Friday, March 20, 2009

Das Boot

Here's something silly. It seems like y'all are concentrating on boot times these days. Boot in 20 seconds! no, 15 seconds! no 10 seconds! But first, you need to answer me this question:


Why the fuck do I care?

Seriously, when's the last time I cold-booted my desktop? Uhh, a month ago? My laptop? ummm, three weeks ago? Oh, but I really wish I saved 10 seconds back then. I could have gotten a couple extra jerks in this month.

Or, is it that we're moving toward a Linux where the kernel updates every 30 minutes? So, if you want to stay on the train, then you better optimize your rebooting.

Those of you who still think boot time is important, go find your friend with a Mac. Ask them to show you how the desktop is back up even before they finish opening the lid. Ask them how many times a year they explicitly choose "Shutdown". Now multiply that by the number of seconds they could possibly save with a faster boot, and compare that total with the time they could save by not listening to your freetard come-ons.

The sad truth is, boot time hasn't mattered to most of the world's computer population in a long time. S3 sleep solved that problem. Perhaps this is Linux's totally awesome way of solving the same problem by ignoring existing technologies.

Think about your phone. When's the last time it booted? My blackbery takes minutes and minutes to boot, and yet nobody cares. Should RIM spend more time optimizing a process that happens maybe once every 6 months, or work on bettering their battery life, which affects me every day? Hmm, that's a toughie. Let me ask some freetards for some advice.

The only place where boot time kinda matters is for these bolted-on-the-side Linux firmwares like splashtop and such. But even then, who cares if I can get to a crippled desktop in 5 seconds when I could resume my suspended useful OS in just as much time?  Oh, but this is where Linux EXCELS. I mean, it's open source, so you can totally strip out all the features and BLOAT that you don't need, so that you can boot faster.

Hey guys, I have an OS that boots in like a nanosecond. It's called GRUB-OS. It even has a text editor, just hit "e". Pretty sweet huh?

1193 flames:

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Anonymous said...

By the way: IT'S OVER ONE THOUUUUUSAAAAAND!

Anonymous said...

So we have to wait for someone to come with the "next big idea" to get rid of Microsoft's monopoly? What if the "next big idea" comes from Microsoft themselves? Really if Microsoft's monopoly is ever to be eliminated it will only happen through government intervention. And I really hope it does because it will really help the industry in the long run to have a bit of real competition.

Anonymous said...

Remember IBM and Mainframes?

Anonymous said...

IBM never had a monopoly on mainframes. Not even close.

Anonymous said...

So we have to wait for someone to come with the "next big idea" to get rid of Microsoft's monopoly?

Yes, exactly. As we have every time before. Nothing's changed in this "new economy".

What if the "next big idea" comes from Microsoft themselves?

Then they deserve their position at the top. Why penalize the best and brightest? Because we're jealous?

Really if Microsoft's monopoly is ever to be eliminated it will only happen through government intervention.

You guys are all alike, wanting to eliminate Microsoft just for the hell of it, without a single thought about the impact on productivity, economies, or humans themselves.

And I really hope it does because it will really help the industry in the long run to have a bit of real competition.

Where does this "competition" come from? There were plenty of competitors in the past. They all died because they sucked. Even the now mighty Apple barely made it out alive, and Microsoft had nothing to do with their downfall.

Hey, remember how Firefox dropped Internet Explorer's market share from 98% down to about 80%? Ever wonder how that happened? It's because Mozilla made something that didn't suck. Deliberately destroying a market in the name of "competition" doesn't promote innovation, it promotes government mandated mediocrity. Seriously, look at any deregulated industry.

Anonymous said...

The idea I have is to split Microsoft into several companies, similar to what happen to AT&T. Each company would have full copyright rights over all of Microsoft's products and source code.

Anonymous said...

Whoops, I said "deregulated", haha. You know what I meant.

Anonymous said...

Actually that was to be the fate of Microsoft only 8 years ago. Microsoft was ruled by a judge to split into two separate companies, but amid the changing of presidents and 911 crisis they somehow got out of it.

Anonymous said...

The the resulting DoJ sentence was probably one of the most amazing acts of judicial manipulation in the history of the United States. The sentence was never appealed either. It was just "changed" by unknown individuals within the US DoJ. And they did it would even frecking out Slashdot. There was no Pamela Jones around to expose it either.

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Anonymous said...

AT&T is exactly what I had in mind during the discussion, so I'm glad you brought it up. The Bell breakup sucked. It accomplished nothing that a regulated natural monopoly couldn't. Furthermore, the breakup successfully added corporate and legal overhead while arguably damaging innovation with the effective dismantling of Bell Labs. The promised competition in CLECs never happened, not even close. Long distance seemed like it was going okay, but everyone involved was either absorbed by Verison (who is now essentially the reformed Ma Bell) or escaped to the lucrative new mobile market, which would have happened with out without government intervention.

Anonymous said...

Well when you have a Fortune 10 company going against the highest levels of government, it's having people who grew up together and play golf on the weekends policing either other. It doesn't work.

Anonymous said...

The AT&T breakup lowered phone rates almost overnight. It might not have been fair for AT&T's bloated Bell Labs operation, but why should people's phone bill be used to fund a bunch of white beards?

Scott S. said...

"The idea I have is to split Microsoft into several companies, similar to what happen to AT&T. Each company would have full copyright rights over all of Microsoft's products and source code."

And after Microsoft has re-consolidated in a few years time, like AT&T, while its scattered parts have also been acquiring new tech and companies along the way, then what? You'll be right back in the same boat, only with no hope that somehow breaking Microsoft up will be the cure-all for Linux/software woes.

What Linux NEEDS to do in order to survive is get off the "everything has to be open" bandwagon. Let hardware vendors keep their tech to themselves. why should they let every one freely have the stuff they invested tons of time and money in to innovating? Let software companies write and sell software... yes sell, for actual cash. After all, they have programmers who they have to pay, who themselves have families they have to keep fed. Until there is incentive for hardware and software creators to build for Linux, Linux will always be at best a windows 95 clone, although KDE does bling it up a bit. Incentive=Money, Money=Incentive.

In other news, Linux needs to be pared down to a couple of distributions at best, and needs a firm hand at the helm. One system for installing and maintaining software is a must, and changes that break things, just for the sake of changing things has to stop.

Just as a note, the PC I'm using at the moment is running Linux, Kubuntu Flavor (because Ubuntu makes me upchuck with layout disorganization, and Xubuntu is basically a Windows 3.xx port), with Firefox 3.x.x installed as the main browser. I love FF, but in order to get it to run at any kind of speed in K/X/Ubuntu, I decided to try the Wine experiment. I am sad to report to you that FF DOES run faster and more dependably under Wine than it does with the native Linux install. Go figure.

Anonymous said...

AT&T no longer has a monopoly on phone service. And they probably never will. They did before they were broken up. If Microsoft is broken up I doubt they'll ever be able to have the same kind of marketshare ever again.

Anonymous said...

Personally I think it's hopeless for Linux to overtake Microsoft's market share. In fact I wouldn't be surprised that the only reason Microsoft tolerates (and maybe 'serectly' supports) Apple and Linux is to avoid being split up. Once it can be shown that Apple or Linux has no chance whatsoever to outgrow Microsoft, the government gets interested in breaking the company up. In a way, anti-Linux people might be one of the best things to happen to people who want to see Microsoft's monopoly fall.

Anonymous said...

Correction: the AT&T breakup lowered long distance rates overnight. Local rates remained abusive (and do so to this day, with, ironically, the help of the U.S. government).

And guess what? They probably would have dropped long distance prices anyway because

1) The breakup coincided with the upgrade to digital switching. Believe it or not, the old analog switching method really did generate overhead!

2) Rates were prohibitively high. Even though it would have been nice to pocket the extra, pretty much everybody knew higher profits were to be had by getting people on the phone longer at lower rates.

Anonymous said...

AT&T no longer has a monopoly on phone service.

If they find a way to merge with Verison, they'll be much, much bigger than they were even at their peak.

Anonymous said...

In a way, I think it's kinda nice that MS and Apple are the standards of today. Back when I started computing, I had a Commodore64. Thru the years there was also IBM, Amiga, Atari, Altair, etc. It was a bizarro world of computing, and there was no hardware/software interoperability. If you bought a printer, it had to be a PC only or Commodore only or Mac only printer. Same with Monitors and Mice. Computing in the 80's was a very religious affair, and everyone was always fighting about which hardware/OS is the best.

Nowadays most people are on either windows and mac, and instead of fighting, are just sharing ideas/programs/projects with one another. It's not unusual to see windows and/or mac in the same household.

But Linux Desktop is the OS that time forgot. It never made it past the 90's good enough, it has too much baggage from making poor platform decisions along the way. After so many years and watching UNIX and OS2 die a slow death, I had hopes for Linux back in 1999. But sicne then, been disappointed to see that Linux Desktop has not embraced nor listened enough to it's developers enough, nor come with a standard LSB or DE.

Bye Linux desktop and soon bye Linux altogether. You had a chance but after 20yrs blew it. Noone is gonna be left to pickup the pieces, and even if they did,would be futile anyway.

Anonymous said...

Microsoft already has competition. Windows XP vs Windows 7. No, but seriously, they had to make a compelling case to upgrade to newer products, and therefore have improved and innovated. I think maybe we're dealing with an unusual situation that can't really be compared adequately with what's happened in other industries. Then again, what do I know.

Anonymous said...

Microsoft tolerates (and maybe 'serectly' supports) Apple

It's not so secret: Microsoft essentially bailed out Apple in its darkest hour. Superficially, Microsoft had no reason whatsoever to help Apple; they were in their death throes. Apple could have been squashed like a bug.

Anonymous said...

I think maybe we're dealing with an unusual situation that can't really be compared adequately with what's happened in other industries. Then again, what do I know.

Give yourself credit: unlike the usual case, Microsoft is not a natural monopoly. In fact, computer software is far more liquid than telephone, electricity, cable TV, railroads, sewage, etc. I know many claim it is, but natural monopolies really need some sort of resource barrier, which software does not adequately possess.

So, yeah, Microsoft is different.

Anonymous said...

@April 4, 2009 11:29 AM

The AT&T breakup lowered phone rates almost overnight. It might not have been fair for AT&T's bloated Bell Labs operation, but why should people's phone bill be used to fund a bunch of white beards?

Because without Bell Labs there would be no UNIX. (And, subsequently, no Linux.)


"Unix is a computer operating system originally developed in 1969 by a group of AT&T employees at Bell Labs"

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix

Anonymous said...

@April 4, 2009 11:41 AM

Apple is not a "standard" of today there is only one standard: the Microsoft status quo. Apple only exists because Microsoft allows it to, and Microsoft only allows it to because they are trying to avoid being broken up. It's really that simple.

Anonymous said...

Local rates remained abusive (and do so to this day, with, ironically, the help of the U.S. government).

Yeah, you know that $30 you pay to the government just for the privilege of having a phone line? That money goes right back into the AT&Ts. So much for the government sticking up for the little man.

