster then 1Mbps or stay running without a BSOD for more then a few hours."

99% of the "blue screens" in XP and Vista are caused by shitty or malfunctioning hardware, usually because of overclocking. And since overclocking is one of the favourite hobbies of bored teenage geeks, who also happen to be the largest part of Linux' desktop userbase, I think we might have found the reason why nobody except Linux fanboys ever gets BSOD's in Windows.

Oh, and Linux gets kernel crashes too, mostly for the same reasons, except no freetard is going to brag that his precious Linux crashes more than Vista.

Anonymous said...

oh shit. on that bug report they go as far as comparing the firefox brand to fucking Amarok (the world most unusable mp3 player).

And they could rebrand the browser to have a more IE like icon and name it "Internet Browser"

I think you should add Flash CS3 and Photoshop to that list. But more important, they should name the wine version the software that they support like Wine word edition or something.

Michael said...

It's just find it amazing how a company with so much money and resources can put out such utter shit software that can't even fucking copy a file faster then 1Mbps or stay running without a BSOD for more then a few hours.

Have you actually used Windows since 1995? Those things have been fixed, we have Windows servers that run for months and months without any issues.

Once again, if you know what you're doing it's a fine OS.

Anonymous said...

You have no credibility. Wine's API is only 64% complete.

And the project is only nine years old!

Lets see you re-implement nearly 32,000 API functions--many of which lack proper documentation.

Why the fuck bother reimplementing 32,000 API functions WHEN YOU CAN JUST FUCKING RUN WINDOWS?

Anonymous said...

Bronze? WTF is bronze? All that means is that it loads.

It means it loads and runs but has issues that prevent it from being reliable.


Then what the fuck good is it? Lord, do you actually think about what you're posting?

Wine is the most retarded thing in the luser universe. And that's saying a lot.

noname said...

"flash sucks, all of it's functionality can be repricated using SVG and Javascript.."
wtf kind of response is that? Guy wants to use Flash, freetard replies with "USE SOMETHING ELSE BAWWWWW." what, does flash not fit into your philosophy?

Anonymous said...

"You mean it takes 3-4 hours to set up UAC?"

The only people who make these kinds of uninformed comments have never even used UAC firsthand, only buy into the 'FUD' planed by the freetard community, and fell for Project Mojave.

Anonymous said...

It's just plain amazing I can get a free of charge operating system that kicks the shit out of Vista in just about every single way.

No, what's even more amazing is that you have such an superb OS, and still nobody gives a shit. And even more, nobody gives a shit for ten years. You can't even give it away. Well... THAT's just plain amazing.

Anonymous said...

Every time I think of "Windows fanboy" or "Wintard" I think of that dude with the Swingline from Office Space. Almost every single Windows admin I've ever met looks and acts like that.

Anon E Moose said...

"stay running without a BSOD for more then a few hours"

... That's right, I spend my whole day driving across the countryside rebooting servers every few hours because of random GPFs. :P


Meanwhile, I'm giving Debian (lenny) a try right now, because someone on der interwebs said it was roxxors, or something like that. Installer stops for no apparent reason. I switch to a virtual terminal, and lo: seg fault.

Now, do I blame the software installer that thousands of people have apparently used with success, or do I man up and surmise that there's some hardware issue on my testbox that makes Lenny barf?

If I were using your brain I'd be dropping my pants right now and taking a huge grunt on the installation DVD.

Fortunately I'm a bit more intelligent than anonymous retard.

(looks like the text based install is working. Go figure..)

Anonymous said...

The only people who make these kinds of uninformed comments have never even used UAC firsthand, only buy into the 'FUD' planed by the freetard community, and fell for Project Mojave.

So what else, in addition to enabling UAC, is required to properly set it up and secure it? The post says it takes 3-4 hours, tops. I guess it is learning how to press Continue button on every UAC prompt that takes time...

anonymous freetard said...

No SP1 didn't fix shit. Vista is still a piece of shit. Everyone knows it. That is why Microsoft is in damage control mode.

Thank you Microsoft. I've never seen such amazing promotion for the Linux operating system. I would like to personally thank Microsoft for your hard work making Windows Vista the crappiest operating system to ever exist.

That monstrosity Microsoft is calling "Windows Se7en" will suck so badly it'll be Linux on the desktop overnight, and Microsoft and all it's Wintard fanboys will be tried and executed in the international court of law for crimes against humanity. That's only if it's suck isn't powerful enough to cause a fucking black hole in the middle of Redmond.

Anonymous said...

Linuxhater: respectfully disagree. You have criticised the general state of application quality on linux in the past. In my experience many windows software equivalents have been relatively painless to use.

This in itself is a case for a project like wine. Yes, there are bittorrent clients for linux. In the past none of them were as good as utorrent (infact, they were plain crap), and currently the only one at the moment that I would use over utorrent is ktorrent (maybe). Same with direct connect and many other filesharing clients.

Yes, app development on linux gets there eventually, but in the meantime I appreciate wine in giving me the option to use the apps I prefer.

Other software I have used in the past off the top of my head: comics viewing software, mp3 taggers, pdf viewers, file browsers etc.

Anonymous said...

"That monstrosity Microsoft is calling "Windows Se7en" will suck so badly it'll be Linux on the desktop overnight"

lol

Anonymous said...


No SP1 didn't fix shit. Vista is still a piece of shit. Everyone knows it. That is why Microsoft is in damage control mode.

Is that why Microsoft is setting record profits each year?

I want to be in damage control mode too !

System crash on inserting SD card

Haha.. I didnt know it was so easy to crash linux. Insert an SD card. BOOM. INSTANT CRASH. A 2 year old can crash linux. /laugh


I think Microsoft should teach you guys how to actually write a decent OS.

Anonymous said...

what can I say, this Author is a fucking moron....

personally I'll keep using Firefox either way because I like it.

but this idiots comments on wine are idiotic, he asn't got the slightest clue what he's even talking about.

Typical LH uneducated bullshit....

I guess all that shit in his head has to leak out somewhere though

gigaherz said...

Uhm people... do you realize UAC comes enabled by default? At least on the home versions of Vista.

I have been using Vista for over a year, and the onyl BSOD I ever had was because my GPU was overheating from too much dust.

Yes I have a Core2Duo, overclocked btw. and I had 2gb of RAM (now 6, but hey it's CHEAP).
Sayign that vista is bad because it takes too many resources would be like trying to run the newest game in a 10 year old PC, and complaining because it requires shaders.

It's a new OS. They have new features which use more resources because it's meant to run on new hardware. If they didn't put those features in win95 it was simply because it was unthinkable in the hardware at the time.

I really don't understand why people expect something which is FREE to compete against commercial software, regardless of how "open" it is.

When you add money to the equations, everything runs smoother, it's a fact. Yell, cry or do whatever you want, that wont' change how it works.
No money => no motivation.
No motivation => no good code.

(Statistically speaking. Some people like to work for free, but it's a minority)

anonymous freetard said...

@anonymous wintard

Record profits, but Microsoft's stock is in a 10 year low. The company is doomed for failure because it's run by a moron and filled with moron employees who couldn't get a job at Google. Sad truth.

Microsoft is so terrible at writing software that that piece of shit shut down menu took an entire team of engineers a whole fucking year to implement. Not to mention that their coding is so shitty that even the pointy haired retard managers at Microsoft decided it was time to start over, that's why Vista was like 5 years late. And it's still managed to be a horrific piece of shit. Unbelievable.

They should just contract Google to write their next operating system because there is no fucking way in hell it'll be any good otherwise.

And let me add that you wintards are pathetic, pathetic people. It's amazing how I can predict every single response beforehand. I thought "works for me" was suppose to be a freetard thing, but apparently it's the #1 defense for Vista's retardedness.

atoponce said...

"First of all, isn't Chrome FOSS!? (as in fucking open source software?) Aren't you supposed to port that shit, instead of create a matchsticks-and-glue emulation of a proprietary API just to run an app written for another platform that uses a bunch of open source libraries in the first place? Google totally threw the source over to y'all. Where's the freetard brigade that's supposed to patch it all up and make it run really great on Linux?"

Do you program? By that sentence, I would say not. There are a number of reasons this won't work. First, Chrome was built using the w32 libraries, which don't work on X-based machines. Second, processing is handled different on different operating systems, so handling the process on Windows is entirely different from the process on Linux. Thirdly, and definitely not last, APIs are just that- APIs. They allow you to plug into an existing architecture for a specific platform. What do you want the FOSS community to do, program Chrome on their own for Linux?

I agree with you on the Wine rant, however. The whole purpose of Wine's existence, is to run applications targeted for the Windows platform on Linux. This generally means Office, Photoshop and games. We already have our own solitaire.

Anonymous said...


Record profits, but Microsoft's stock is in a 10 year low. The company is doomed for failure because it's run by a moron and filled with moron employees who couldn't get a job at Google. Sad truth.

Job at Google = spend your day selling shit to people. Amazing. Breathtaking. FUCKING AWESOME.

But hey, I don't judge, whatever pays your bills...


Microsoft is so terrible at writing software that that piece of shit shut down menu took an entire team of engineers a whole fucking year to implement.

Oh yeah, And wine has been at it for 9 years. Still cant get all apps to work. The wonders of free software. AWE INSPIRING PACE of NINE FUCKING YEARS and still behind windows 95.

Whats that? Its because of MS shitty documentation? Haha go on, play the blame game.


Not to mention that their coding is so shitty that even the pointy haired retard managers at Microsoft decided it was time to start over, that's why Vista was like 5 years late. And it's still managed to be a horrific piece of shit. Unbelievable.

Haha. Anything they do they still succeed. Vista is at 17% market share. 2nd most popular OS in the world.



They should just contract Google to write their next operating system because there is no fucking way in hell it'll be any good otherwise.

lol.. Google bastardized Linux and made billions, while no company has made any relevant profit from distributing linux on the desktop.


They care so much about Linux that they chose to release chrome first on Windows.

Anonymous said...

Where's the freetard brigade that's supposed to patch it all up and make it run really great on Linux?

Right here

Anonymous said...

They care so much about Linux that they chose to release chrome first on Windows.

They rushed to wintards so that they could see what the shit IE is.

Anonymous said...

Google bastardized Linux and made billions, while no company has made any relevant profit from distributing linux on the desktop.

You can bastardize it too and make billions for yourself if you have brains. Linux does not care.

Anonymous said...

Please, anybody who yammers on about BSODs hasn't been using Windows in ten to fifteen years. Yes, the system can BSOD still but very rarely. I've seen more crashes across more Linux distros than I have ever seen in Windows. You all know Linux crashes, you only have a fuck ton of bug reports confirming that it does, so quit peddling your bullshit argument.

Anonymous said...

Chrome is being ignored by the savvy Linux crew because it sucks balls [1] AND because people get tired of beta testing a billion dollar corporation's applications without getting paid a fucking dime. Why Google didn't put more effort in to Linux support from the beginning? Because they think that we will do their job for them for free. Fuck that.

[1]
Google is so evil it fucking hurts. A colorful kid friendly logo and some free candy is all it takes to keep the masses blind to their exploitation. Selling my "Analytics" data to their advertisers? EULA revisions be damned, where's my cut you fuckers?
Google = Scientology and you fucking know it. And everyone knows that Scientologists are pedophiles.

Related:
Get a real blog, asshat.

Tr0n said...


First, Chrome was built using the w32 libraries, which don't work on X-based machines. Second, processing is handled different on different operating systems, so handling the process on Windows is entirely different from the process on Linux. Thirdly, and definitely not last, APIs are just that- APIs. They allow you to plug into an existing architecture for a specific platform.

Well, Mozilla implemented their own version of Microsoft's COM technology to help with this. If Google had a similar layer that they wrote the browser on, it would be easy to port it.

Of cource this abstraction comes at a cost. IIRC Mozilla doesn't use native widgets, and builds everything from ground up. They also avoid using "too much" of the win32 api to help with portability.


This reminds me of the AWT/Swing vs. SWT/JFace from a few years ago..

Anonymous said...

And the project is only nine years old!

Umm... try 15 years.

Wine has been chasing a moving target for that long. Microsoft has been adding libraries and functions to the Win32 API for decades. It was only with the release of Vista that .NET become the new primary development platform for Windows, thus pushing aside the Win32 API.

Why the fuck bother reimplementing 32,000 API functions WHEN YOU CAN JUST FUCKING RUN WINDOWS?

Why the fuck not? Wine is almost as old as the Win32 API, which means there was a desire for this from the beginning. Wine could never catch up because of Microsoft's lion share of developers adding to the API and failing to adequately document certain API functions.

Anonymous said...

When you're so far behind and only trailing further and further at some point you should just give up. Reminds me of the people working on React OS which has pretty much failed. If you can't implement a reasonable level of compatibility in a short amount of time then you're forever stuck in the world of the obsolete.

Anonymous said...

I take that back... Wine is even older than the Win32 API.

Wine originally focused on making 16-bit Windows 3.1 applications work on Linux.

Anonymous said...


Wine could never catch up because of Microsoft's lion share of developers adding to the API and failing to adequately document certain API functions.

If they didn't document it adequately, why would anyone even use those API calls?

BTW: I know for a fact that even MS apps (other than the OS) never use undocumented functions.

Anonymous said...

When you're so far behind and only trailing further and further at some point you should just give up. Reminds me of the people working on React OS which has pretty much failed. If you can't implement a reasonable level of compatibility in a short amount of time then you're forever stuck in the world of the obsolete.

Perhaps but that doesn't apply now.

Wine has the opportunity to catch up now that Microsoft is pushing .NET rather than Win32 and has basically stopped developing it much further.

The Win32 API will still be used a decade from now. So its not about to become obsolete anytime soon either.

Wine also re-implements DirectX APIs and translates them to OpenGL equivelents.

Anonymous said...

Wine is almost as old as the Win32 API, which means there was a desire for this from the beginning.

Yes... there never was a shortage of idiots who thought that it would take 6-7 months to implement Win32 API, and make it even better. Talking about overblown egos. I can almost hear them talking: "Look, we're gonna port this Windoze API, cause they are all idiots in M$, and they need like a 10000USD and 100 programmers to make a helloworld.c. So, we're gonna make it in what, 6 weeks. Linux rulez!"
Or, perhaps they always knew that Linux would suck one day, and that a few Windows applications would make it suck less.

How is that Apple didn't come to an idea and wasted a tons of money and time to implement Windows API?

Wine could never catch up because of Microsoft's lion share of developers adding to the API and failing to adequately document certain API functions.

Oh, come on, this is ridiculous. Now it's Microsoft's fault that it takes a decade to reimplement an API?

Anonymous said...

I simply cannot believe the pre-pubescent freetard wankers on this forum that think Microsoft, as a company, will be going bankrupt soon .. as in, the next 50 years.

Keep hope alive, free-wanks.

Anonymous said...

Yes... there never was a shortage of idiots who thought that it would take 6-7 months to implement Win32 API, and make it even better. Talking about overblown egos. I can almost hear them talking: "Look, we're gonna port this Windoze API, cause they are all idiots in M$, and they need like a 10000USD and 100 programmers to make a helloworld.c. So, we're gonna make it in what, 6 weeks. Linux rulez!"
Or, perhaps they always knew that Linux would suck one day, and that a few Windows applications would make it suck less.


Umm... back in 1993 the API was totally different and tiny in comparison. The C Win API is a accumulation of decades of enhancements, new API functions, and also deprecated baggage.

Simply put the Wine vision was achievable back when software was simple.

How is that Apple didn't come to an idea and wasted a tons of money and time to implement Windows API?

Apple originally never wanted their systems Windows compatible. Fuck they used Motorala 680x0 and PowerPC processors for decades. The only option for Windows back then was to use slow-ass CPU emulation.

Their marketshare suffered from it too. Apple never had anywhere close the the 8% PC marketshare they own today. In fact, Apple nearly went bankrupt in the mid to late 90's. Their business was rejuvenated by the media buisness and later by Intel Macs, which are Windows compatible.

BTW, Apple never needed to work on Wine anyway. Mactards ensured that Wine got ported over in the form of Darwin and then later via MacPorts.

Oh, come on, this is ridiculous. Now it's Microsoft's fault that it takes a decade to reimplement an API?

No one is blaming them but that is essentially what happened as a consequence to such a bloated API.

Anonymous said...

err.. I meant Darwine not Darwin. :-P

Anonymous said...

I wonder how long will it take for MS to sue wine devs for reverse engineering the win32 & directx api...

Anonymous said...

"Wine has the opportunity to catch up now that Microsoft is pushing .NET rather than Win32 and has basically stopped developing it much further.

The Win32 API will still be used a decade from now. So its not about to become obsolete anytime soon either."

True, however the project because less appealing when you're essentially using it for legacy applications. People want to run their software while it's still near the current generation. Nobody is screaming to run Photoshop 1.0, Dreamweaver 2, or some other application that is several versions behind. By the time they catch up, assuming that they do, the demand for Win32 applications will be significantly less and the demand for .NET on Linux will be much greater.

Anonymous said...

"I wonder how long will it take for MS to sue wine devs for reverse engineering the win32 & directx api..."

Reverse engineering isn't illegal dumbass.

Tr0n said...


Reverse engineering isn't illegal dumbass.

Actually it is. Read the EULA.

But, I dont know if the Wine Team is reverse engineering. It might be possible to simply implement the win32 api from reading the msdn docs.

Bob said...

I'm a (maybe soon to be former) luser whose ready to go back to Windows over this EULA bullshit.

I'm sorry, but getting your panties in a twist over clicking "I Accept"? Hell, I've had to click "I Accept" in the Windows versions of most so-called FOSS programs as well...WHO CARES?!?

I like Linux, but there days when being among freetards feels even worse than being around Mac fanboys...

Mehrdad said...

Great post! And it was on time! I was thinking about the exact same point since I read it on Slashdot. For the sake of curiosity I set it up on Mac and IT SUCKS MORE THAN I COULD IMAGINE! They even had the source, what's the excuse this time?

The real point is probably SOURCE DOES NOT REALLY BUY YOU ANYTHING, NEITHER DOES FREEDOM! If they ever find out!

Anonymous said...

Google Chrome...is Windows inside, which may be a strategic error
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10041399-16.html?part=rss

Anonymous said...

@anonymous @5:02pm

Also Wine is a extremely complex project, they are basically trying to recreate Windows (and all it's bugs and messiness)

So, you went to Linux to get away from Windows, because Linux is so much better than Windows that you need a (terrible)program to ... try to let you run Windows software.

Ok, that makes perfect sense.

Anonymous said...

@Bob

Welcome back! I've also recently decided to go back to Windows, and the world of working applications.

(I never really left Windows completely, nor has anyone else here. No matter what they say, even the hard-core Linux Zealots know they still have a WinXP partition.)

Anonymous said...

@anonymous freetard

You are just reciting the Linux Zealot party line. Vista SP1 is fine, I run it every day on my laptop and have no problems whatsoever.

My Ubuntu partition, however, still doesn't wake up from sleep mode and is prone to random crashes at shutdown. Wow, all that freedom feels great.

It is just the popular thing for everyone to say "Vista sucks", with most of these people parroting slogans about an OS they haven't even used.

If you remember, people complained about XP when it first came out, now it's lauded for it's stability.

Or you zealots complain that you can't run Vista on your 5 year old machine with 256 Megs of RAM! Some of us live in the 21st century and have modern computers! If you have 2 gigs of RAM, Vista runs perfectly smooth.

Thanks for playing.

Bob said...

@anonymous above me

Don't welcome me back JUST yet...and my XP partition HAS been erased. I'm generally happy with Linux but this freetard mentality of bundling CRAP out of some twisted notion of "purity" has to stop. The first thing I have to do with a fresh Ubuntu install is delete their crap-ass BrokenOffice and download the real thing so I can actually get work done.

Once you add in the step of uninstalling a sub-par browser, I might as well be using Windows and suffering through the registry and weekly defrags and...ugh.

Might as well just face the truth, every OS sucks for one reason or another.

Anonymous said...

Linux isn't free. Their restrictive license agreement won't let me take their code and turn it into patented intellectual property. Ditch that shit, facists. If I want to make money off your hard work I will. Who the fuck are you to take away my freedom? Freedom my ass, it's yet another facist license.

Anonymous said...

That monstrosity Microsoft is calling "Windows Se7en" will suck so badly it'll be Linux on the desktop overnight

You said the same fucking thing when Windows XP was about to be released and included product activation!

Go get a life, lusers.

Anonymous said...

Some of us live in the 21st century and have modern computers!

Uh-huh, Mr. Elitist, try to run it on this 21st century computer, or on this one, or on this one.

Anonymous said...

Which makes me think, aside from games and picasa, what useful apps does wine let me run on Linux for which there is no OSS alternative? uTorrent? FAIL. EAC? FAIL. Nope, I guess it really is all games these days. So much for being productive on Linux.

So the fact that Disney is using Cross Over to run Photoshop has escaped you. Oh right, a large network saving money on licensing costs while allowing their artists the same functionality doesn't fit into the whole 'lets spout a lot of misinformed drivel and hope some of it sticks' shtick you have.

Anonymous said...

You know, we need to port Chrome to Linux. Because Firefox has an EULA and this is baaad. But wait, Chrome also has an EULA. So why is it being ported? I'm so confused. Or is it the freetards who are confused?

Anonymous said...

they talking about a default browser no-brain....

doesn't matter what they make the default firefox and chrome when its done will all be available for download.

The Author really is an idiot if he thinks there's no torrent programs on Linux.