Anonymous said...

Proportionally speaking there is more has been more diamond revenue being produced outside of DeBeers then there is system software being produced outside of Microsoft. And DeBeers is considered such a brutal monopoly. They can't even match Microsoft if they tried.

Anonymous said...

Because without Bell Labs there would be no UNIX. (And, subsequently, no Linux.)

Furthermore, UNIX innovation died hard in the mid-80s. You know, when Bell Labs was being dismantled and all. After that, the new "Bell Labs" was more interested in earning profits through law suits than continuing R&D.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, this is pretty much why I hate Fosstards, if not linux. You guys and your bitching about monopolies.

First, the Microsoft case was thrown out of court because the judge was found to be biased. He did an interview about the case during the case and pretty much stated he was a fosstard. The case was thrown out, rightly so.

Rather than rehash the lawsuit, Microsoft agreed to settle with the DOJ. The major component of that settlement was that the DOJ was allowed to look at Microsofts code to see if there was any bits of code that prevented competitors software from running. I haven't hear a single squeak from the DOJ since the settlement, so those conspiracy theories about Microsoft code turned out to be more fosstard horse shit.

More on fosstard stupidity later to prevent wall of text syndrome, specifically about fosstards, comcast, P2P, and internet caps, and how fosstard stupidity has cost us all.

MaraDNS said...

Microsoft is not a natural monopoly. In fact, computer software is far more liquid than telephone, electricity, cable TV, railroads, sewage, etc. I know many claim it is, but natural monopolies really need some sort of resource barrier, which software does not adequately possess.

I strongly suggest you read a court's findings of fact where it is demonstrated in a court of law that Microsoft is indeed a monopoly.

Anonymous said...

You still haven't explained why people should pay for massive amounts of money towards completely unrelated research through their massively overpriced phone service.

But hey it's so great, lets just have on ISP nationwide too. How about one retailer - Walmart, and one brand of cereal (people don't like choices anyway!), lets have one car available in one color. Fuck it, lets just turn Soviet, because that's basically the end result.

Anonymous said...

DOJ was allowed to look at Microsofts code to see if there was any bits of code that prevented competitors software from running.

What freetards forget is that having a monopoly in of itself is not a crime, according to U.S. law. In order for Microsoft to be guilty of anti-competitive measures at the software level, there must be artificial barriers within the source code. If the DoJ can't find it (and you know they wanted to), then it must not exist.

Anonymous said...

@April 4, 2009 12:07 PM

The artificial barrier is the source code itself. No company can compete with Windows because of it. Like "JoelOnSoftware" said, Excel only beat Lotus when they basically cloned Lotus file format. Now cloning a file format is a bit simpler then cloning and the entire Win32 API. In fact, I don't think there is a single company today that can do that without going bankrupt on the project. Microsoft has too much of a head start. Basically any competition against Microsoft is pretty much impossible.

Anonymous said...

MaraDNS,

Thank you. I am aware of the findings. However, Jackson's ruling was overturned. Therefore, that document, while largely insightful, is legally irrelevant at this point.

Anonymous said...

MaraDNS,

Those findings of fact were thrown out when the case was thrown out because the judge was a biased fosstard.

The DOJ decided to settle with microsoft after the case was thrown out rather than seek a new case. The only major stipulations of the settlement were that Microsoft no longer make exclusive agreements with their Windows partners, and that the DOJ was able to look at their code to see if there were any anti-competitive bits.

I havent heard a thing from the DOJ since then.

Even Microsoft critics admit the EU actions against Microsoft are little more than a governmental shakedown.

Anonymous said...

It was never thrown out. It was just ignored. Microsoft never appealed the ruling.

Anonymous said...

To put it in perspective, it's like someone winning a court case for $10 million dollars, and afterwords giving the $10 million dollars to the entity he won it from, out of the blue. That's basically what happened.

Anonymous said...

@April 4, 2009 12:11 PM

I'm curious to read the opinions of anonymous@April 4, 2009 12:01 PM on "how fosstard stupidity has cost us all" but surely the existence of WINE is among the discussion. The free software guys shot themselves in the feet by showing that, in fact, it is theoretically possible for a third party to pull an Excel over Lotus when it comes to operating systems. That such a thing is impractically expensive is irrelevant as operating systems are a billion dollar industry.

Anonymous said...

It was never thrown out. It was just ignored. Microsoft never appealed the ruling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_antitrust_case

Go down to the Appeal section and see where the case was thrown out. Now some fosstard has added that the finding of fact were not thrown out, but they were. The whole case would need to be tried again. A new case would have a new finding of fact...

Anonymous said...

I would argue that WINE is proof that indeed, it is not possible. WINE has been developed for 15 years, had the support of multiple corporations, and still to this day gets code contributions that rival the Linux kernel in activity. But it still can't run even the most basic of Windows applications. WINE is living proof cloning Win32 is not really all that possible with realistic resources. (Even in the billion dollar range)

Anonymous said...

@April 4, 2009 12:14 PM

What basically happened is that both parties had "dirty hands" and required a mutually beneficial arrangement to save face on both sides. Pretty much everyone, with the exception of freetards, feels the end result was optimum given the circumstances.

Anonymous said...

That sounds like a BS excuse really. The unknown people in the DoJ basically throw away the entire judgment, there was no court case or appeal case to really investigate Microsoft or the circumstances of the previous case. This all happened in a time when most of the country wasn't paying attention either (less then one month after 911), so there was very little reporting of this in the news or any commentary on it.

Anonymous said...

@April 4, 2009 12:16 PM

Keep reading, I am keeping my powder dry to lay down a particulary brutal smack down when the topic comes up;)

Again, it has more to do with the fosstard'o'sphere than linux, and their influence on computing.

Anonymous said...

@April 4, 2009 12:18 PM

Can you please reference the billions of dollars invested in WINE? I am unaware of such investment. Far as I'm aware, Corel provided the bulk of the (adjusted) investment back in the late 90s.

Anonymous said...

There is only one entity that ever had any real influence in the software industry over the past 15 years. As they say everyone is a puppet but only some people can see the strings.

Anonymous said...

Instead of trying to "clone" the Windows API, they could have implemented a documented API. At least software developpers would have known what to target and this would have made Linux a much better software paltform.
Sure Windows Native aps wouldn't have been able to run, but then, Windows Native aps do not run well (if at all) on Wine.

Anonymous said...

And if native Windows apps can't run Linux won't win. This is basically Joel's words translated to Linux vs Windows. You have to remove barriers of entry, and Win32 is a BIG BIG barrier of entry. It's a barrier of entry that Microsoft makes bigger and bigger each Windows release. Microsoft isn't dumb, they know how to do really good lock in.

Anonymous said...

Whatever they do, they can't win: it's too late for them. They made bad technical choice 18 years ago. They also made pretty bad organisational choice, since they had no "project management" skills.

They also made very bad marketing choice: their target were either freetards (not willing to pay) or people unable to pay. If your user base is either unwilling to pay or unable to pay, you will be going nowhere pretty soon.

Finally, there's politics: if you can't sign NDA, if you impose that everything you integrate must be made available as Source, then you are toast.

Apple has implemented two main APIs in its system: Carbon and Cocoa. Last time I checked, the missing WIN32 API doesn't prevent applications to be written for OS X. Developpers porting their apps to OS X also tends to listen to their users/customers, and also pay attention to their applications' UI and integration with the OS.

Anonymous said...

@April 4, 2009 12:37 PM

Almost to the second part of my very brutal fosstard smack down. Keep going and we will be there soon;)

But on your point, I don't want the Windows Movie Maker to work on Linux, I just want a movie editor. As it is, for most people linux can't even play movies without stuttering. Apple never had that problem, in fact, Apple is probably the leader in movie editor software right now. I can't run Apple movie editing software on Windows, BUT I CAN EDIT MOVIES ON WINDOWS.

The barrier is demonstrably not that the WINE is unable to make Windows Movie Maker work on Linux. The barrier is that no movie editing package works on linux because linux can't reliably play movies, let alone edit them.

Your interpretation of Joels piece is demonstrably wrong.

Kharkhalash said...

- The almighty GPU is getting more powerful - I find it difficult to catch up with these developments and I have the specs. Nope, you're not getting them - I'm just gonna sit back and watch you turds flush

Even when they do get the specs, ATI released their specs, and the source for their drivers, the drivers still suck, and ATI/AMD are getting their lunch, dinner and breakfast eaten my NVIDIA and Intel.

Next generation X11 is nothing like current. So many things are radically different. Like the idea of application directly interfacing with kernel by passing X11 completely to render to screen.

So the GUI runs in kernel. Kinda funny how for years, the freetards have been slagging Windows for doing this, since it's such a horrible idea. Cute.

Think of current X11 as Windows 3.11 DIB and the like interfaces. Slow in-effected basically crap. Next generation is basically the jump to Direct X.

DirectX isn't what you seem to think it is (as in, it isn't the Windows analogue of XII). DirectX is more like what OpenGL/SDL/etc are to Unix, or what CoreGraphics is to OS X (as opposed to Quartz, which is the windowing system).

Also, Win3.x used GEM.

Ubuntu and the likes will have to face android and others of the new bread of Linux distributions.

That makes no sense. Why would a distribution targeting the desktop and server (Ubuntu) have to face a distribution aimed for a mobile phone (Android). There's no market overlap there.

Currently you don't dare enable X11 on a production Linux server due to the fact it can screw up interface completely.

This is a new one. Usually the argument against X11 on a server is performance and wasted resources.

PS the next generation Linux distributions will not market as even being Linux.

ell, at least even oiaohm can acknowledge that the Linux brand needs to be abandoned.

Next step is acknowledging that the system itself is in need of being chucked out and started over.

Just like windows 95 did not market as being dos.

That's because Windows 95 wasn't DOS. It was a shell that ran _on top_ of DOS. It may not seem like there's a distinction, but there is.

If your propaganda can convince enough high up government officials that Linux has no chance, the law will drop so hard on Microsoft.

Apparently someone isn't familiar with how the USA v. Microsoft case turned out. MS got what amounts to a free pass.

Further, your conclusion makes no sense, Linux is hopeless, so we need to punish Microsoft? How in the hell does that make sense? It's not their fault Linux is a failure.

The alteration cuts out X11 doing video memory management and 6 other things that were also trying to manage the video card at the same time causing stuff ups. Centralize on 1 item in gets rid of all the problems. So less wrappers and interface crap not more.

You've been listening! Good!

X11 does not become a wrapper as such. Its output to screen just becomes another buffer to be used as you see fit it.

That's not what was being said. The talk of added wrappers was in reference to backward compatibility with X11.

Basically nothing changed other than that now you could decide to display that buffer as a window cut bits out of it and so on.

First you say it'll be radically different, now you say nothing will change? Pick one or the other.

Just like when Direct X take full screen.

Not quite. DWM takes full screen. DWM happens to be a full-screen DirectX surface. That is not the same as DirectX itself taking full-screen.

Not on Linux it can't. KDE is capable of running without X11 on Windows and Mac OS X, and that's because there's no need for KWM, since everything that needs a GUI does so via the native windowing systems.

KDE4 on Linux still requires X11. Unless you're talking about running KDE4 on DirectFB or something, which is a different matter altogether, and nothing new, either. Except there's a reason it never took off.

That is the other major change opengl engines will be able to be built X11 independent.

So what are you on about? First you're rambling on about improvements to X11, now you're talking about abandoning X11 altogether, next you'll be bantering about keeping X11 again.

One or the other. Pick an argument and stick with it FFS.

Here is the thing. The radical change does not mean any X11 application will have to alter anything to remain working.

The applications need to be changed in order to run on the new interface. Or at the very least, the toolkits they're built on need to be changed to support the new interface, and the applications need to be be changed to use those subsets of the improved toolkits.

Otherwise X11 would need to be kept around for the sake of compatibility with legacy c11 apps, or a wrapper would need to be implemented for backward compatibility, and you're back at square 1.

You're right though, you aren't mentioning anything new, just stuff that's been derelict for a decade.

So raw frame-buffer interfaces on Linux become usable.

We've been waiting for that for 10 years, all we got is "OOOH, Lookie, am can have small Tux on FB during bootup!".

Only things that change to is point of view the X11 server and the drivers the X11 server uses

So you're back on about keeping X11 around. You made it all of two paragraphs before changing the argument, must be a new record for you!

PS VMWare crappy opengl driver makes KDE perform even worse in it than on native hardware.

PS. Performance on virtualization is always worse than native performance.

That's why benchmarks are either done native, or all things benchmarked are done in virtualization.

Miguel de Icaza shows a lot of promise, knows how to carry a vision, knows how to deliver, and most importantly isn't completely freetarded.

Agreed. He isn't even the slightest bit freetarded, imo. He realizes how important interop is (and so does Novell, which is why he's on their payroll). Kinda funny how the freetards hate them both so much.

"I had multiple former hippie "vi vs. emacs Microsoft is evil UNIX will rise again" professors during my tenure, which wasn't that long ago."

That's normal. Unix is big in CS, that's why (other than Apple) it's an utter failure on the mass market.

The whole Unix will rise again rhetoric is misguided, as well. Unix never really even fell. Unix still has a stranglehold on the markets it had when Windows took dominance, because Windows didn't rise to dominance by defeating Unix, it rose to dominance by creating a new market entirely. One which Unix did not compete it, essentially resulting in Unix being marginalized and confined to their original markets.

Unix still dominates the Big Iron, because the Unixes are the only systems designed to run on the Big Iron.

Unix still has a relative stranglehold on the high end multimedia workstation market, it's just dominated by Apple instead of SGI (RIP Silicon Graphics :() these days.

Unix still holds a majority of the server market, though Windows is bridging the gap in everything but the highest end market spaces, at an alarming rate.

Unix never "Fell", the market for it was simply marginalized by the consumer market.

Kharkhalash said...

And we've breached the 1,000 comment mark, woot woot!

Anonymous said...

"Why would a distribution targeting the desktop and server (Ubuntu) have to face a distribution aimed for a mobile phone (Android). There's no market overlap there."

Because AllMarketsAreTheSame(TM) in Linux world.

Anonymous said...

We've reached 1,000 and smashed it.

Anonymous said...

Unix still has a stranglehold on the markets it had when Windows took dominance, because Windows didn't rise to dominance by defeating Unix, it rose to dominance by creating a new market entirely.

Thank you! Somebody gets it. This is what I meant when I said the way to "beat Microsoft" is to create a whole new market, like what Microsoft did to UNIX and mainframes.

Yeah, I know. "That can't happen. It's too late." Guess what? It always happens.

MaraDNS said...

Those findings of fact were thrown out when the case was thrown out because the judge was a biased fosstard.

No, the findings of fact were not overturned, but the judge was no longer allowed to oversee the case.

So, yes, the document is still binding.

Anyway, you're engaging in a fallacy. You're saying his arguments are invalid because he is a "fosstard". However, the document has a lot of insightful findings.

Notably, no one has been able to duplicate the Windows API. For there to be real competition, there would need to be several independent implementations of the Windows API and ABI that could reasonably run the majority of Windows software.

IBM tried to do it with OS/2 Warp. They failed. Unlike you I have a reference: Read the findings of fact I linked to.

WINE, yes, has freetard issues but shows the Windows API can not be trivially duplicated. BeOS didn't even try to emulate the Windows API, nor does Apple try to emulate it.

Microsoft Windows' API is a real barrier to entry for another operating system; this has been determined by a court of law. The only reason the case wasn't pursued further is because the Bush administration didn't want to pursue it, not because the DOJ didn't have a case. They did.

Anonymous said...

When I said "UNIX will rise again", I meant they thought some freenix was to take over in the desktop and small server worlds. My professors were largely agnostic as to which freenix, though most of them thought higher of BSD than Linux, but I wager that was due more to academic affiliation and ethnocentrism than any reasoned technical arguments.

These guys were hypocritical. Most didn't even use UNIX anymore and those who did hadn't the slightest on how to accomplish tasks newer than what was around in the 80s. They came to class with their Microsoft Publisher slides prepared with Microsoft Windows 98 and displayed on Microsoft Windows 2000 all the while complaining about how worthless Microsoft was and how it's just a toy that doesn't get real work done, unlike UNIX.

Anonymous said...

When I wrote that "They can't win", I was talking about the Linux Freetards and their software model.

Anonymous said...

And we've breached the 1,000 comment mark, woot woot!

And nothing of value was said.

oiaohm said...

Kharkhalash
Just like when Direct X take full screen.

Not quite. DWM takes full screen. DWM happens to be a full-screen DirectX surface. That is not the same as DirectX itself taking full-screen.


It is kinda the same. KMS managers who has full screen. New X11 system everything writing to screen is writing to a buffer in and KMS decides what buffer is displayed on screen.

Except KMS is a far cleaner system than DWM. KMS only worries itself with what buffer should be displayed.

Framebuffer with X11 under current system caused conflicts both are writing to the same buffers on the video card. Opengl for Framebuffer is a complete different design to old X11 Opengl. Here is the big but under the new system both Opengl can be basically twins only difference is create a window. So opengl is opengl. X11 is X11, Framebuffer is framebuffer and so on. No needs to mess with the others internals. Major reduction in complexity that leads to a major reduction in cpu and memory usage. Yet can be all displayed on the same screen at the same time. This was imposable in the past. In theory you could virtio this new interface to all Linux OS's running contained providing them with almost equal to native video card access.

This would open up the next level were distributions making themselves incompatible with each other would be pointless since end users can run as many as they like and be able to use what ever feature works the best in what ever distributions they like. The crunch is coming. After the up coming changes we will be able to make a call if Linux is dead then.

Yes windows 3.11 had a gem but it has like the X11 problem. Load up a dos program under Windows 3.11 you could screw up your complete video interface. Same stuff up X11 has had. Too many things in the Video control department. You forget the uproar over Windows 95 when it cut off all direct interrupt calls from dos so preventing these kinds of messes. The same is happening to X11. X11 and Framebuffer will no longer need root privileges.

Basically your idea of wrappers Kharkhalash is crap. No wrappers to support X11 were added in the process that allows X11 to be used inside another interface. X11 is downgraded to just another application wishing to use the video card. No special hardware access rights at all. Same with everything else that had special hardware access rights to support video cards.

X11 past user space memory management of video card is more cpu and memory consuming than Gem. Main reason X11 could not trust that its data would still be on video card because some other process could have over written it. Exactly what some dos applications under Windows 3.11 could do due to particular video card operations not being known to Windows 3.11. Dos application was not required to use windows 3.11 GEM.

So why create a wrapper when you can improve the performance of the real item and make it work inside any future designs without any performance hit. Video card is displaying the buffers and joining them up.

So effectively X11 has become its own Wrapper but other things have happened.

X11 is now in a state where it could stay around or disappear completely. opengl, accelerated video output all of them are being disconnected from having major dependence on it. X11 will have to stand or die on its merits not just that it has video card maker support.

Many people here have asked for X11 to be killed off. Very soon you will have your chance to start that process. The Graphical game on Linux will be open all future designs of graphical interfaces could also be used inside X11 due to what has been done. Incompatible between the different video card control systems on Linux will disappear for good.

Before Windows 95 the graphical interface of MS was more a curiosity than something you would use. Windows 3.11 time most key applications are still Dos. After Windows 95 MS focus on desktop starts.

We are entering exactly the same point in Linux. Remember Windows 3.11 was also major configured by manual editing of configuration files after the change in 95 control panel become more functional.

History is repeating. If you went back and asked people when Windows 3.11 out if Windows would be dominate they would have been saying no Dos will stay dominate. That is the problem most of you have.

Open Source development model is not known for being fast. Kharkhalash all these design alterations were decided over 5 years ago. Linux world did listen. Did take onboard. Its just not what you call snappy responder particular when the job is massively complex todo.

With Mono the hate of it comes for the simple fact its binaries are not native does not convert to native well java open source world can convert to native binaries no problems. Finally no clear define on Patent status. If we knew if or if not we had to pay for it most of the Linux world would be happy. It is the lack of clear answers provided is causing problems.

Many key sections of mono have been changed to a License that don't protect from patent attack.

Problem here is most of Open Source is not run by Freetards. Instead Open Source is used to perform joint projects between companies. By using a Open Source license sorts out problems of one side suspecting the other who is sharing development with them of keeping secrets. BSD allows it so all parties expect it. GPL forbids it so all parties working on the project are aware.

Lot of commercial closed source producing companies take part in Open Source. Well managed Open Source projects very much follow simpler development modules are will managed Closed Source projects. Both Open Source and Closed Source project have screw wits taking care of some of there projects at about the same scary percentage. Its about 95+ percent. Those projects over time in open source normally lose there members and die. In closed source company goes under or staff fired and project abandoned. End results are basically the same.

Problem is when its a key stone project like X11 with screw wits in charge. You cannot abandoned it you have to wait for a non screw wit to turn up and take over they then have the long and hard job of repairing all the damage the screw wits caused that takes lots of time. PS Internet Explorer is a great example of a closed source application with screw wits in charge for many years. Many things done to that anyone with a small big of common sence would have seen provided major secuirty holes and problems.

Idea the poor management is a Open Source thing is a joke. Open Source poor management is not hidden in back rooms away from public view.

Anonymous said...

Just checking /., saw that my favorite Freetarded project has finally died screaming - the OpenMoko phone is no more. Funny how a phone that was years behind the curve technologically and couldn't reliably make or receive phone calls never caught on with the general public. No doubt it was murdered by Microsoft, those monsters.

Ahahahaha. And remember, when the iPhone 3G was released, the FSF urged people not to buy the evil proprietary device but instead purchase an OpenMoko device.

You can't spell "Epic Failure" without F-R-E-E. The last week (first Sun, now this) has really shown the value of FOSS to big corporations, hasn't it?

Anonymous said...