Then again everything else on this Blog is shit leaking out his mouth, guess he has an over abundance of shit for brains

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous

So, you went to Linux to get away from Windows, because Linux is so much better than Windows that you need a (terrible)program to ... try to let you run Windows software.

Ok, that makes perfect sense.


Do you know the difference between a platform (Windows) and single application?

Have you never heard about some (mainly highly proprietary) applications, which are only available on one single platform and not on another?

Seems, like you'd answer both questions with "no".

Bragi said...

Hm... I was able to successfully run uTorrent under wine for quite some time. There is also Transmission available for Linux which is one of the best torrent clients there.

I have been able to dump my all CDs to ogg/mp3 on Ubuntu without a problem using what system provided. What does EAC have that it's so irreplaceable?

I think you should find better exapmles :)

Anonymous said...

I doubt he'd know how to, LH doesn't seem to be exactly a smart person

Anonymous said...

So the fact that Disney is using Cross Over to run Photoshop has escaped you.

Actually, they dropped Crossover three years ago.

Fuckin' lintards.

Anonymous said...

Have you never heard about some (mainly highly proprietary) applications, which are only available on one single platform and not on another?

Have you ever heard about using the best tool for the job, and not sticking to one tool for irrational philosophical reasons? Guess not.

Anonymous said...

Chrome is already being ported to linux... by Google... you just have to build it yourself. Google hasn't packaged it all up yet.

Yes its inconvenient that you have to build it... but that fact that people are trying to run it on wine to begin with means that they didn't even bother to find out that Google does in fact support Linux (if even only to a limited extent and the moment.)

It runs on Mac OS X too.

http://code.google.com/chromium/

http://dev.chromium.org/developers/how-tos/build-instructions-os-x

http://dev.chromium.org/developers/how-tos/build-instructions-linux

http://dev.chromium.org/developers/how-tos/build-instructions-windows

Do your research before wine-ing.

You know what I find even more funny is that people complain about Apple making a new browser and the whole thing with WebKit but Google turns around and builds another browser (built on WebKit) and everyone jumps on it. Chrome is very nice... but it is still beta and Safari stills works better and has more useful features, IMHO.

Anonymous said...

oh yea... and... fuck wine... run windows in a vm if you needs windows apps on linux.

Wine doesn't work for shit for anything meaningful.

And don't tell me you got it to work. So what... that average user simply cannot use wine because it is to broken and requires to much knowledge about how things are done under the hood.

Ryan Ricard said...

Linux is bad because there's no games

Wine is bad because all it has is games.

huh?

Matt said...

Wine (and Linux on the desktop in general) is a flop. I enjoy your rants as they are exactly the frustrations and ineptness that I experienced when using Linux.

I'd add one more app to your list ... iTunes.

nigelht said...

Sure, like running a cluster of 1000 mac servers, if you can afford it.

For 1000 servers the TCO for OSX is likely lower than RHEL or SLES given that most folks are going with Xeon based servers which aren't that much cheaper than the Mac Pro/XServe.

Even using Ubuntu LTS it's still likely cheaper given that the biggest cost in the TCO is paying for admins and not the licensing costs for the OS or the hardware.

Anonymous said...

Chrome is already being ported to linux... by Google... you just have to build it yourself....
http://dev.chromium.org/developers/how-tos/build-instructions-linux"


In BRIGHT RED LETTERS on the top of the quoted page is this:

"Note: There is no working Chromium-based browser on Linux. Although many Chromium submodules build under Linux and a few unit tests pass, all that runs is a command-line "all tests pass" executable."

Fucking Lintards. Do you need to be functionally illiterate to be a Linux user? There's no working version of Chromium -- WHICH, BY THE WAY, IS NOT THE FUCKING SAME AS CHROME -- for Linux yet.

God, you lintards are dumb fucks.

h1d said...

Good to see the old touch coming back from LH.

Yes Wine sucks, it's destined not to be perfect and the target audience is just so small, it's not even worth the effort, especially when Mac users are just booting Windows alongside their OS now.

When they have 100 teams of distro builders, they can't form a single team to do a rewrite of awful OO.o to be someting lighter, more usable and more compatible to MS Office. Oh, they don't know how economy works, so they only can work on what they feel like... great...

Oh and Google isn't really the hero all around when Chrome, does quite an intrusive information gathering (like sending any letter you type in address bar are sent to Google), if they make the next OS, I bet all your information are belong to them before you know what's being sent to them.

Hmm, FOSS movement left the economy model of software development down in the bin (and that is because of noobs who love shouting without thinking to make other people think free = $0), making every good programmer candidate work on some shit free software and lose interest and move on to something else or join the complaining group.

Since when do people work for free? Never. Too bad the word 'free' screwed the software industry up big time, but it's also at the fault of the uneducated bunch who acts before they think.

Anonymous said...

Linux is bad because there's no games

No. It's bad because it's chaos, not a platform. And because of that, it lacks applications, drivers, and generally speaking support from OEMs, ISVs, and IHVs.

Wine is bad because all it has is games.

No, Wine is not bad but its useless and wasted effort because by definition it can't never fully achieve is goals.

Tr0n said...


Chrome is very nice... but it is still beta and Safari stills works better and has more useful features, IMHO.


Like what?

Anonymous said...

Oh, they don't know how economy works

Read the news, economy doesn't work xDD

Anonymous said...

Linux is bad because there's no games

No. It's bad because it's chaos, not a platform. And because of that, it lacks applications, drivers, and generally speaking support from OEMs, ISVs, and IHVs.


Yes. Linux is all that crap. I would say it is a total anarchy. It´s a complete mess. It´s the worst platform for software developmnet. That´s why Google launched their applications first for Windows. See Picasa, Google Earth, Google Desktop and now Chrome. That´s why the freetards needs that other crap called Wine.

Anonymous said...

Actually, they dropped Crossover three years ago.

Fuckin' lintards.


Post a link or it didn't happen.

Fuckin' moron!

Oooh! I can throw out an ad hominem too! Now I'm cool like you, jackass.

Anonymous said...

I seem to think that the zealots defending Linux are all Julian. It makes sense!

IT'S ALL ADDING UP!

Justin Kennedy said...

Freetards and Lusers? Very juvenile guys. Why have I moved from Windows to Linux is simple - I wanted a full featured server in my home. I worked with Level 3 Communication on their proprietary SIP platform that is all Solaris based. While in the military I was intoduced to Irix, VMS and S370 - all 'nix derivitives. When I decided that I wanted to start implementing technology in my home network Linux was the hands down choice. If I wanted to automate NZB downloads, gain VPN access to my files, have emailed SNMP alerts to me for failed hard drives, RAID 5 support, streaming music with on the fly transcoding, and a multitude of other toys Windows just wasn’t going to do it. Sure, for each of these functions there is an outside dongle or device to do it, but guess what??? They run Linux? Why??? Because the GPL license allows them to take an already developed platform and refine it to perfections (Tivo, ring any bells?) and sell it to the masses. Ever wanted a low power file server (less than 20 watts at idle) that also functions as a VPN gateway and print server? Check out D-Link's DNS-323 - yep, runs linux (actually busybox). You guys just missed the point, it's not that I am against windows, it's that it doesnt even do what I need. As far as bashing Ubuntu - good luck. Can it get any easier than apt-get??? Hell, all the dependencies issues you Windows lovers clang to for years are now transparent. Literally, just say you want the software and the database does the rest! Oh, and why would a user want to run an application in Wine?? I have only one reason, I unfortunately keep all my financial records in MS Money since 1996. Funny thing is that with each new MS Money release Microsoft changes they file format, unlike Quicken. So there hasnt been a tool to import my Money information into another tool. If there was then I would abandon Windows completely. Damn shame that WGA now exists, becasue with that scheme MS Money wont run on Wine (it did before WGA). Good luck with your endeavors to sway the masses not to move to Linux. For those that are fed up with endless updates, "unsupported" software, limited tool sets, neutered network support and an absolutely inflexible system they cant help but try Ubuntu. I admit there's a learning curve to enjoy Linux, and maybe it's too steep for you (sorry, had to take a stab - it's too obvious that you haven’t tried Linux). But, after you try Ubuntu (or Debian) and realize that it's just a whole new game it's very fun. Last, why hasnt anyone mentioned stability? How many mission critical systems (alarm monitoring, call setup, routing, etc) do you see on Windows? Everyone I have come across in my Telecom, Military and VSAT experience uses 'Nix. Nortel has UNIX shells on optical long haul, iDirect has Linux on VSAT hub and remotes, Alcatel has Unix shell on all switches, Ciena uses a Unix shell on their optical switches, I can go on and on down to my Linksys wireless router that uses a Linux kernel. Oh, will - not every tool needs a mouse and pretty picture to be useful.

Anonymous said...

The comment that Google launched their apps in Windows is misleading guys. Google, from the ground up and to this day, runs on a Linux cluster. Their apps may be for Windows, but take note. Their back end is 'nix. I give up - like Burger King says, "Have it your way"

Michael said...

@Justin:

Everything you listed can be done in FreeBSD or any other unix. apt-get? Try Nexenta which is an OpenSolaris based distribution.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate GNU tools and the GPL itself, that doesn't mean that Linux is the be all, end all of unix.

Anonymous said...

The comment that Google launched their apps in Windows is misleading guys. Google, from the ground up and to this day, runs on a Linux cluster. Their apps may be for Windows, but take note. Their back end is 'nix. I give up - like Burger King says, "Have it your way"

Sure. As soon as I get myself a cluster at home maybe I'll think about using Linux. As long as I'm interested in desktop applications, I don't see it happeninng.

julian67 said...

"I seem to think that the zealots defending Linux are all Julian. It makes sense!

IT'S ALL ADDING UP!"


Nope, I'm only me. Your adding up is not very good.

I've tried Chrome on XP. I can't see why anyone would want to run it on wine (there are better webkit based browsers for unix/unix-like OSs) but if they want to and they can, so what?

Linux Hater wrote "Which makes me think, aside from games and picasa, what useful apps does wine let me run on Linux for which there is no OSS alternative? uTorrent? FAIL. EAC? FAIL."

When I ran XP as my main OS utorrent and EAC were two applications I thought essential. On switching to a distro it took a little while to find replacements that I'm happy with, so I ran wine for a little while expressly to use EAC and utorrent. They both worked absolutely fine that way, no problems at all (unless you count toggling the ASPI interface in EAC on first run). uTorrent sat in the system tray just like on Windows, was stable, started and shutdown cleanly, speeds were not different as far as I could tell. Maybe more recent versions of utorrent and/or wine are not as good. I wouldn't know, it's been a long time since I used wine.

Ktorrent or Deluge are probably the nicest GUI torrent clients for GNU/Linux. Transmission is OK. If you can read a commented config file and copy and paste then rtorrent is maybe the best overall, even lighter than utorrent. You can schedule it, have it move torrents on completion, choose protocol/handshake encryption and all the usual stuff. It's using a massive 7 MB of RAM on my laptop right now. You can access it locally or remotely with a web browser but screen/screen+ssh is the easier way. Screenie makes screen non-scary for the console-phobic.