Yes but when a free project like Wikipedia kills a proprietary product like Encarta very recently, everyone is all hush hush. And just one of many examples that justify why I call you guys deceptive.

Kharkhalash said...

though most of them thought higher of BSD than Linux, but I wager that was due more to academic affiliation and ethnocentrism than any reasoned technical arguments.

That sounds about right as well, there's an old saying in the BSD camps: Linux is for people who hate Microsoft. BSD is for people who love Unix.

It also makes sense for people in academia to prefer BSD, since it was started by Berkeley.

Yeah, I know. "That can't happen. It's too late." Guess what? It always happens.

Agreed, which I guess is why the freetards lobbied behind the netbook, except the netbook is more of a novelty trinket than a game-changing, industry changing step forward that would supplant the desktop market.

It's not that it won't or can't happen, it's just a lot harder now, the home/office computer has been firmly entrenched in day-to-day life, it's just very difficult to see anything supplanting it.

Microsoft Windows' API is a real barrier to entry for another operating system; this has been determined by a court of law. The only reason the case wasn't pursued further is because the Bush administration didn't want to pursue it, not because the DOJ didn't have a case. They did.

There was an out of court settlement between Microsoft and the DOJ. The terms leave enough loopholes open for it to equate with Microsoft getting a free pass to continue business as usual. MS has held up their end of the bargain, and offered to extend the terms of the settlement after they expired. The ball was, and still remains in the DOJ's court, they haven't done anything with it.

Yes windows 3.11 had a gem but it has like the X11 problem. Load up a dos program under Windows 3.11 you could screw up your complete video interface. Same stuff up X11 has had. Too many things in the Video control department. You forget the uproar over Windows 95 when it cut off all direct interrupt calls from dos so preventing these kinds of messes. The same is happening to X11. X11 and Framebuffer will no longer need root privileges.

So... X11 is almost 15 years late to the party. There's saying for that: "Too little, too late".

Basically your idea of wrappers Kharkhalash is crap.

I'm not the one who brough up wrappers.

No wrappers to support X11 were added in the process that allows X11 to be used inside another interface.


Obviously. I was stating a hypothetical: If X11 were to be replaced, then a a compatibility layer, or wrapper for X11 would need to be implemented to for the sake of backward compatibility with legacy X11 apps.

Obviously, X11 has not been replaced, so there's clearly no need to have put in the effort to manufacture a backward compatibility wrapper.

Also, you'll note that I made it clear that I felt it would be a stupid idea to begin with, since by replacing X11, yet keeping it around for legacy compatibility, you're back at square one.

Congrats, you fail at reading comprehension.

X11 is downgraded to just another application wishing to use the video card.

So, what's X11 running on, then? Is X11 to be run on-top of another windowing system, as is the case with Mac OS X's X11 implementation?

I hope not, 'cause X11 performs like ass on Quartz.

So why create a wrapper when you can improve the performance of the real item and make it work inside any future designs without any performance hit. Video card is displaying the buffers and joining them up.

Again. The wrapper is only necessary X11 is to be replaced with something else, and backward compatibility is not required.

X11 is now in a state where it could stay around or disappear completely. opengl, accelerated video output all of them are being disconnected from having major dependence on it.

OpenGL should have never had a dependency on X11 to begin with. It should have been the other way around (Like on Windows, where DWM depends on DirectX - DirectX's Direct3D being the Windows analogue to OpenGL).

X11 will have to stand or die on its merits not just that it has video card maker support.

Although I agree, device manufacturer support is the game breaker that will decide which system lives and dies.

Many people here have asked for X11 to be killed off. Very soon you will have your chance to start that process

All that's required is a system like Apple's CoreFrameworks or Windows' DirectX. A centralized, integrated, all-emcompassing media framework would go a long way. Except doing this fore video and X11 alone won't be enough. The same needs to be with Audio, and the API/ABI needs to be kept stable.

Of course, the above won't happen until the kernel devs get their heads out of their asses.

Before Windows 95 the graphical interface of MS was more a curiosity than something you would use. Windows 3.11 time most key applications are still Dos.

Pretty much. Though Windows 3.x and 9x were just something to keep the market busy while they got NT into a production-ready state.

They were smart in doing that, instead of just sitting on what they had and letting people get bored, and competition bridge the gap. (Unlike Quark, who let QuarkXPress stagnate long enough for Adobe to unleash InDesign, and take the market by storm, or what MS did with IE6. We both know that Firefox would not have gained the traction it did had IE7 been released earlier).

History is repeating. If you went back and asked people when Windows 3.11 out if Windows would be dominate they would have been saying no Dos will stay dominate. That is the problem most of you have.

That's not really true. I remember those days, and i remember that nobody who had Windows ever really worked in DOS (unless you needed to use a boot disk to run a large application: Memory wasn't abundant back then) anymore. Windows was the future, everyone knew it.

It was the same thing when Win95 came along, only the general reaction similar. Nobody doubted for a minute that Windows was here to stay.

Furthermore, your statement makes no sense. Windows 3.x was nothing more than a window manager for DOS, and everyone knew it.

Open Source development model is not known for being fast. Kharkhalash all these design alterations were decided over 5 years ago. Linux world did listen. Did take onboard. Its just not what you call snappy responder particular when the job is massively complex todo.

It's kinda funny. You'd think the bazaar model would result in quicker development, but alas.

It's true. OSS development, in Linux, at any rate, is slow to implement. Even slower to get to a complete state.

That's why the proprietary solutions are so far ahead of the game, and why the gap is expanding.

The OSS world is still playing catchup at every turn. I mean, look at X11 for fuck's sake, by your own admittance, it's playing catchup with 15 year old tech.

When all of this is over and done, and this new magical X11 is ready, how far ahead of the game do you imagine the rest of the world will be? Linux is a step backwards to anyone not using it right now.

With Mono the hate of it comes for the simple fact its binaries are not native

They're native insofar as Mono is native, and the binaries run native on the mono vm.

It's the same predicament with Java, where binaries are native to the java vm.

Unless you're talking about a JIT, which Mono has. Or byecode compilation, in which case the Mono C# compiler actually predates Mono itself.

That's the first I've heard about this though, usually the complain with Mono is that it's an implementation of .NET, which is a Microsoft tech, and as a result is evil.

Finally no clear define on Patent status. If we knew if or if not we had to pay for it most of the Linux world would be happy. It is the lack of clear answers provided is causing problems.

Well, Mono is controlled by Novell. Novell has a patent immunity agreement with Microsoft. Use Novell, and thjere are no legal issues to worry about. It doesn't get much clearer than that.

If I'm not mistaken, Vector Linux also has such an agreement with Microsoft.

Many key sections of mono have been changed to a License that don't protect from patent attack.

a) Citation needed.
b) No Mono license can prevent Microsoft from suing over patents. Except Microsoft is allowing Novell to use said patented tech, and Novell has expressly pledged idemnificaction to its customers.

Again, go with Novell and you're protected from patents. I don't see where the confusion is.

Problem here is most of Open Source is not run by Freetards. Instead Open Source is used to perform joint projects between companies.

I wasn't aware than OS/2 was open source. (OS/2 was a joint MS/IBM project, remember?). Last I checked Motif was also proprietary (Remember that one, when all the major Unix vendors got together and collaborated on a common, unifying toolkit?).

Problem is when its a key stone project like X11 with screw wits in charge. You cannot abandoned it you have to wait for a non screw wit to turn up and take over they then have the long and hard job of repairing all the damage the screw wits caused that takes lots of time.

I understand that a lot of work has gone into x11 as is, and it would be a shame to just abandon it. But sometimes you need to burn the village to save it, as it were, and start over.

There's a time to move forward and look to the future. Obviously OSS doesn't think this way, which is why X11 is still around.

S Internet Explorer is a great example of a closed source application with screw wits in charge for many years. Many things done to that anyone with a small big of common sence would have seen provided major secuirty holes and problems.

PS, What happened with explorer wasn't a result of poor management, it was a decision, made by Microsoft, because they didn't see a point in continuing to divert manpower to a project which clearly dominated the market and had no competition to worry about. When firefox gained traction, MS returned the manpower diverted away from IE and came out with a much improved IE7 and IE8.

They deemed that it wasn't necessary to keep IE6 updated because it was in no threat of losing its position. It's very much a normal. Quark did the same with XPress, except it backfired.


Idea the poor management is a Open Source thing is a joke

Nobody said that it was exclusive to OSS, only that its a lot more prevalent in OSS. The bazaar development model is very much prone to poor management. Good software requires good management.

That's why the cathedral model is so effective.

Anonymous said...

I don't see any serious competition against Microsoft being realistically possible in the desktop OS market. Give me an example of how realistically that can happen and maybe I will change my mind.

MS has differentiated over the past decade. Remember when they released the whole .Net and C# ? They basically released it as a response to Java. Xbox ? They justed wanted to have a piece of the gaming pie. I mean, the shit a start-up has to wade through to develop the HW and SW to launch something like the Xbox, not mentioning the markting. These guys basically just do it to test the grounds.

Goole is also starting to throw fits like this, launching apps and dropping them when there's no userbase. My guess is that Google is going to attack MS via a huge detour in the following months. They're developing a Native Client framework to run in Chrome (I'm one of the people trying to brake it). From a marketing and competition standpoint this is again pure Google philosophy:
develop an OS in the browser, it doesn't compete with an actual OS and it offers an extreme increase in value. Over the past few months there have been people noting "unknown OS" on their server stats and they came from Google.

Kharkhalash said...


You can't spell "Epic Failure" without F-R-E-E. The last week (first Sun, now this) has really shown the value of FOSS to big corporations, hasn't it?


Except it's funny when OpenMoko dies. But it's saddening when it happens to Sun.

Sun deserved better.

So did SGI, for that matter, but hey, that's what they get for abandoning MIPS and IRIX for Itanic and Linux.

At least there's a $7 Billion payout for Sun.

Yes but when a free project like Wikipedia kills a proprietary product like Encarta very recently, everyone is all hush hush. And just one of many examples that justify why I call you guys deceptive.

Possibly because Encarta is still very much alive and kicking.

Anonymous said...

http://encarta.msn.com/guide_page_FAQ/FAQ.html

Anonymous said...

I must admit, this comment was good:

http://mobile.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1188191&cid=27461149

Anonymous said...

"justify why I call you guys deceptive."

What did I do? I just came here because desktop Linux sucks. I don't care about some encyclopedia. I'm not an eight year old girl doing a report on lizards, or something. Or are you talking about a different Anonymous? If so, you should make that clear.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous is everyone... and noone.

Anonymous said...

Quark did the same with XPress, except it backfired.

Microsoft could take the hit against IE6 because browser wars didn't matter as much and Microsoft arguably didn't directly gain revenue from it. Quark was idiotic because they had one and only one product and let it rot. Their insane-o CEO didn't help matters much, either.

Anonymous said...

Not like Wikipedia is actually any good for research beyond the first sentence: "TopicX is..."

Anonymous said...