EAC is a very impressive piece of software and most PC users who care about getting a good rip will know about its secure mode. But many don't seem to realise that if their optical drive doesn't cache audio data (most modern optical drives don't) then it doesn't have any technical advantage over other rippers. In fact if you do a lot of rips using EAC's secure mode and your drive doesn't cache audio then the only difference you'll experience is that your drive wears out a bit faster. EAC was a real solution to a real problem a few years ago, and it's still probably the best ripper on any OS if you have an older drive, but with a modern drive you might as well use something else, it's going to give the same result (unless you absolutely need an EAC log so you can sleep at night).

I know people will bang on about offsets but other tools on all platforms can do all the same tricks and to be honest I've never listened to a CD and wondered if it might be improved by having the music start playing 20 milliseconds sooner or later.

I'm sure many people find wine essential but for a lot of people it's more like part of a weaning process. Weiner -> weaning -> weknowbest

Thank you for your kind attention and I happily anticipate your well informed, elegantly phrased and heart warming responses.

jc-denton said...

maybe flash works now on linux with chrome, but i guess at least sound will not work

Anon E Moose said...

I can appreciate where you are coming from, Justin, but you're comparing apples to potatoes when you're talking about specialized server setups vs plain old desktop use.

I have yet to find a full featured linux desktop that didn't feel like molasses running downhill. That's a minor annoyance, sure.

But with my new T61 this was going to be the year that I was going to start using it at work full time.
Unfortunately our workorder/inventory system that lives within our email system (First Class), is so teeth-grindingly slow and unreliable in Linux - and we're talking orders of magnitude here and not just a wee bit of lag over the network - that it's just not possible to do my work in anything other than windows.

and running a windows vm inside linux just for that one program is so damned silly that I've just bitten the bullet and accepted Vista.

It all comes down to what-works-for-you. In the end that's not really the slap in the face that people here mean it to be. If something works-for-someone, then bully.


Damn, Julian. I had no idea you could be so civil. ;)
What do you use for a CD-ripper, then? I don't think I saw it listed there.


As for Wine. I only ever used it for WORD/Excel2003. Ran slow, but it was still nicer than OOo.
Though I'd rather have OOo than that fugly-ass Office2007. But companies needlessly reinventing a product that was already complete years ago is another debate.

Anonymous said...

Oh, you're so smart? Did you know that Chrome is based on a rendering engine that was first designed for Konqueror - a linux browser. I can feel the difference, it seems like 3x faster. And anyway what's the problem with you guys? Wine is an extra feature. Now go and download the linux version of Open Office and try running it under Windows. Good luck.

Anonymous said...

Now go and download the linux version of Open Office and try running it under Windows.

That must be the most retarded argument ever. Congratulations!

primefalcon said...

Just try audio cd extractor, pretty light and fast program.

Tr0n said...


Oh, you're so smart? Did you know that Chrome is based on a rendering engine that was first designed for Konqueror - a linux browser.I can feel the difference, it seems like 3x faster.

So? You're DNA is based on a Neanderthal's. I can feel the difference, you seem 3x dumber.


There is more to the browser than the rendering engine. Typical luser retard. Go find the source to your brains and compile it again. use the --21stcenturyman gcc flag when compiling.

Tr0n said...


If I wanted to automate NZB downloads, gain VPN access to my files, have emailed SNMP alerts to me for failed hard drives, RAID 5 support, streaming music with on the fly transcoding, and a multitude of other toys Windows just wasn’t going to do it

Thats it? I guess you're too freaking stupid to figure out how to work Windows.



Hell, all the dependencies issues you Windows lovers clang to for years are now transparent.

Go look up Side by Side assemblies. Its a 100 times more elegant solution than the stupid idea of repositories. Come back when you actually have a clue about what you're ranting.



How many mission critical systems (alarm monitoring, call setup, routing, etc) do you see on Windows?

So let me get this straight, You run a generic linux distro on your DESKTOP because people run mission critical apps using customized linux distributions? This is a new low for luser retards. Brilliant !

Anonymous said...

You know what the biggest problem with whiny Wintards like anon e mouse and Tr0n? They don't seem to realize that for fucks sake some people might actually like Linux over Windows. You know, people who actually used Windows, even "Windows Vista" and didn't like the user experience. I am one of those people. There are A LOT of these people. Zomg I actually prefer Linux as a desktop over Windows, and this is with experience with both, you crybabies. Maybe if you spend less time bitching about Linux and more time using it, you wouldn't so fucking terrible with computers.

Tr0n said...


They don't seem to realize that for fucks sake some people might actually like Linux over Windows.

I make no effort to tell anyone what platform they should use. But don't try to peddle some crap from the Linux desktop world as TheBestWay (tm).



There are A LOT of these people.

0.83% + 0.01% ?


Maybe if you spend less time bitching about Linux and more time using it, you wouldn't so fucking terrible with computers.

I have. Right from the first Slackware release. I know how to get Linux to do anything I want. I've been a parttime linux & windows sysadmin in my college years. I've worked at startups that shipped code on Linux. Thankfully, I now work exclusively with windows tech and it pays very well.


For the vast majority of users, using Linux for desktop use is a stupid idea.

Anonymous said...

Oh yea, cause there is such a great difference between all of those browsers! All of them basically have more or less the same features. All of them display 99.99% of the sites the same way. One of them seems a bit insecure. Apart from that what is it that makes them so different? I really don't care if my bookmarks appear upside down or across or whatever. So the thing that is left is the speed. And this is thanks to webkit engine mostly. You must be pretty busy telling everybody they're retards. For me posting here is a practice of my English, for you a loss of time I guess. Well, enjoy yourself.

Anonymous said...


Apart from that what is it that makes them so different?

Dunno, this thing called Firefox seems to crash a couple of times each week.

But when I tried to use IE7 it didn't crash for a month. Should I be worried? :(

Anonymous said...

I've never had firefox crush just because. I've had some flash movies crush it - equally on Windows and Linux. And the same goes with IE7. Really I don't see much difference between firefox and ie7, besides that the latter has a really hideous interface. Does all the buttons really need to be round or elliptical or of a shape of two intersecting toruses or whatever. I wonder why they haven't made a button in shape of a penis. Lack of confidence perhaps.

Anonymous said...

It's crAsh, not crUsh - isn't it. Pardon me.

Anonymous said...

Really I don't see much difference between firefox and ie7, besides that the latter has a really hideous interface. Does all the buttons really need to be round or elliptical or of a shape of two intersecting toruses or whatever.

Oh, you mean like the new buttons in Firefox 3? fuckin' freetard.

Anonymous said...

"Oh, you mean like the new buttons in Firefox 3?"

Oh, gosh I'm so sorry. It must be quite unpleasant to discover astigmatism this way. I wonder how you recognize your friends faces then.

Ok, that's my last crappy comment, I swear. Nice blog, truly addictive though.

Anon E Moose said...

Gosh, I'm whiny because I make a simple statement that a job-critical program (which comes in a Linux version as well) has a third party module that doesn't work worth a damn in Linux?

You just pulled my name out of your bottom looking for someone to single out, didn't you anonytard?

I suppose if I come from a world where I expect my applications to work, I must be a wintard (or maybe a mactard).

Tell me, how does the world look in black and white? If they're not with you, they're against you: is that how you see it?

I believe I iterated that if it Works-For-You, then bully (which means "good").


Just for shits and giggles I installed wine and then the win32 version of First Class (which is a release ahead of the linux version anyway). Runs perfectly in Wine, save that I can't activate the desktop icons (and therefore my inventory/workorder tracking program). So it fails the test here.

If honest criticism is whining, then I'm guilty.

Now, the biggest problem with Lintards like anonymous, is they're self-important assholes who think they're leet because they can pop a CD into a computer, wiggle the mouse a bit, and ~presto~ Ubuntu appears. :)

Windows has users. Linux has users and, to its eternal detriment, lintard fanboys galore who, I'm sure, the user community must detest as much as a braying donkey in the middle of the night.

By the by. Lenny is doing well on the 3.2GHz P4. I am impressed thus far.

Anonymous said...

"Oh, you mean like the new buttons in Firefox 3?"

Oh, gosh I'm so sorry. It must be quite unpleasant to discover astigmatism this way. I wonder how you recognize your friends faces then.


Typical freetard mentality. Round buttons appear in IE, it's crap from M$. Round buttons appear in FF3, it's the second coming of wonderful interface design.

That .93% market share is well-deserved, Julian.

Anonymous said...

I find all the rants amusing. Here's some questions for the round table of veritable geniuses here.

1) Why is MS absolutely driven to get Windows 7 beta out? It will replace Vista, but Vista is GREAT, so what's the reason?

2) With Vista under OEM price pressure through tentative Linux offerings, and $0 max on the UMPC line, Office basically hitting the $100 mark for all non enterprise, the two big dogs of revenue, do you still believe record profits are going to be the norm?

3) Except the very vocal minority who use PS, what does the vast majority do with their computers? Email and surf. Do you really need to spend 2/3 again as much as the PC itself for an OS to do that?

4) How quickly can MS convert from shrink wrapped (literally, a dying business, MS sees this) to online subscription services and is it fast enough to lock out all the others before OS, Office, etc become true commodity price?

5) What happens to MS (with almost guaranteed revolt from OEMs to office WIndows only) if Windows 7 is as polished as the original Vista (supposition required here, let loose)

6) Does anyone think MS's power is not eroding from the thousands of minor battles it is losing? What does that mean to long term MS?

Anonymous said...

Linux hater, you were funny for about a week.

Get a life. You spend way too much time hating something that in the long run will never amount to a threat to your being an unabashed Microsoft Fanboi.

Why don't you do something constructive, like chasing down Vista bugs and getting in Microsoft's grill to fix them.

Fucking Dooshbag. You're a fucking moron. Enough said.

Anonymous said...

Been Linux in the enterprise since 1999. It's trivially easy now, it was harder at the beginning. Having never had, owned, or used a Windows computer (you gotta love a forward looking enterprise that refused the low entry cost golden lock in handcuff's) for work or play, most of you who think you need Windows for anything (the job, not a specific program) are simply wrong.

I think we are hearing from the entrenched and very scared MS enabled ecosystem here. See, I can OEM any Linux PC (sony's proprietary crap excepted, but it's overpriced for Windows people too) and if you can drive a mouse, you can use it. That scares the hell out of those dependent on Windows and why the rhetoric is constantly being ratcheted up. Fun to watch because the change will mean more money spread to more companies and a healthier economy than the current funnel of funds into few companies.

Anonymous said...

Yet another penguin dance. Welcome !

1) Why is MS absolutely driven to get Windows 7 beta out? It will replace Vista, but Vista is GREAT, so what's the reason?

Thats what software companies do. They write code and ship it. Win 7 is on schedule, Vista was delayed because MS fucked up.


2) With Vista under OEM price pressure through tentative Linux offerings, and $0 max on the UMPC line, Office basically hitting the $100 mark for all non enterprise, the two big dogs of revenue, do you still believe record profits are going to be the norm?

OEM pressure from Linux? /laugh
Haha. Linux has been rejected by the desktop PC market.


3) Except the very vocal minority who use PS, what does the vast majority do with their computers? Email and surf. Do you really need to spend 2/3 again as much as the PC itself for an OS to do that?

Nice Trolling. Nobody goes out and buys the OS. They get it bundled with the PC. Email and surf? Is that only what linux is capable of? Really? Awesome Killer Apps there penguin boy..


4) How quickly can MS convert from shrink wrapped (literally, a dying business, MS sees this) to online subscription services and is it fast enough to lock out all the others before OS, Office, etc become true commodity price?

They arent into shrink wrapped software. They are into software contracts. Contracts with OEM's. Contracts with Enterprises.


5) What happens to MS (with almost guaranteed revolt from OEMs to office WIndows only) if Windows 7 is as polished as the original Vista (supposition required here, let loose)

Vista? 17% Market Share.. What about it? Linux is competing with Windows 95 and Windows 2000. /laugh



6) Does anyone think MS's power is not eroding from the thousands of minor battles it is losing? What does that mean to long term MS?

No, its not.


More ! I want to see more of the penguin dance...

Anonymous said...

@anonymous freetard

//Fucking Dooshbag. You're a fucking moron. //

Well said, with your OOO spellchecker fully operational.

Anonymous said...

Another luser penguin dance.

I think we are hearing from the entrenched and very scared MS enabled ecosystem here.

Um, why would anyone be scared?


and if you can drive a mouse, you can use it. That scares the hell out of those dependent on Windows and why the rhetoric is constantly being ratcheted up.

Wow.. Wasnt the GUI like supposed to do away with the console? Wasnt it supposed to like increase productivity?


I guess when your graphics drivers are crashing and taking down X 5 times every hour you would use the console wouldn't you...

It takes a luser to actually PROMOTE moving away from gains made in GUI/usability in the last 20 years.


Continue with your penguin dance, go join your buddy...

Anonymous said...

"Wow.. Wasnt the GUI like supposed to do away with the console? Wasnt it supposed to like increase productivity?

I guess when your graphics drivers are crashing and taking down X 5 times every hour you would use the console wouldn't you..."

More from the clueless. My parents, sister, brother in law, aunts and uncles, they wouldn't know a console if it came up by accident (I delete the link from the desktop). It truly is the just works Windows wanted to be with zero maintenance.

What crashing graphics driver. I guess reading is beyond you? I can't remember the last time in 11 years that the desktop has locked up.

"Why would anyone be scared"

You can't resell the solutions with impunity at ridiculous margins anymore. Many enterprises are learning that the "enterprise AV" solutions are just very expensive wastes of time as more any single consumer AV. The VERY BEST, catch 80% of threats.

As for MS's business model, it MUST transform from $X for product Y to $x/month for right to use product Y. Their products are under extreme price pressure. They make $10 from any UMPC, how long, again, until large scale OEMs squeeze them on main sales by threatening Linux. MS stock is not one I would purchase until/unless they move from old style retail to monthly subscription.

Anonymous said...


My parents, sister, brother in law, aunts and uncles, they wouldn't know a console if it came up by accident (I delete the link from the desktop). It truly is the just works Windows wanted to be with zero maintenance.

Good for them then.


What crashing graphics driver. I guess reading is beyond you? I can't remember the last time in 11 years that the desktop has locked up.

Yes ! No luser post is without the WorksForMe(TM) argument. I have used linux and I know it doesnt really crash Xorg 5 times every hour. The statement was an exaggeration done for literary effect. Is such a simple thing beyond you?


Anyway, Should I take a peek inside linux forums to see how things are going fucking awesome with nvidia and ati stability? Should I just ignore the sporadic segfaults taking down Xorg on my laptop?



You can't resell the solutions with impunity at ridiculous margins anymore. Many enterprises are learning that the "enterprise AV" solutions are just very expensive wastes of time as more any single consumer AV. The VERY BEST, catch 80% of threats

Linux is not immunue to virii. virii and malware are driven by economic reasons more than anything else. We all know that freetards dont own credit cards since they live in their moms basement. So nothing to keylog or steal from their computer.



They make $10 from any UMPC, how long, again, until large scale OEMs squeeze them on main sales by threatening Linux. MS stock is not one I would purchase until/unless they move from old style retail to monthly subscription.

UMPC is not a major market target for MS. I dont care if they do indeed go down. But it aint happening anytime soon. But just so you know UMPC != PC. The markets dont follow the same pattern. Call me when they start selling (successfully) Linux desktops at bestbuy, target, etc.

Anonymous said...

Nice Trolling. Nobody goes out and buys the OS.

You make my point. People have NO TROUBLE with UMPC OEMed Linux. Dell's Ubuntu, the same. Most simply don't need the extra cost of Windows. Your defense of MS is laughable in the sense that using your words "nobody goes out and buys the OS". That's the problem, give them easy to use, get on the web listen to multimedia, Windows, who cares?

6) Does anyone think MS's power is not eroding from the thousands of minor battles it is losing? What does that mean to long term MS?

No, its not.


Great argument. Let's list all the things MS is not leading, or even really competing in.

Music
Search
Social Web
Online Apps (their live, late, constant change and behind the curve)
Browser war
Instant On Technology (anyone even looking at this?)

Seriously, where is MS leading? Where are they really competing well? Contrast this to 1999, MS told everyone when, where, why, how and WHAT they would use for EVERYTHING. Except for OS and under attack legacy lock in with Office, they are largely irrelevant when it comes to leading.

If MS loses the OEM lock, making it so that Joe Average never sees Linux, they will be left with server sales, where they aren't the monopoly.

Windows 7 is being rushed forward due to Apple, the need to replace XP on UMPCs and try to deliver a must have product. If it doesn't shine, their ability to slowly lose on 100 fronts will take a huge blow.

Anonymous said...

Yes ! No luser post is without the WorksForMe(TM) argument.

If it works, and never fails to work for me and 40+ friends and family members, and over 100 colleagues who have installed my image on the corporate laptop, for years, it becomes relevant. Same with every OEMed Linux. Things don't just randomly break. There is no registry (a really bad idea) to corrupt, no bit rot.

You can't ask an average person using their computer with Windows (XP, I have zero experience with Vista, I don't have anyone I know who uses it) if their computer is working perfectly, and the answer is no. There is ALWAYS something wrong. Great for Geek Squad, and utility makers.

UMPC is not a major market target for MS. I dont care if they do indeed go down.

This may be your most intelligent rebuttal, however, Asus and Acer are projecting sales of 28M units by the end of this year. Toss in Dell, MSI, and all the others, Gartner is predicting that nominally, 10% of all computers sold in 2009 will be UMPC, with the upper limit of 25% possible. MS can't write this market off.

Just today, Dell said the entire market is soft, which may make UMPCs even hotter. If Apple offers a sub $1K notebook (there are rumors they will), HP for one is saying it can be a complete game changer for the industry.

It just doesn't make $200 OSes possible.

Anonymous said...


You can't ask an average person using their computer with Windows (XP, I have zero experience with Vista, I don't have anyone I know who uses it) if their computer is working perfectly, and the answer is no. There is ALWAYS something wrong. Great for Geek Squad, and utility makers.

Your theory is anyone who is not using Windows has their computer working for them perfectly? No? Then quit peddling your crap.

Replace Windows/Computer with Car, TV, Radio, Toaster, Remote, Can Opener and you will get the same response.


Gartner is predicting that nominally, 10% of all computers sold in 2009 will be UMPC, with the upper limit of 25% possible. MS can't write this market off.

Yeah, I'll go read all about that after my orgy with some female swimsuit models..



It just doesn't make $200 OSes possible.

As it has already been pointed out, A small percentage of users actually go out and buy an OS. Most just get it bundled with their PC.

yokozar said...

"I mean if y'all had any kind of clue at all, you'd realize that you only really need Wine to support three apps to make a huge dent (and no, one is not Picasa). They are Outlook, Word, and Solitaire (And I don't mean Outlook 2000 ok?)."

Solitaire was, literally, the very first application to run in Wine.

Outlook and Word 2k3 work, though 2007 still doesn't. They're also the two most heavily worked on applications by Codeweavers' Wine developers, alongside Photoshop, Flash, and iTunes.

Anonymous said...

Except the very vocal minority who use PS, what does the vast majority do with their computers? Email and surf. Do you really need to spend 2/3 again as much as the PC itself for an OS to do that?

Yes, you can use Linux to surf the web... as long as you can get your connection working, manage to install Microsoft fonts, and get Flash to work.

Anonymous said...

Why would you need Microsoft fonts to suft the web?

Anonymous said...

Why would you need Microsoft fonts to suft the web?

To answer that question you could just use your eyes after installing a Linux distro and let them bleed for a while, or ask the freetards about that. Seems to be a very popular topic:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=869262&highlight=microsoft+fonts
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=895061&highlight=microsoft+fonts
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=851988&highlight=microsoft+fonts
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=208396&highlight=microsoft+fonts

Michael said...

Yeah, MS fonts are actually readable. FreeSans isn't too bad as long as anti-aliasing is enabled.

julian67 said...

"Have you actually used Windows since 1995? Those things have been fixed, we have Windows servers that run for months and months without any issues."

Awesome!!!! Dude! OMFG! SomeOtherTeenDumbSpeak!!!

months and months huh?

Anonymous said...

we have Windows servers that run for months and months without any issues.
did you forget to turn them on?

Anonymous said...


did you forget to turn them on?

no we hired people that dont use linux. it looks like using linux rots your brain. finally get got some competent people.

Anonymous said...


months and months huh?

Yeah, We don't need to upgrade the kernel to use a new browser version.

LOL

Anonymous said...

Microsoft is done for, that's why their stock keeps dropping.

Anonymous said...

It just doesn't make $200 OSes possible.

It is, of course, a luser talking point that the OS costs $200.

No OEM pays $200 for an OS. So this, obviously, is a big lie.

Crawl back to your ubuntu forum.

Anonymous said...

Can anyone take a company that fucks up so bad on their flagship product that it gets delayed 5 years? Microsoft sucks at shipping software.

When Ubuntu says they are realizing on Oct 30, they do. The only exception was Dapper which was one month late. And you Wintards who are like "LOL Linux sucks!" are fucking clueless. It's actually very good OS and it's already used by millions of people on the desktop. It's nice you like proprietary and bloated operating systems, but don't spread your shitty software all over us.

Vektuz said...

Well, eventually people will realize that each operating system has a purpose.