Regarding Apple is not a standard,w ell it's not a standard in a sense like MS which is standard in business. But Apple has always created it's own market in education/graphics (90's days), and now with OSX and higher priced niche of today. Apple knows it can't compete with MS on a software only level, so Apple competes as a total package/experience level. This is why Apple products are priced higher, it's because they include hardware as part of the overall package experience. I do remember the dark days, until Apple stopped licensing cloned mac hardware, and then Bill Gates appeared in the big screen dwarfing Jobs, and saying he continued to support Apple by coming out with new software (with the zealot mac fanatics hissing in the crowd). Fact is, Apple and MS are like Yin/Yang, they need each other, sorta like a symbiotic competition.
They push each other to become better, and Bill Gates and Steve Jobs knows that.

For example ipod and iphone. Sure there are other "clones" of it out there, but they don't compare to the overall ease of use and innovation that come with it. Hell I don't even own a mac, but I would LOVE my own iphone, there are a TON of cool apps/games for it out there. If it were me, I would have iphone first, before any other phone because YES I tried it and YES it's really cool.
I also tried WinCE/RIM/Palm, but they don't come close to the iPhone experience (at least to me). So in a sense, Apple created a new niche market, it's own niche standard.

Now with Linux, maybe it should learn from Firefox. It matters not what OS firefox runs on, but rather the features or add-ons that add functionality make firefox appealing.

Perhaps maybe linux desktop shouldn't work as a traditional DE in a sense, but be more firefox or web-based like. Apps become add-ons and changing the working environment should be like changing themes. So no matter if you run XFCE or Gnome or KDE OS theme, a single add-on application will take up the themed look.
All I know is that as-is, Linux cannot compete with OSX or Windows. It should be like GOS or SymphonyOS,where the blur between desktop and web becomes blurred, and the OS itself becomes almost transparent.

Anonymous said...

orry, I meant to say "It should be like GOS or SymphonyOS,where the line between desktop and web becomes blurred".

And again, if Linux gets its crap together and become like gos or symphonyOS, maybe it has a chance at reinventing itself, But I'm not holding my breath :(

Anonymous said...

iPhone is a nice toy, but, for business use, nothing compares to Windows Mobile (especially the turds RIM calls "Blackberry" these days). iPhone scored major points with its (incomplete) Exchange support, however.

There's nothing wrong with this; it's even smart on Apple's part. Making neat consumer toys is what they do best, and they did indeed create new markets with both the iPhone and iPod. But leave the business world to Microsoft; Apple just doesn't understand it.

Anonymous said...

"But leave the business world to Microsoft; Apple just doesn't understand it."

I agree completely. I don't think it would be in Apple's interest to stray from the niche consumer market they created. They seem to be more agile and innovative catering to the consumer, rather than business. The loss to business was evident during the dark days (pre-OSX), when Apple lost market share in both education and graphics to windows.
I certainly can't fathom a world without Apple, just as a world without Windows. I can fathom a world without Linux however :)

Anonymous said...

"I can fathom a world without Linux however :)"

It pretty much looks like today, but just that much better.

Anonymous said...

For those of you that like to relive a little nostalgia, here is the "infamous" Bill Gates video background behind Steve Jobs at Boston Macworld 1997:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEHNrqPkefI

Go to 30:55, where Bill Gates & Company invest $150 million

It's amazing it was 12yrs ago, yet I still remember it yesterday.

MaraDNS said...

Last I checked Motif was also proprietary

It's mostly open source these days. What happened was, once KDE started taking off, Gnome took took the widget toolkit used for Gimp, flushed out the toolkit, and built an entire desktop around it.

By the early 2000s, QT (KDE) was GPL, GTK (Gnome) was a full desktop widget toolkit, and both Gnome and KDE were as advanced, if not more advanced, than Motif+KDE.

So, the open group made Motif available under a mostly open license that wasn't accepted by the Linux community because it wasnt OpenSourceCompliant(TM).

I've looked at Motif; it's a shame it wasn't open source in the mid-1990s; it would have stopped the Gnome/KDE fragmentation and given Linux a five to ten-year lead on development of a desktop environment.

the API/ABI needs to be kept stable.

Of course, the above won't happen until the kernel devs get their heads out of their asses.


and

There's a time to move forward and look to the future. Obviously OSS doesn't think this way, which is why X11 is still around.

The problem with OSS is that they refuse to change things that should change (such as making the default editor something more user-friendly than vi) and change things they really shouldn't change (such as keeping the driver ABI and API stable).

This is why Linux is a fail on the desktop; Linux needs to let go of their "If they want their hardware to work with Linux, they must do things our way or go on the the highway" with third-party dirvers, allow binary-only drivers and make the driver ABI rock-solid stable.

It will be a cold day in hell when this happens, and this is why my desktop no longer uses Linux and I use Windows XP. This is why 95% of desktops use some form of Windows, 4% of deskops use MacOS, and maybe 1% of desktops use Linux.

Until the freetard community can pull their head out of their ass and realize it's Linux's fault it is a desktop fail, Linux will stay in the server back room.

Anonymous said...

http://encarta.msn.com/guide_page_FAQ/FAQ.html

Fair enough. I hadn't heard about Encarta being discontinued ( i haven't used it since circa 1994).

I would think

It should be like GOS or SymphonyOS,where the blur between desktop and web becomes blurred, and the OS itself becomes almost transparent.

Trouble is, Mivcrosoft already did that with ActiveDesktop, way back in the mid/late 90s. It didn't fly.

Though I do think Mezzo on Symphony is neat, and it's fun to be able to write desktop apps in web languages, it's nothing new, and there are some complications.

Mozilla made it clear that they have no intention of pushing Xulrunner as a platform, which is a pity. Firefox has that sort of functionality, but it isn't exactly light on resources nor transparent.

And there's Adobe AIR, which will eat up that market anyway, mostly because Mozcorp refused to see the potential of Xulrunner when it still mattered, and instead of pushing it as a platform, decided to go with prism, which is nothing more than an IE5-style chromeless window.

They'll stick with Firefox/Xulrunner because it's open source, and continue to be irrelevant, because no one cares, and Mozcorp already surrendered that market to Adobe.

It could be interesting to see the SymphonyOS team drop the idea of packaging their own distribution, and instead divert effort to turning Symphony/Mezzo into a development/desktop framework.

Something which incorporates both Mezzo/Symphony and a framework of reusable components, like KDE'sa KParts would be neat, and an interesting project, and certainly a step in the right direction for Linux, except for one problem...

That wouldn't be anything new, either. Apple already does this with Cocoa and Dashcode, and again, there's Adobe Air if you want to go cross platform.

Anonymous said...

"Go to 30:55, where Bill Gates & Company invest $150 million"

LOL for some reason I picture Mark Shuttleworth in the future (or alternate timeline) having to make a similar presentation in front of a crowd of freetards. Just fantasizing.

Kharkhalash said...

http://mobile.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1188191&cid=27461149

Conceded. i hadn't heard about Encarta being discontinued. Though, I'd figure it had more to do with ProQuest (you know, the thing they insist you use at college, that has reliable information that isn't vandalized) than with Wikipedia (you know, the think your proffs expressly tell you not to use, for the opposite reasons they tell you to use ProQuest).

But sure, credit to Wikipedia.

Anonymous said...

Yes but when a free project like Wikipedia kills a proprietary product like Encarta very recently, everyone is all hush hush. And just one of many examples that justify why I call you guys deceptive.

The only deception is you asserting that there was some sort of active competition between the two and that it was wikipedia's "opensourceness" that won it.

Wikipedia is popular because it's open for people to use not because the source code is "free". With it's cathedral style management it hardly resembles floss software.

Encarta became irrelevant because it couldn't keep up to date with wikipedia. Which had nothing to do with whether wiki was closed or open or free.

Kharkhalash said...

Err, fuck, the above quote should be

http://encarta.msn.com/guide_page_FAQ/FAQ.html

Anonymous said...

both Gnome and KDE were as advanced, if not more advanced, than Motif+KDE.

You mean Motif+CDE, right?

Anonymous said...

Encarta lost because its primary audience of high schoolers and liberal arts majors switched to Wikipedia because it dishes out (often incorrect) information faster. Since the students' work has no value anyway, it doesn't matter if the half-assed research derives from Wikipedia, Encarta, or random book flaps from the library.

Joke's on them, though, as Wikipedia's quality has taken a nosedive ever since the administrative cabal ousted the content creators circa 2006. Math and science articles seem largely spared but everything else is meandering trash.

Anonymous said...

I'm not trying to be funny, but the last time I used Wikipedia was to look up information about Starscream. That led to aninteresting article about the F-22 Raptor, though. But that's the type of shit I use Wikipedia for. I notice articles like that usually have a great amount of detail on Wikipedia.

Anonymous said...

I don't use Wikipedia for serious research. I use it for a quick reference.

However, even if Wikipedia was the sole reason Encarta failed it has no bearing on anything regarding desktops. Wikipedia didn't "win" because of technical merits.

Anonymous said...

@April 4, 2009 9:43 PM

Wikipedia used to be great for that kind of stuff. Unfortunately, a lot of it has been deleted due to various WP:ALLCAPS policies that don't make a lot of sense to those who aren't Wiki insiders. Starscream seems to be protected for now, but content in a similar vein wasn't so lucky.

Wikipedia has an identity crisis where they want to abandon what they're best at (detailed trivia about wacky random shit) in lieu of chasing something they don't have a prayer of achieving (presenting itself as a legitimate research aid). In this way the comparison to Linux isn't completely without merit.

Anonymous said...

Wikitards share quite a few traits with freetards:

1) The "community" is comprised of teenage elitist know-it-alls.

2) They claim knowledge of areas in which they have no experience.

3) They have their own version of "Microsoft": sock puppets. Except it's even more hilarious. Instead of Microsoft coercing negative attention from mainstream media, it's TheSockPuppetsFault(TM).

4) While superficially a "community", Wiki admins don't communicate with each other, electing instead to lord over small claims and implicitly agree not to invade each other's turf.

5) They're so embroiled in their internal politics that they have no idea how the real world works. Half their policies seem backwards to casual observers.

6) They expend enormous resources to rewrite the same material over and over but rarely improving.

7) The most minor issues are sure to ignite months long flame wars while major issues get no attention.

8) They haven't grown their audience for years despite intense efforts.

9) They'll stick with some policy or method because it was done before, not because it's a good idea.

10) They WantToBelieve(TM) they're already legitimate despite heavy skepticism from academia, mainstream media, and word of mouth.

Anonymous said...

The simple fact that any asshole can go in there a fuck up the information will forever bar them from being considered legit.

However, if you want to use them for academic research you can always read the articles/papers in the Wikipedia article's citation section.

Anonymous said...

"Encarta vs. Wikipedia"? I don't know you guys, but on the webpage of IE8 (US, Italy, and maybe all the countries) it clearly supports Wikipedia visual search.

Prticularly, the italian page clearly states that you should optimize your searches with Wikipedia.

Also, Encarta and Wikipedia are two completely different things, like stated above, where the fuck do you freetards see any competition?