Windows is for getting stuff done.
Linux is for fucking with linux. Once you're done tinkering, you can always boot back into windows and get on with stuff.

Anonymous said...

Can anyone take a company that fucks up so bad on their flagship product that it gets delayed 5 years? Microsoft sucks at shipping software.

It appears the world would rather have good software shipping late than crap software shipping on time.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous freetard:

//When Ubuntu says they are realizing on Oct 30, they do. //

Says they're realizing what? That their worthless OS is in need of yet another full-scale release, just to get wifi working?

Freetard. Fail. Frequently.

Anonymous said...

Ohhh Another penguin dance.. or more like shuffle.. Its ok, the more the merrier !


and it's already used by millions of people on the desktop.

Are you confusing millions of distros with millions of users? /laugh.


It's nice you like proprietary and bloated operating systems, but don't spread your shitty software all over us.

Dont worry. You're in luck ! Nobody is going to ship anything remotely relevant on Linux any time soon ! /laugh

Anonymous said...

no we hired people that dont use linux
did they turn them on?

Tr0n said...


Microsoft sucks at shipping software.

Nice Joke. There isn't another company with so many successful, revenue generating products.


Despite what lusers say about MS business ethics, they are no different from any other sufficiently large mega corporation. This isn't to excuse them ofcource, its just to point out that you should take a look at other non-it corporations compared to whom , MS is a saint.

OTOH, Anyone with a working brain can see the huge flaws in the OSS business model. Free software is a ploy that allows developers to tinker and create what they want, but doesn't necessarily help users. The $0 price of the software comes at a huge cost.

Anonymous said...


no we hired people that dont use linux

did they turn them on?

didnt need to... they were already on..

fucking freeturd.

Anonymous said...

i'd suggest you reboot/format them then, it makes the win expirience smoother...
anyway you missed the pun, retard

Anonymous said...

you should take a look at other non-it corporations compared to whom , MS is a saint.
HA! indeed!

on the FOSS model i think it works better for developers/companies than users, but (hopefully) it's benefits will come to the end user... someday

Anonymous said...

When Ubuntu says they are realizing on Oct 30, they do.

Sure, that's the easy part. They just release the crap they have available at the moment. It's not like freetards are gonna notice the difference anyway, and it's not like they released a platform to be supported for thirteen years, like Microsoft does.

I wouldn't consider Ubuntu a glowing success, either. After 4 years of wasting Shuttleworth's money all they've managed to do is to create yet another useless Linux distribution that users still refuse to use. I wonder how long until the big man wakes up and cries enough. After all, he seems to have some brains. Can't say the same for the rest of the so called community.

Anonymous said...

When Ubuntu says they are realizing on Oct 30, they do. The only exception was Dapper which was one month late.

Compare the changes in your average Ubuntu release to the changes in a major revision of Windows.

Compare what portions of the OS Canonical actually maintains to the components maintained by Microsoft.

The bulk of what makes up an Ubuntu release is packaging software that is maintained else where.

Now, compare it to Microsoft who maintains the kernel, the graphics layer, the sound layer, the .net framework, wpf, wic, virtualization (wow, wow32 and wow16), the filesystem, the complete rewrite of the driver interface. And every kernel release brings NT closer to the microkernel/hybrid archetecture it was originally intended to be (from my understand a major part of the rewriting of the driver-interface was that a bunch of drivers were moved out of kernelspace and into userspace (which on one hand is a reason there were driver problems, vendors didn't bother reading the specs/whitepapers, but on the other hand increases stability and reliability) for example. But all the while, work on Windows Seven was already underway when Vista was released, if not earlier. And on top of that, there was work being done on Singularity (MS' micro/exo kernel), at the same time, as well.

For the sake of contrast, how long did it take to get from Linux 2.4 to 2.6? How long it it take to get from xorg 6 to xorg 7? How long between major revisions of Alsa?

FreeBSD team is similar as well, it takes on average about a year, sometimes more between major releases, because they no only maintain the base systems themselves, but won't move anything out of Current until it's ready for production use (and they have much higher standards for this than "well, it loads, barely!". And 8.0 was already underway immediately following the move of 7.0 from Current to Release.

Take a look at Solaris, I don't even remember how long ago Solaris 9 was released, again this is because a lot more work goes into a Solaris release than an Ubuntu release, especially given the optimizations to new Sun hardware and the 10-plus year support cycle on Solaris 10, all the while they're working on Solaris 11 (OpenSolaris is the eventual Solaris 11), while still maintaing v.10.

Hell, IBM does it too, with their hardware, Power 6 isn't even availible yet, and they're working on Power7.

a more fair comparison would have been Debian who's releases are also very, very cf far between, due to their rigorous testing regimen (and all the while, unstable and testing are being developed while stable is maintained)

They used to do that with the Linux kernel, but Linus decided 2.6 was awesome, so they merged the developmemt branch into the stable branch and we have the mess we do today.

That's what sane developers do: They don't release shit until it's ready (Vista being the exception, eventually deadlines kicked in, and they had to finish what they could, and release the rest as is) And dedicated, sane developers are already thinking of what goes into the next release before the current one is even finished.

When was the last time MS, Sun, FreeBSD or IBM releases half-working, pre0alpha software for general consumption? When was the last time this happened in Linuxland? (yesterday) when's the next time it'll happen? (today).

Anonymous said...

it's not like they released a platform to be supported for thirteen years, like Microsoft does.

Sure, Windows 95, 98, Millennium, and 2000 are still supported, right?

Anonymous said...

Sure, Windows 95, 98, Millennium, and 2000 are still supported, right?

I don't know about Win9x and I don't care. The sooner they die, the better. I know that Windows 2000 will be supported until 2010 and that XP will end its extended period support in 2014, while released on 2001. Do the math.

Anonymous said...

Compare the changes in your average Ubuntu release to the changes in a major revision of Windows.

If you do not know what you are doing at the beginning you have to make many more changes later on.

cav said...

i think ppl need to get a life and improve linux!

Anonymous said...


I don't know about Win9x and I don't care. The sooner they die, the better. I know that Windows 2000 will be supported until 2010 and that XP will end its extended period support in 2014, while released on 2001. Do the math.


I just did; 1995+13=2008 1997+13=2010 2000+13=2013, 2001+13=2014. So you just turned a 25% chance into 100%, right? And are you saying that Win9x were not worth the effort? And would you also say the sooner win2k dies the better?

Anonymous said...

I just did; 1995+13=2008 1997+13=2010 2000+13=2013, 2001+13=2014. So you just turned a 25% chance into 100%, right? And are you saying that Win9x were not worth the effort? And would you also say the sooner win2k dies the better?

That's fucking right. Win9x were not operating systems. They were pure crap. I'm no Microsoft lover, just being realistic here.

So Windows 2000 will have nine years support, and XP as I said will be supported for 13 years. If you were more concerned about getting the point (creating a fucking stable platform) than discussing numbers, maybe you would have done it already.

Anonymous said...

at least the problem with the firefox EULA seems fixed.
I suddenly feel more free...

Justin Kennedy said...

I should have my geek license taken away for reading smut like this. It's disgusting how closed minded you ppl are. Dont get me wrong, i aint no free health care hippy loving tree hugger that wants a free society. I certainly have no problem with a company making money. But at it's core Windows lacks the freedom to be tailored for any application. It's a jack of all trades OS, but master of none. Look at the embedded apps and enterprise levels servers. Even Cisco forces people to move from Windows 2000 server to Linux with their new Call Manager 6. I totally agree, with ya'll that MS is a better, or shall i say more ubiquitous, solution for a desktop. That's great for gaming (where one would pop a new video card in every 6 months) or to edit photos with software that updates every 6 weeks. But if I want something with stability, uptime, customization and an endless software library for specific functions then I will look at any 'nix release. It so happens that Ubuntu is the easiest release to accomplish this task. Laugh it up guys. The bottom line is that back in 1999 when I first played with Linux it was a pain in the arse compiling from source, debugging endless config files, and decoding failure messages. The game has changed, make no mistake! Things arent like that anymore. It took less than 3 days to move from my Slackware 11 server to Ubuntu 7.04. And forget about the update failures. My update to 8 worked flawlessly. Hands down if a geeks doesnt mind getting his hands dirty, figuratively speaking, then Linux allows the best toolbox. There are more tools, that initially may look alien, but just like any other master of a craft we all know it's having that specific tool that makes getting the job done easier. Listen as morbidly entertaining as this site may be I do wish ya'll all the best in your 'battle' but truth be told we Lusers simply enjoy the freedom we have in customizing our systems. We're not locked into the MS box of functionality anymore; it's literally limitless in the possibilities. And what's best about this freedom is we have complete control of our destiny. Ask yourself this same question the next time you are handed a spec sheet and offer input to the customer, or when you need a feature from Windows that hasnt been implemented yet? Who's driving now???? We Luser's dont play by the same rules - hence a community of Lusers with a common goal to make our systems better. Probably wont be back to check for flames (although it is entertaining). Feel free to say what ya wil!

Anonymous said...

I love this site. I like Linux but you point out the stuff that drives me crazy about Linux. Their logic makes no sense at all. I have 5 browsers available and instead of working on something like OpenOffice working with .docx they spend time working on a browser.
Please keep up the good work you do help the community and maybe someday some of them will understand what your saying and quit being so damn aloof.

Anonymous said...

Hands down if a geeks doesnt mind getting his hands dirty, figuratively speaking, then Linux allows the best toolbox.

That's why only geeks with lots of free time on their hands bother with Linux. The rest just go on with their lives.

Anonymous said...

1) Why is MS absolutely driven to get Windows 7 beta out? It will replace Vista, but Vista is GREAT, so what's the reason?

Because it's standard practice in software development. Vista was delayed, 7 is on schedule. They were already thinking of what goes into 7 while they were developing Vista. As other Anon poster pointed out, look at IBM, they're working on Power7 long before Power6 even hits the market. MS is already working on Singularity on the side as well.

You don't just release a platform and not bother thinking about what comes next. Hell, with 7 only a year or two away, you can bet that the next version of Windows is already if not in development, then in the conceptualization stage as well.

2) With Vista under OEM price pressure through tentative Linux offerings, and $0 max on the UMPC line, Office basically hitting the $100 mark for all non enterprise, the two big dogs of revenue, do you still believe record profits are going to be the norm?

There's no real pressure coming from OEM Linux. OEM Linux is something OEMs do to pressure Microsoft into cutting deals. No major OEM actually ships Linux on the "front line" or so to speak.

ASUS' much beloved EeePC offers a better spec'ed and better priced Windows XP version. Lenovo recently pulled out of the Linux market. I was recently looking for a Linux notebook from Dell, but had to dig through a seemingly endless array of crap just to find it.

Plus there's the argument the Linux world used for so long, spun around on itself: How many of those Linux OEMs are being whiped upon purchase in order to install Windows?

Insofar as profits are concerned, Microsoft is recording record profits, there's no danger there. You have to keep in mind that Microsoft is in the same position as Walmart, where they can afford to drop prices so low, while still making profits that you can't compete on price. OEM'ed Office drops in price just like OEM Linux does, because not only do OEMs get Windows wholesale, they recoup their investment via the crapware they preload on OEM PCs.

3) Except the very vocal minority who use PS, what does the vast majority do with their computers? Email and surf. Do you really need to spend 2/3 again as much as the PC itself for an OS to do that?

You'd be surprise at what people use their computers for once they realize that they can. The thing is Linux, at this stage, isn't particularly good at much else desktop/workstation-wise as far as the general public is concerned, it won't acomodate the end user's needs should those needs ever expand (and they often do), that's a consideration.

Furthermore, you're assuming that OEM Windows costs the same as shrink-wraped Windows. It doesn't. Again. OEMs buy wholesale, recoup most of their investment via crapware, sell the at a fraction the cost. You aren't spending 2/3rds the cost of a PC on the OS when you buy OEM. That was never the case. Again, look at how little you're saving (if at all) on equivalent OEM systems with Linux instead of Windows.

4) How quickly can MS convert from shrink wrapped (literally, a dying business, MS sees this) to online subscription services and is it fast enough to lock out all the others before OS, Office, etc become true commodity price?

More quickly than you can imagine, considering that was never, at any point, their business model. They're in the OEM business primarily. They got to where they are via OEMs, and they stay there via OEMs. Office and Windows already are commodity price, they have been for a very, very long time. They just cost a lot more shrink-wrapped than OEM'ed. But that's the same in any business, retail costs more than wholesale.

6) Does anyone think MS's power is not eroding from the thousands of minor battles it is losing? What does that mean to long term MS?

That kind of a loaded question. They control 91% of the market. There's no more left to go upwards, 8% of the remaining 9% is Apple territory, with their loyal and dedicated userbase, which isn't really being targeted, and isn't so much of a threat as people like to believe (this coming from a mac guy), while OSx86 is the second largest gainer according to the trends (behind Windows Vista) around 60% of its gains comes at OSxPPC's expense. But Apple and Microsoft do actually work together, bootcamp increases Windows sales, as well as Mac sales, and Office is still profitable on OS X.

Of the remaining 1% there's the HPC market, which Windows is getting into with the help of Cray, the server market, where IIS is soon to catch up to Apache, and the ultra-high end/big iron, which belongs to Sun and IBM exclusively, and was long ago deemed unprofitable for a purely software-based vendor (NT 4 used to run on Sparc, PowerPC and Alpha).

It's reasonable fot Microsoft to dip a little here and there when the control 91% of a market and there's no room left to move upwards, and Antitrust limits the markets they can move into. There are only two directions left to move in, down, or not at all. They'll hover in the 88-91% range.

I'd like to see Apple at least surpass the 10% mark, honestly. But this whole Linux being a threat to MS' dominance is tired and unrealistic. Linux gains market (barely) largely at the expense of Windows 98, ME and to a lesser extend Win2k (which still holds more than double Linux's share of the market), and to an even lesser degree Windows XP (whose losses stem, by vast majority, from Vista adoption). Linux doesn't even compete with Windows NT4 (which on the whole has gained over the past year, most probably due to Nortel still shipping it on their PBXes)

(see Here and Here).

It's pretty funny when you look at the OS version trends. XP's losses match Vista's gains, Linux's gains match "others"' losses, and MacIntel's gains match MacOS and Win2k's combined losses.

Vista's trends of about 1-2% gains per month on average show that the market will likely be split between Vista and XP, if not dominated by Vista by the time 7 is availible.

Great argument. Let's list all the things MS is not leading, or even really competing in.

Music

Antitrust forbids them from making any serious push into this market.

Search

Given. Google has got the (practical) monopoly here. Things should get interesting once more people start realizing this, and Google continues trying to leverage it to make inroads into other markets. If things keep up the way they are, expect the Antitrust bomb to be dropped on Google.

Social Web
They had one of these at one point, not sure what happened to it. But seriously, does the world really need another MySpace or Facebook?

Online Apps (their live, late, constant change and behind the curve)

Their live-line is still largely desktop Apps, it may be the current trend, but will online apps really replace native desktop apps? To a certain degree, for certain applications, maybe, but on a large level? Doubtful. But webpaps and intranet apps still need a backend. AD and Exchange already dominate their respective markets, and IIS is catching up to Apache like it's nobody's business.

Browser war
The "war" ended a long time ago. What we're seeing today is mostly just a skirmish. Explorer still dominates this market by a large margin, and firefox is still some ways behind IE6. (see Here and Here.

Instant On Technology (anyone even looking at this?)

It's built into Vista, see 'Turbo Flash Memory' or whatever they're calling it. (of course, you need said TFB for Vista to take advantage of it).

Wishful thinking aside, Microsoft isn't in any real imminent danger on any front. They've got their bases covered for the most part, and they've got the inertia to keep them going way into the distant future. They're only really limited by the Antitrust regulations which prevent them from entering certain markets.

Anonymous said...

If you were more concerned about getting the point (creating a fucking stable platform) than discussing numbers, maybe you would have done it already.

Short memory? You were the one who started discuss numbers.

Tr0n said...


Ask yourself this same question the next time you are handed a spec sheet and offer input to the customer, or when you need a feature from Windows that hasnt been implemented yet? Who's driving now????

What feature is this? Seriously, what is it? Windows give you complete access to raw hardware in kernel mode.

Or are you confusing "Windows feature" with Libraries? If this is the case then you may have a point. But only barely.

MS has shipped so many libraries and frameworks in tune to the "Developers Developers Developers" mantra that its insane. From graphics & sound api's to UI frameworks, to system frameworks covering a huge amount of use cases. If you truly have looked at everything they offer and found nothing that would help you, lets hear it.

Now you may choose not to pay for say visual studio or whatever it is. Thats certainly a fair point. However when you accuse them of being patently unfriendly to developers you better have real specifics to back that up. Something more than minor nitpicks.

Anonymous said...

Short memory? You were the one who started discuss numbers.

Yeah, and the point was made for anyone with a brain to see.

Anonymous said...

@justinkennedy

//I should have my geek license taken away for reading smut like this. It's disgusting how closed minded you ppl are.//

No, you should have your geek license revoked because you're dumbfuck.

Anonymous said...

"Yes, you can use Linux to surf the web... as long as you can get your connection working, manage to install Microsoft fonts, and get Flash to work."

Take Mandriva CD, place in tray. Reboot computer. Click I agree. Phew, that was hard. Flash, MP3, DVD, .doc, .pdf, .xls, flac, ogg, mpeg, divx, ... I have no MS fonts, things are fine without them. I only have 800 inlcuded truetype fonts to pick from.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, and the point was made for anyone with a brain to see.

You are right, windows is the most stable platform, your point is taken. One still can use GlobalAlloc, GlobalLock, LocalAlloc, LocalLock, DdeConnect and the likes as they could in windows 3.1.

Anonymous said...

Your theory is anyone who is not using Windows has their computer working for them perfectly?

It just doesn't make $200 OSes possible.

As it has already been pointed out, A small percentage of users actually go out and buy an OS. Most just get it bundled with their PC.


100% of the users I support, zero support calls. Once set up, it just doesn't break. I enforce Linux on them because I needed my life back. Every conversation with them was "while I have you on the phone, can you help me get {insert endless list here} working again".

On the OS purchase, how can a group of Windows experts be so obtuse? Dell is the customer, Lenovo is the customer, Sony is the customer, always has been. They are the ones who are balking at being forced to pay 1/2 to 2/3 as much again as the hardware for MS's OS. The end user has never been the focus of MS. It is simply a means to an end to keep the real customers, the OEMs in line.

In 4 years, I have had to walk my Mom through a modem replacement (lightning). The OS simply accepted the new one with zero configuration and the same connection link worked. That's it, my sum total of support calls for 40 users to fix problems. Yes, I have done training and explain how to XYZ, but no more/no less than I ever had with Windows.

So, I will say it again, any average person using Windows has something acting up. OEMed, Linux is again, what Windows always dreamed of, a just works and continues to work proposition.

All the pro MS folks keep falling back on the sometimes tricky install process (like Windows is). For an easy OS, however, MS has truly created some very healthy support/repair/re-install industries.

Anonymous said...

You are right, windows is the most stable platform, your point is taken. One still can use GlobalAlloc, GlobalLock, LocalAlloc, LocalLock, DdeConnect and the likes as they could in windows 3.1.

At least is a platform, freetard. And I can install Firefox 3 on Windows 2000. Try that on Ubuntu 6.06

Anonymous said...

At least is a platform, freetard. And I can install Firefox 3 on Windows 2000. Try that on Ubuntu 6.06

A life time achievement for a wintard. Put it on your resume.

Anonymous said...


So, I will say it again, any average person using Windows has something acting up. OEMed, Linux is again, what Windows always dreamed of, a just works and continues to work proposition.

Really?? 0 support issues? Why don't you point us to an actual workplace example.

Say, 1000 desktop linux clients. Ok.. 500? 50? Lets see something more than luser lies and FUD.

And if you cant manage windows computers you're fucking stupid.

Typical luser worksforme crap nonsense. The only arguments lusers have or will ever have are filled with lies and FUD.

Anonymous said...

A life time achievement for a wintard. Put it on your resume.

Oh, gosh, no. It's nothing special. Everyone can do that. But if you know how the same thing can be done on Dapper, please let these freetards know, since no one has been able to give them an answer:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=847484

Anonymous said...

Yay, another penguin dance. Welcome.


At least is a platform, freetard. And I can install Firefox 3 on Windows 2000. Try that on Ubuntu 6.06

A life time achievement for a wintard. Put it on your resume.

This is fucking hilarious. Upgrading the entire operating system to install a new browser.


Lusers give yourselves a medal. I mean, WOW, how do you manage to fuck things up so badly?


User: Just works?

Luser: Oh yeah, this cd wont do, you need the latest kernel, oh and put that wifi card on craigslist we dont support it, get a new one, its much cooler ..

Ah, and sorry we dont support this ATI card yet, better buy a new one, its fun right? you can play games on linux too.. No, not that one.... uhhhh uhh no, not that one either. Well mostly pacman, and mario... But its cool, you have your own freedom now. Look Look ! I can change the runlevels and just login direct to the console and be ELEET..


More ! More of the famous penguin dance. Julian join your buddy !

Anonymous said...

This is fucking hilarious. Upgrading the entire operating system to install a new browser.

As hilarious as installing outlook 2007 on Windows 2000.

Anonymous said...


This is fucking hilarious. Upgrading the entire operating system to install a new browser.

As hilarious as installing outlook 2007 on Windows 2000.

When you buy office 2007, it says on the box, Windows 2000 isn't supported. Did you try to install it on DOS too? How about on Solaris?