Anonymous said...

I don't like taking things to the extreme. Linux has its place. Just not on desktops. I certainly know that I don't want it near my notebook ever again.

oiaohm said...

Kharkhalash Simple thing here. X11 sort out takes lots of man hours to get on top of.

No wrapper to old X11 api is need because X11 has been isolated. There are projects like wayback what is a X11 server with all its backwards compatibility stuff cut away leaving only the new system. Since interfaces servers don't need to support X11 they are free to go there own way. Anything needing X11 support run X11 for it.

This is not a wrapper solution its a containment solution. Disadvantage of wrapper solution is cross taint. Modern design mixed with old. So old system cannot be deprecated and killed off. Design alteration about X11 is about allowing it to be fully killed off if different solution is chosen.

The current alterations are not a plan to keep X11 around for ever. More update free future paths and see what comes.

Audio has problems but is not the current focus. Audio interfaces are fairly much pointless if graphical don't work.

Audio is in the same problem as X11 was lack of a good maintainer to clean it up. Focus will shift once visual interface side is sorted out.

Anonymous said...

WillBeFixedEventuall(TM)
JustAroundTheCorner(TM)

oiaohm said...

Simple fact is smart alec. There is a order things have to be done in.

Video stack sort out allows GPU to be used for video decoding and audio decoding even using the direct video card audio out.

Next after that is sync between audio and video. So forcing audio stack sort out.

Its simple orders of things. Video is required first to be working because the chip for accelerating decoding of stuff is in that device.

Anonymous said...

Wikipedia is one of the most successful spawns of the freetard community. It's up there with Firefox, maybe even more successful then Firefox. And yes it's pretty obvious Encarta became pretty much pointless after Wikipedia arrived. So I'll chalk this up as +1 open source, -1 proprietary software

Sorry folks!

Anonymous said...

Microsoft's next announcement (pre-release):

Internet Explorer has been a popular product around the world for many years. However, the category of traditional web browsers and spyware downloaders has changed. People today seek and consume information on considerably different web browsers than in years past. As part of Microsoft’s goal to deliver the most effective and engaging resources for today’s consumer, it has made the decision to exit the Internet Explorer business.
Microsoft's vision is that everyone around the world needs to have access to quality web browser. In doing so, we feel strongly that we are making the right investments that will help make our vision a reality.

Anonymous said...

Its simple orders of things. Video is required first to be working because the chip for accelerating decoding of stuff is in that device.


Yes, that's nice, but please test it this time before releasing. And running a teapot on 5 year old hardware doesn't really count as "debugging" in GPU-world.

Anonymous said...

That's the first I've heard about this though, usually the complain with Mono is that it's an implementation of .NET, which is a Microsoft tech, and as a result is evil.

Wait, so a free implementation of .NET (Mono) is "evil", but a free implementation of Win32 (WINE) is the best thing to ever happen and is the go-to solution for "Linux doesn't have [App X], but I need it "?

Let's hear it for freetarded hypocrisy!

Anonymous said...

Yeah as a pro-Linux user, I have to say hatred for Mono is fucked up shit. Mono brings some awesome RAD development possibilities to Linux, as well as compatibility with some Windows applications.

But anyway to respond to why Mono is hatred and Wine isn't as much, I think the big reason is fact that Mono is mostly written by Novell. Also Mono advertises itself more as a development environment then a compatibility layer, so the "evil MS tech" isn't just "for the sake of legacy software support", or whatever.

Anonymous said...

Fine, have the "Win" of open-source vs. Encarta. The real issue here is that the captcha says "hogrep", isn't that a Linux command for finding bitches?

Anonymous said...

Why on Earth do all Linux distros come with libaa? Is that some kind of joke?

Anonymous said...

"It could be interesting to see the SymphonyOS team drop the idea of packaging their own distribution, and instead divert effort to turning Symphony"

Yes that's closer to what I had in mind, not like active x, but something like client/server/adobe air/reuseble widgets/gadgets.

I think all the existing DE should instead be supplanted by something like Adobe AIR or similar. I mean if you make an AIR like app in windows, and it also work on Linux on AIR, that's one less barrier since you still have the same app/functionality.

Anonymous said...

Its simple orders of things. Video is required first to be working because the chip for accelerating decoding of stuff is in that device.

You seem completely unaffected by simple facts.

1. As with most lintard claims these changes are no where near completed and who really knows if they are even being worked on or have been agreed upon.

2. There is no evidence that if the lintards attempt to do it that it will work as intended or ever really be completed to a stable state.

3. In fact in the case of the audio stack there is actually ample evidence that the lintards will just create a cluster fuck.

And yet here you are talking about things that are JustAroundTheCorner(TM) that will fix everything.

It's almost as if you could be talking 10 years ago, right now or 10 years from now. The common thread is that you never talk about the cool shit that is stable now and a better alternative.

Which brings up an interesting chicken and egg problem. Are you delusional because you keep saying those things? Or do you keep saying those things because you are delusional?

Anonymous said...

The guy you are responding to is clearly not a lintard. That makes you a pretty average retard.

Anonymous said...

Clearly he shares the JustAroundTheCorner(TM) lintard delusion even if he isn't a full blown lintard.

But really thanks for chiming in.

Kharkhalash said...

But anyway to respond to why Mono is hatred and Wine isn't as much, I think the big reason is fact that Mono is mostly written by Novell.

That doesn't make much sense, either, barring the irrational hatred for Novell, Mono was originally developed by Ximian, and it was hated, then, too.



Also Mono advertises itself more as a development environment then a compatibility layer, so the "evil MS tech" isn't just "for the sake of legacy software support", or whatever.

It's true, it's pitched as a platform, with compatibility as a pleasant bonus. It offers .NET developers the option of going cross-platform by limiting themselves to the subset of .NET covered by Mono. This isn't a bad thing.

A cross-platform RAD framework which is developed primarily on Linux is apparently a bad thing, who'd have thought, eh?

It's protected from patent litigation? OH NOES DO NOT WANT!

The hatred for Novell doesn't make much sense either. You'd think Novell going to bat for Linux in the SCO scandal, by claiming ownership of SYS V would count for something. But all you get is "they did it to save their own asses" Fine. So did IBM, mind you, and IBM didn't have much of a choice either, they were the ones who were being sued.

Funny though, how Red Hat gets all this praise for their attempt at a "Me too!" countersuit.

The deal with Microsoft? Gods forbid there be any kind of interoperability. Gods forbid that a company look out for their customers and pledge idemnification. And Gods forbid that a Linux company step up and stop the whole sticking one's fingers in one's ears screaming "LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA" over the possibility of parts of Linux (the OS) infringing on patents (seriously now, who honestly believes that projects like the vFat drivers, NTFS-3g, Mono, Wine and Samba don't possivbly infringe?), and signs not only a patent immunity deal, but extends that deal to their customers.

Pure evil, right?

Seriously, Novell deserves so much better. I'd love to see them drop Linux and jump on the BSD or OpenSolaris bandwagon.

Kharkhalash Simple thing here. X11 sort out takes lots of man hours to get on top of.

All the more reason to leave it behind.

what is a X11 server with all its backwards compatibility stuff cut away leaving only the new system.

Which is exactly why an X11 wrapper would be needed. Backward compatibility is a good thing.

Since interfaces servers don't need to support X11 they are free to go there own way. Anything needing X11 support run X11 for it.

Which begs for the question, why bother replacing it, if it isn't going to be replaced?

Disadvantage of wrapper solution is cross taint.

Advantage of a wrapper solution is that it provides optional backward compatibility and can simply be phased out over time (much like Apple, eventually phased out backward compatibility with Mac OS Classic).

Design alteration about X11 is about allowing it to be fully killed off if different solution is chosen.

Which is a waste of manpower and development time, why bother bringing something up to modern standards, only to replace it? It's wasted work.

The current alterations are not a plan to keep X11 around for ever. More update free future paths and see what comes.

In other words, there is no plan.

Again, Linux is not playing catchup with 15 year old tech, but has no concrete plan or direction for the future. The competition is already almost 2 decades ahead of the curb, has a plan, a vision to follow, and is pulling away more and more quickly.

It's kind of disturbing when you hear arguments that it's being worked on, and in the distant future, it'll be on par with current tech, maybe. Imagine how far ahead the competition will be by then?

Audio interfaces are fairly much pointless if graphical don't work.

I fail to see why.

Audio is in the same problem as X11 was lack of a good maintainer to clean it up. Focus will shift once visual interface side is sorted out.

The audio clusterfuck was a result of fragmentation, poor foresight, unstable API/ABI at the kernel level, as well as poor management.

Further, why they decided to abandon a functional audio subsystem (OSS) for a half-assed replacement (ALSA) for which many apps (Flash being a good example) still only really work because of OSS-Emulation for legacy support.

Anonymous said...

IBM drops offer to buy Sun:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/06/technology/business-computing/06blue.html

Not good, shares of Sun will surely fall lower, projects will need to be cut or axed. It would make sense to cut development for Linux since it's not a real money maker anyway. Concentrate on Windows and Osx. Let
Linux whither and die.

Anonymous said...

I give desktop Linux two more years before interest dries up completely. I'm also throwing in the prediction that server use will wane as well. You heard it here first, from Anonymous on an anonymous blog.

oiaohm said...

Advantage of a wrapper solution is that it provides optional backward compatibility

That is the disadvantage. Windows 16 bit code hung around long after it should have been killed off because of thunking ie wrapper.

Look at X11 framework. Applications after the alterations are done only need the bar min of dependence on it to work. Basically telling X11 about the window to displace then requesting the buffer connected to that window and interfacing directly with that.

To be correct you can work exactly the other way. Create buffer use buffer and have another application tell X11 to display buffer in X11.

"Copy paste and Drag and Drop", input protocols need to still go through X11 for X11 interfacing at this stage. Input protocol bit will be reduced down as well.

New design X11 server operations allow independent design and shortest path to get from userspace to video card.

The complete DRI2 project was not really making X11 work it was gutting it. New X11 server is basically a very whole shell if it former self. Opengl support is split away from it. Accelerated video will follow.

You don't demolition a building by building another shell of it. You gut it then drop it. There is no need to code a wrapper for X11. Just what they are doing gut the X11 server of all its features into independent frameworks that can be used in any future need combination.

OS X also followed this line with OS 9 by the way. OS 9 applications run in a virtual machine not on OS X. This way OS 9 applications are cleanly split from OS X and that complete ABI set can be deprecated in time.

There is a plan. Remove dependence on X11. Remove lag issues. Get down to a far tighter and far better performing design. Old style X11 design with lots of things done by Server don't suit that design.

Its a simple point once X11 is completely gutted there maybe nothing left of it worth keeping or there might be something worth keeping. It very much like stripping a building. This is way I say soon people who want to get rid of X11 for good from Linux and all other Posix stacks will have there chance.

The gutting of X11 is also about something you overlooking. There is a reason why applications are needing close to direct access to video card. Windows developers think its a step backwards. Vista and Window 7 you cannot get a direct single thread operation to place data on screen straight up.