How about when I download Firefox? Is the user supposed to know which version of the kernel and gtk and libstd++ is present on the system?

lusers amuse me to no end.

Anonymous said...

How about when I download Firefox? Is the user supposed to know which version of the kernel and gtk and libstd++ is present on the system?

When you download firefox, you just look at system requirements, click System->About Gnome and compare its version with 2.16. But it is probably hard for wintards to comprehend that things are so plain simple.

Anonymous said...

Really?? 0 support issues? Why don't you point us to an actual workplace example.


Our PCs are wholesale being replaced when off lease with MontaVista linux, hardened by IT. They just work. MontaVista has been used in our overseas office for 3 years, we are being migrated. No Vista, ever, per IT. I assume they will evaluate Windows 7. Managers are the only ones using XP anymore, and that's so they can share their Gant charts. Probably 20% of the 110,000 employees so far converted. We are a big company, with offices in 100_ countries.

In terms of fixing things that break, 0. I have yet to see anyone have to call IT for any failure of anything. Notice though, that how-to was no more/no less than Windows.

And if you cant manage windows computers you're fucking stupid.

It is not needed. I have NEVER, EVER had to re-install Linux. Nobody has complained their MP3 player can't be seen (constant with maybe plays). My parents printer no longer just dissapears every 6 weeks (on average 10 times a year, just gone)

I never said I can't, I said I won't, I took my life and free time back. Across 40 people, probably 200+ times per year, can you help me fix ... back when I supported Windows. Call me a freetard, luser (although luser is not a slam, imho), a masterbating useless communist, it really doesn't change the way things are, and what more and more people are learning.

With Open Source following Moore's law on a 3-6 month cycle and Windows on a minimum 36 month cycle, it's just a matter of time.

Peace dude, go defrag your hard drive or run your registry cleaner, or run your malware scanner, or virus scanner, or let defender do it's thing, zero maintenance for Linux is hard to beat.

Anonymous said...

You're talking out of your ass. I'm in your IT department and we have a slew of problems with MontaVista.

Anonymous said...

I have NEVER, EVER had to re-install Linux.

You're either a fucking liar, or you're being Clintonian here. You probably don't consider installing a new distro over an old one to be "reinstalling linux", which explains how you can attempt such sophistry. But you're still full of shit, douchebag... you most certainly HAVE reinstalled Linux... you simply don't want to be forced to admit it in a public forum...

Anonymous said...

anonymous: zero maintenance for Linux is hard to beat.

Sigh. You know, it would be more interesting, if you fanboy fucktwits would just be honest for once. Most people here have experience using Windows, Linux, and/or OS X. We all know better. All OSes require maintenance. Claiming otherwise is like painting "I am a fucking clueless FOSS fanboy" on your chest. You're not fooling anybody by spouting this pure bullshitor converting , them to the caus3. Go back to Slashdot. Your brain simply isn't big enough.

Anonymous said...

lol another fuckwit who has never used Linux obviously.

Sure no matter what os you use you have to secure your system but what this moronic imbecile above me doesn't get is.

you don't need to defrag at all, in windows that uses a lot of time, in a cooperate enviro time is money, why do you think people are switching over to Linux wholesale.

Windows is a pile of shit security wise, Windows is a pile of shit stability Wise, and you still need to spend tedius house running defrags and malware checks, which you simply don't have to do with Linux.

Go back to your windows and have fun rebooting 10 times a day wintard

Anonymous said...

I run XP SP2 on my desktop for days on end, with no reboots.

I run Vista SP1 on my laptop, it runs perfectly fast and smooth.

I never get blue screens on either. The last time I saw a bluescreen was last year when I had a Mepis32 partition on one of my laptops, dual-booting with Vista. After getting rid of Mepis the problem was never duplicated.)

My Ubuntu partition on my laptop freezes randomly on shutdown and it won't wake from sleep mode properly.

If you're into Linux, that's great, but spreading the same old tired Zealot FUD about Windows is not going to help your cause.

(When the hell did software become a cause?)

Anonymous said...

Looks like Microsuck's "Bill Gates Shakes Dat Ass" commercial series went on a ride on the FAIL BOAT. They canceled that shit, so you Wintards will never be able to watch #3. :(

Winblows.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous Wintard
"September 17, 2008 8:37 PM"

You are a fuckwit you know that? Just because you don't get BSODs doesn't mean everyone doesn't. We don't give a shit about your pandering of a piece of shit operating system.

PS: Vista sucks monkey balls. Poor, poor monkey.

Winblows.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous September 17, 2008 8:57 PM

You really are a sad little troll, aren't you?

It is laughable that you want to challenge someone's intellectual capacity.

You only write this kind of thing online because there's no way you'd speak to people that way in "real life."

Keyboard-warriors like you try to vent your frustrations due to your numerous life's failures, by being internet tough guys.

Why don't you try reading a book, or interacting with society? You'll be a lot better off.

Now, go ahead and fire off your amazing retort to impress the rest of your troll friends (if you have any). Be sure to include all your best invectives.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous wintard

Can you translate that to English? I don't speak crybaby.

Grow some testicles.

Anonymous said...

Hahaha look at all the nerds arguing with each other. How cute.

PS: This was posted from Ubuntu Linux. Best fucking operating system in the world! :D

Anonymous said...

It only takes a long time to defrag if you're too fucking stupid to schedule it frequently. Damn, I haven't had to manually defrag in years and since it's scheduled to run every two days when I'm asleep it's hardly a problem. If you aren't going to bother using the tools provided to you then don't even bother using a computer.

Anonymous said...

We might be dealing with a newly spawned penguin here...


PS: This was posted from Ubuntu Linux. Best fucking operating system in the world! :D

I agree, except if you want to use wifi, a printer, a video card or bluetooth, or run any games. Who needs that... Right? Or, WorksForMe(tm) ??



But you made a good choice! You are truly free. Nobody in the world is going ship their crappy commercial proprietary non free software on Linux.


Have fun running on the the bi-annual ubuntu beta treadmill. Ohh the wonders of free software..

Anonymous said...


Can you translate that to English? I don't speak crybaby.

I dont think you would understand. I dont speak 'FUD'. Maybe the lusers can teach us all.

Anonymous said...

Looks like the Linux bums are in full attendance here, doing what they do best: hype up their useless creation, and FUD the hell out of Windows. This is the story of Linux: it is built on lies and hype.

Way back in 1998, people were predicting Linux will equal or surpass Windows on the desktop by 2003! So, how did Linux do? It managed all of 0.3% usage share by 2003, while Windows staggered in at close to 95%!

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/06/25/so_why_has_linux_failed/

Equal or surpass, indeed! Torvalds said he and his chums will 'crush' Microsoft (purely as a side effect). Didn't Microsoft just announce record annual earnings? If the bums here are to be believed, MS is "running scared". Of what, nobody knows! The little freetard operating system that is split into 927 incompatible variants? //snicker

Anonymous said...

"Sigh. You know, it would be more interesting, if you fanboy fucktwits would just be honest for once."

Then dispel the myth, blow it wide open. I have done zero maintenance, none, in 11 years. I never defrag, never re-install, never investigate slowdowns (it never has). It is a just works proposition (post install, like Windows is for all of you).

List one thing, just one common, well known task that must be done to maintain a Linux distribution. This is a serious question, silence me forever with just one valid maintenance item Linux users have to do.

Automatic updates (the way I set up my users, totally transparent).

Seriously, I tell all my users to forget everything they think is SOP about using a computer. There is no AV, no scans, just use the computer and enjoy.

Seriously, shut me up, name just one thing a Linux user has to do to maintain their computer. I don't think you can, simply because I never, ever do any, and it just keeps working. It's sad that so many things have become the norm. They are MS constructs. AV, malware, registry rot, bit rot.

Anonymous said...

You're either a fucking liar, or you're being Clintonian here. You probably don't consider installing a new distro over an old one to be "reinstalling linux",

Are you seriously that moronic? I find it hard to believe you can pee by yourself and not know it was meant to repair the OS. Yes, I have upgraded, usually on a 2 or 3 year cycle, but since my company has 2 year leases on every laptop, single install, once, then turn it in, get a new one, blank (we lease them OS free, we can install Linux ourselves, Solaris or MontaVista or XP)

Monumental intelligence in the rebuttals everywhere.

Anonymous said...

Damn, I haven't had to manually defrag in years and since it's scheduled to run every two days when I'm asleep it's hardly a problem.

do you leave your laptops working at night?

Anonymous said...

ext4 will include a defrag tool. I wonder what freetards will say then about their magical file systems.

By the way, in Vista disk defragging is automatically scheduled and in runs in low I/O priority. Only freetards would complain about that while wasting their lives trying to make their hardware work.

Anonymous said...

Eyeon used wine to port Fusion (compositing sw) to linux. But they did it in a professional way by actually testing it and customizing it specifically for their application.

http://eyeonline.com/Web/EyeonWeb/Products/fusion5/fusion5_linux.aspx

Michael said...

Doesn't matter to me, I've moved all of my servers to Solaris with
ZFS. Ext3 is quite buggy, I can't tell you the number of servers I've
had to fix with journal errors or corrupted file systems. Good thing
I'm pretty familiar with e2fsck and debugfs.

Anonymous said...

I am an avid Linux user. Debian to be precise. And I have to agree with a lot of this. Wine to me is useless. I don't even have it. The only thing I want that I can't get in Linux is a few games.

Now, this part may shock you, but I actually dual boot with XP for those games! Other than that, for homework or office work Open Office works just fine for me. For burning and ripping cd's I use K3B. I also happen to love Amarok. There is also a Linux version of Winamp.

Not only is Linux catching up, but it is surpassing in many ways. Not the least of which being security. Which it has always been superior in.

All in all though, I don't think people should spend time trying to get Windows programs to work on Linux. They should spend time making programs designed for Linux. After all, they will run faster and more reliably as a native application than they ever can by emulating win API's.

No, I am not what you have been calling a freetard. I don't really give a rat's ass if the program I use is 'free'. If it works, I'll use it. I have paid for programs that work in Linux, and will happily pay for any other such program I may want or need.

Do I prefer free? Yes, but it isn't a pre-requisite for me to use it. Is Windows the worst OS ever? No, it has it's faults. But so does Linux. I just happen to prefer Linux over Windows.

P.S. The advent of DRM and 'Trusted Computing' is one thing that should turn everyone off of Windows. This has nothing to do with the functionality of the OS though.

Michel S. said...

Considering a lot of Google applications tend to come out for Windows first, it's actually quite nice that Crossover is stepping into the gap. It's not just for Linux -- they have a Mac version of Chromium too.

(Speaking of Google and Mac, there's still no Mac client that supports audio chat over Google Talk / Jabber. Whereas there are two Linux clients -- Empathy and the Nokia tablet's chat application. Sometimes, surprisingly, Linux *is* ahead of some other hyped OS)

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