DRI2 is purely about using the video card more. Way more. Play a Movie no cpu lag. Run virus scanning faster due to being able to offload. Transcode videos again faster due to being able to off load to video card.

Future desktops need very effective ways for userspace applications to talk to the GPU in the video card.

I am sorry Windows is not 2 decades ahead here. Its being jumped over.

Alteration allows things of undreamed of like running multi-able gpu using libraries like opengl VA-API and so on without any of them ever having to talk to each other. Even multipliable versions. So you could have the equal of having every version of direct X installed side by side. Cannot work in current designed windows.

The effect of simplifying the video card driver. Core video card driver in Linux is made so simple. Is a simple 2d render with gpu resource management. Everything less is userspace.

Simple driver in kernel also does not really need to know X11 Frame buffer or anything else.

Simple driver thinking that most alterations to video cards happen in 3d support and 2D complex accelerated rendering that has been pushed to userspace. Video driver updates most of the time will become rebootless and no need to even stop using your applications just all the new applications you use get the updated drivers pre update programs keep on using the old.

Can Vista and Windows 7 do a video card driver updates without stopping your applications or restarting your machine?

I am sorry the new stack is modern. More modern than Windows Video stack design.

Advantage of X11 has always been not needing to reboot the machine for video card driver updates. New design takes it one step more. No need to stop your applications for video card driver updates. Stop your applications when it suits you.

This is kinda more important to get right than Audio. Best audio stack in the world is useless on a desktop machine if you have to restart the graphical interface at non suitable times to get stuff done.

In time the audio stack will have to go though the same gutting and rebuilding stage.

Upper level of Linux audio stack is fairly much stabilizing on gstreamer. Most new applications using audio are using it. Ok developers not working on sorting out the messy bits really. Stabilization of the interface api was key. Once you have most applications stable on one interface API gutting and cleaning up the system becomes simpler todo.

ALSA was really created in the hope of removing the need for sound servers. Userspace. So far the camp of sound servers are good have basically destroyed ALSA progress by basically taking the path don't bother fixing ALSA instead lets just make a sound server to sit on top to hide all evils only to introduce new evils.

No problem really. Due to the tech changes that are coming sound servers in userspace will basically end up unable to function. So forcing those developers into working on improving the areas they should have been working on. There experiments will still be good R&D.

Anonymous said...

"Future desktops need very effective ways for userspace applications to talk to the GPU in the video card."

How does X11 plan to accomplish this?

Anonymous said...

I think server use is already waning. People love to sling statistics back and forth about web servers, but that isn't what most companies need. Core services like login, file, and mail are all going to Windows.

Linux sucks even here. It doesn't have an answer to Active Directory or even OpenDirectory. ACLs are practically non-existent, and the Linux vision of collaboration is still stuck in the sendmail era.

oiaohm said...

"Future desktops need very effective ways for userspace applications to talk to the GPU in the video card."

How does X11 plan to accomplish this?


Already has in GEM/DRI2. With GEM you can directly from your application interface with the video card through shared memory and syscalls to kernel. DRI2 you can access the interface to video card X11 allocated you then go direct.

Applications are free to system call GEM directly to create allocations like for non graphical work. You don't find render farms with every machine running a graphical environment. There is no need to start a graphical environment at all to use the GPU on the video card.

The design is light clean simple and expandable. Also like gpu instructions they can be optimized in user-space before being sent to video card or sent past kernel and optimized in the GPU.

Due to the transports to GPU being blocks there is really no reason to context switch to kernel space before the blocks are ready to send if for some reason gpu optmiser failed in kernel space could bring the OS down(Nvidia does this from time to time in there binary drivers for Windows and Linux). This is also stability. Failure to process would stay in userspace so 2 context switchs are not wasted on failures, Context switchs are slow. DRI2 forces lots and lots of stuff to Userspace independant to X11 server so the min number of Context switches happen and X11 server has less things in it so less likely to be a point of failure that brings the house down. Individual applications crash not complete interface.

Master video mode control in the form of KMS added so when complete GPU major stuffed system stands a chance of getting back to operational.

Speed as not been taken without building stability.

Light clean simple applies to the kernel video card driver as well. Its a area where you want the least amount of complexity.

There is basically bugger all between user-space applications and video-card other than secuirty to prevent applications from stepping on each other toes.

Active Directory bit we all know about. Mind pausing for a second what is the point of having active directory like support if video does not work. You are putting horse after cart and wondering why it don't link up. You are not alone here. There is a order that things have to happen. Anything happening outside that order don't develop too well. Even MS development has obeyed the order of events.

http://Freeipa.org , http://pulse2.mandriva.org/ and others are working on something that matches and goes past what Active Directory provides. Freeipa design is far more big brother and far more able to apply that big brother force than Active Directory can.

Just because you lack the means to find the tools to make Linux simple to manage on large deployments don't mean they don't exist. Pulse 2 and freeipa used in combination is very effective. Heck Pulse 2 is highly useful in windows networks.

Management issue is really small. I am sorry but Active directory at times is not a walk in the park.

Anonymous said...

what is the point of having active directory like support if video does not work

Uh...huh? These are unrelated features. Equaling or bettering Active Directory would give Linux a competitive edge despite absence of video functionality.

Pulse 2 and freeipa used in combination is very effective.

So your answer to an easy to deploy solution like Active Directory is to bolt together two separate, poorly marketed tools? Once again, this is why Linux fails. It needs to offer something better, not "maybe it'll be 50% as good once you slap all the dependencies together and spend two weeks debugging the mess".

And again with the "it's being worked on" stuff. No one cares what's being worked on; we need to set stuff up now. Once it's done, it won't be touched for years, even if something "better" comes along. Canned directory services are old. This should have been done a decade ago.

Anonymous said...

Anyone who talks shit about X11 has no fucking clue what they are talking about.

Anonymous said...

"Anyone who talks shit about X11 has no fucking clue what they are talking about."

Anyone who praises X11 has never had to code with X11. It took it years to get fucking hotplug support, which Windows and OS X had for years prior.

Kharkhalash said...

It would make sense to cut development for Linux since it's not a real money maker anyway. Concentrate on Windows and Osx. Let
Linux whither and die.


Sun does really do Linux. They just offer it as a desktop solution on low end workstations.

That is the disadvantage. Windows 16 bit code hung around long after it should have been killed off because of thunking ie wrapper.

Thunking is still around, wow-16 (for 16-bit compatibility) on 32-bit Windows, and wow-32 (for 32-bit compatibility) on 64-bit Windows.

You're missing the point of backward compatibility: supporting legacy applications. It's important for several reasons: the obvious one being support for applications which are no longer maintained, and the less obvious one, in order to have a gradual move forwards; Current applications still work, but newer ones, using the newer APIs will also work. WoW16 was never about keeping 16-bit code alive, nor is wow32 about keeping 32-bit code alive.

It's the same premise for X11. Nuking backward compatibility means that all current x11 apps will need to be rewritten in order to run on the new graphics layer.

There's also the reverse way of doing it, implementing forward compatibility (which is why Apple developed Carbon, mind you, they still offered backward compatibility until, I think Panther).

Backward compatibility means that the current apps still run. Now, I know that randomly breaking compatibility and forcing everyone to rewrite their junk to match the new APIs is standard practice in Linux, but it's silly, Such drastic changes need to be done incrementally and be made transparent to the user. Meaning you don't change the API without implementing a means to proceed forward, without breaking current compatibility, i.e. Backward compatibility.

You don't demolition a building by building another shell of it. You gut it then drop it. There is no need to code a wrapper for X11. Just what they are doing gut the X11 server of all its features into independent frameworks that can be used in any future need combination.

You don't make radical changes without first ensuring that current compatibility remains. What exactly they're doing to/with x11 isn't important, neither is how they're doing it. What's important is weather or not backward compatibility will be introduced in the event that x11 is replaced or changed drastically.

This is called sane software development. The fact that by and large Linux doesn't care about backward compatibility isa one of the reasons it never took off on desktops and workstations. People need to be able to run their legacy apps.

OS X also followed this line with OS 9 by the way. OS 9 applications run in a virtual machine not on OS X. This way OS 9 applications are cleanly split from OS X and that complete ABI set can be deprecated in time.

Yes, that's what we call backward compatibility. Don't forget, btw, that prior to Classic, Carbon was also introduced as means of forward compatibility. Classic was for everything that was left over that hadn't been ported to Carbon, yet. (aka legacy applications).

Also don't forget about Rosetta, which allows Intel macs to run PPC applications. That, once again is backward compatibility.

Want other examples? FreeBSD has a means for this, too, via (optional) alternate subsystems for compatibility with FreeBSD 4.x, 5.x, 6.x and 7.x. Everyone else does this because, again, backward compatibility is vital. You can't just break current compatibility without ensuring people can still run their current and legacy apps to run. Ignore this very basic need, and your product will be ignored.

You can't just make a drastic change in the things are done and expect everyone else to unilaterally follow suite. That isn't how it works, and this doesn't seem to be well understood in the Linux world, which is one of the more prevalent reasons why Linux fails to gain traction.

There is a plan. Remove dependence on X11. Remove lag issues. Get down to a far tighter and far better performing design. Old style X11 design with lots of things done by Server don't suit that design.

Agreed, but that's still not a good enough reason to unilaterally break current compatibility.


Its a simple point once X11 is completely gutted there maybe nothing left of it worth keeping or there might be something worth keeping.

Again, that isn't the point. The point isn't about keeping x11 around. It's about maintaining current and legacy compatibility.

Weather you do this via wrappers, alternate subsystems or virtualization isn't important. What is important is that a) it is done. b) the new and legacy systems work together, and c) it is transparent to the user.

The gutting of X11 is also about something you overlooking.

It doesn't matter what I'm overlooking, really. I think we can both agree that x11 is archaic, outdated and needs to die.

The gutting of x11 is irrelevant, given this as well. What we seem to disagree on, and what you seem to be overlooking is the more pressing matter: the importance of backward compatibility.

DRI2 is purely about using the video card more. Way more. Play a Movie no cpu lag. Run virus scanning faster due to being able to offload. Transcode videos again faster due to being able to off load to video card.

Right, it's about offloading CPU intensive tasks to the GPU when it makes sense. Windows and OS X already do this, just so you know.

Hell, the Adobe Creative Suite CS4 even does this on the application level. Catch up?

Future desktops need very effective ways for userspace applications to talk to the GPU in the video card.

Current desktops already do this. See, this is what I mean when I say Linux lags behind the curve. You're talking about future desktops and referring to features already present in current desktops, and that's the point. When this become prevalent in Linux, what do you think OS X and Windows will be doing? If nothing new, their implemewntations will already be much more mature and robust, at the very least.

I am sorry Windows is not 2 decades ahead here. Its being jumped over.

You seriously think that offloading CPU intensive tasks to the GPU (where it makes sense to do so) is future tech? LMAO.

Three words: Behind. The. Curve.

Alteration allows things of undreamed of like running multi-able gpu using libraries like opengl VA-API and so on without any of them ever having to talk to each other.

That's kind of a step backwards. It's all about centralized, unified frameworks: .NET, DirectX, Cocoa, CoreVideo/CoreAudio/CoreImage, etc...


Even multipliable versions. So you could have the equal of having every version of direct X installed side by side. Cannot work in current designed windows.

It could work, but it's pointless and wasteful. Why would you want to have every version of DX installed? That's what backward compatibility is for, anyway.


Simple driver thinking that most alterations to video cards happen in 3d support and 2D complex accelerated rendering that has been pushed to userspace.

So essentially, as I understand it, pushing things off into userspace, aka adopting a Hybrid kernel design. News flash: both NT1 and XNU were designed this way, from the beginning.

Again, Behind. The. Curve.

Video driver updates most of the time will become rebootless and no need to even stop using your applications just all the new applications you use get the updated drivers pre update programs keep on using the old.

Weren't you opposed legacy compatibility just, what, 4 paragraphs ago?

Can Vista and Windows 7 do a video card driver updates without stopping your applications or restarting your machine?

I don't know, I haven't used 7, or vista extensively. I do know that previously it was a conceous design choice to not allow system files to be overwritten while they are in use (anyone whose ever accidentally made harmful changes to core files and left a Linux system in an unbootable state as a result knows why this, in the context of a mass-market consumer system, was a smart decision).

It's a design choice, not a technical limitation. Though I do remember reading about an attempt to pull the driver model of Windows into userspace.

Regardless, notice how you're comparing potential future Linux tech to current Windows tech?

How about you stop moving the goal posts here, and compare future tech to future tech: MS Singularity with it's full microkernel design.


I am sorry the new stack is modern. More modern than Windows Video stack design.



Advantage of X11 has always been not needing to reboot the machine for video card driver updates.


I've always needed to reboot Linux to use updated drivers. Since, you know, the drivers operate at the kernel level. Never understood why there was a need to have a driver layer in both the kernel and X11.

New design takes it one step more. No need to stop your applications for video card driver updates. Stop your applications when it suits you.

And shall we expect this new design to be ready for the mass market within the next decade?

Again, though, there are good reasons for why Windows cannot change system files why they're in use. Less things go wrong.

Yes, it's inconvenient, but less so than the potential for things to go wrong with the alternative.

Really, you need to see it for what it is: a thought out choice, not a technical limitation.

This is kinda more important to get right than Audio. Best audio stack in the world is useless on a desktop machine if you have to restart the graphical interface at non suitable times to get stuff done.

As a musician who works primarily on OS X and to a lesser degree on Windows XP. I disagree.

Furthermore, it's not as if I can't delay a Windows restart until a time where it is more convenient. It's not 9x anymore.

NT asks if I want to reboot now or later. I pick later. I finish what I'm doing, and reboot when it suits me. It can be in 15 minutes or in 15 days, it doesn't really matter.

In time the audio stack will have to go though the same gutting and rebuilding stage.

Right, again, wasted time and effort to play catch up.

Concentrating effort on a single, all-encompassing centralized multimedia framework (like directX on Win and Core* on OS X) would save a lot of time and effort.

But go ahead, strip down and rebuilt, and see how archaic the final product is by the time it's ready for production use.

Upper level of Linux audio stack is fairly much stabilizing on gstreamer.

As far as I can tell, Gnome tends to favour GStreamer, while KDE still has its own thing going on.

Not to mention the mess that is Alsa/Jack/Pulse/esound/esd/etc


Most new applications using audio are using it.

Most Gnome applications as far as I can tell.

Once you have most applications stable on one interface API gutting and cleaning up the system becomes simpler todo.

You're joking, right?
This is only true in the event that backward compatibility is provided. Otherwise is a whole slew of wasted time, effort and resources on the part of the application developers.


ALSA was really created in the hope of removing the need for sound servers.


Alsa was created because OSS at the time didn't do software mixing (instead relying on soundcards to be able to do hardware mixing) Of course, at the time, hardware mixing was available on pretty much every current sound card offering, but you know how it is with Linux and wanting to support even the most archaic hardware.

Of course, by the time ALSA came around to a semi-finished state, software mixing was introduced into OSS, removing the reason for Alsa to even exist, before it was even marked stable.

This could have been another huge reason for why Linux is ignored by third parties, but the Alsa devs were clever enough to include OSS emulation as a means of backward compatibility, which for a long time, and I'm not sure if this is still the case, was the only reason Flash, for example, ever worked in Linux.

The whole predicament is kind of comical, given that now, OSS also includes ALSA emulation. It's kinda funny, given that OSS remains the standard sound system for POSIX/Unix. Third parties, as a result, still develop on OSS. Go figure.

No problem really. Due to the tech changes that are coming sound servers in userspace will basically end up unable to function. So forcing those developers into working on improving the areas they should have been working on.

And you really don't see why that kind of attitude is not only a huge problem, but one of the biggest reasons Linux fails to gain traction, is largely ignored by third parties, and is so far behind the curb, do you?

Anonymous said...

MS Singularity with it's full microkernel design.

Hopefully this won't drive the script kiddies to Minix.

Kharkhalash said...

Hopefully this won't drive the script kiddies to Minix.

It'd still be a step up from Linux.

Anonymous said...

Kharkhalash, you fucking idiot, I love rewriting my applications because some dickwad decided to redo the API. Fuck dude, what developer doesn't look forward to rewriting the same bullshit they took care of six months ago? Besides, it's a good excuse for not implementing that feature everyone is requesting or fixing that bug everyone is complaining about.

Anonymous said...

IfOiaohmSaysItEnoughItWillBecomeTruth(TM)

Anonymous said...

uhh you don't need to reboot in order to install video drivers in Vista... but ffs that's one thing i do maybe 1 time per month...

let's see: if i would choose between:
1 - not needing to reboot my machine when installing things and using free software
2 - being able to play games like Crysis or Bioshock, or watching youtube videos whithout sound getting fucked up or getting my 3G pen working quickly without looking into forums and recompiling shit

damn... this is very difficult

DamnRight said...

ALSA was really created in the hope of removing the need for sound servers.

Alsa was created because OSS at the time didn't do software mixing


ALSA (or Pulseaudio, or your favorite choice of demented new newness) was created because somebody woke up one morning with a clever idea for a new, awesome audio stack and there was nobody in charge with an actual vision and roadmap for the Linux platform that could stop them from reinventing the wheel once more. That's the glory of FOSS for you.

Upper level of Linux audio stack is fairly much stabilizing on gstreamer.

Why is there an 'upper level' at all? Is it really that hard to copy CoreAudio - a single, systemwide low-latency audio API?

Kharkhalash, not sure if I agree with you on the importance of backwards compatibility for Linux. Given that:

- They are too cool for releasing software as binaries

- The whole thing is a giant ball of alpha to beta quality source code that's in constant flux anyway

seems to me that the only apps that would benefit are the few 3D and scientific commercial ones. Maybe I'm missing some obvious example, were you thinking of something specific?

Anonymous said...

MS Singularity with it's full microkernel design.

Except that Singularity is a research project that will never be used in a retail product. Some features of it might influence future NT design, but that's about it.

Anonymous said...

Never say never. Of course, Microsoft has a product that works NOW, so they don't really need the JustAroundTheCorner(TM) mentality.

Anonymous said...

Except that Singularity is a research project that will never be used in a retail product. Some features of it might influence future NT design, but that's about it.

Ehr, so far for insight.

MS released an "RDK" (Research Development Kit) a number of months ago ... as open source.

Translated: we're doing all misty about this OS but in the near future, not only will this new platform be released -- it'll be accompanied by a debugged API/ABI, an open standards SDK, applications ... there'll even be programmers with experience.



You're an idiot for not seeing this one coming.

Anonymous said...

Bridging the gap from monolythic to microkernel is too complex to do it by releasing a new OS. It's a huge compatibility issue because of the backward-compatibility issue discussed here. MS has two choices:
1. building a hybrid, which will be clunky or might turn out to be wishful thinking
2. releasing, debugging and optimizing the dev tools long before the platform is released - Step 1

Step 2: make developers write apps for it without releasing the OS. How do you do that? Run the OS as a server. It'll be useless as a client, so no worries about customers that don't have apps.

Step 3: a little $ comes in but name and concept become popular

Step 4: start pushing the odd app and release a client version - you know, "for research"

Step 5: release client version with apps to the mass market

Step 6: shitloads of $

Anonymous said...

1. building a hybrid, which will be clunky or might turn out to be wishful thinking

NT already is a Hyrbid kernel

Kyle said...

I think he means a hybrid between the current NT kernel and the Singularity kernel that would let software written for the NT kernel run under the new microkernel architecture, not that they would simply make a hybrid kernel (which, as you have already pointed out, NT is).

Kharkhalash said...

Step 2: make developers write apps for it without releasing the OS. How do you do that? Run the OS as a server. It'll be useless as a client, so no worries about customers that don't have apps.

Or even better, since they have lots of time to work this through, given that they already have a product which works NOW, and that they're still developping, make the transition slow and incremental, and leverage the beauty the hybrid kernel: it's already designed like a microkernel, all you need to do is alter/rewrite the subsystems that won't be in kernel, so that they could operate in user-space one at a time, and implement the IPC stuff as you go, as they're already doing.

For example, how do you get device manufacturers to write devices for the microkernel design? Simple, you rewrite the driver model, pull it out of kernel-space, put in user-space and call it Vista.

Rinse and repeat with the other subsystems, implementing the IPC stuff as you go.

by the time you roll out the full-microkernel design, everyone already knows how to write drivers and applications for it, and it's all completely transparent to the consumer (because the consumer doesn't need to know -- or care, about the underpinnings of the OS, and as such, should not notice such a transition).

All the while, there are Singularity RDKs being released, so not only is the gap slowly being breached on the consumer-level, there's also the opportunity to develop for the next step.

there's no need to released a straight up NT/Singularity hybrid, when time is on your side, and you can simply gradually transform one into the other, and have nobody notice.

Except that Singularity is a research project that will never be used in a retail product. Some features of it might influence future NT design, but that's about it.

NT started off as R&D as well, you know...

And I second the remark about you have absolutely no foresight whatsoever.

Singularity isn't being pushed as ItsRightAroundTheCorner(TM) the next Windows, because then there would be no reason to continue with NT if it's going to be replaced, anyway.

That's why Singularity is a "research project" with an RDK. People who have the RDK and are playing around with it are doing so to get a head start. They know that's the direction Windows is heading in, otherwise there would be no publicly available RDK.

It's really the ideal way to go about it, perfect the technology as "research", while you're gradually steering the current tech in that direction.

Singularity is a lot bigger than just a full microkernel. The whole thing is done in managed code. in case your lack of foresight (and hindsight, as well, in this case) is getting in the way, this points to the deprecation on the win32 API in favour of .NET/CLI becoming the centralized API/framwork.

Singularity uses lots of (and may even be written mostly in) Sing#, which is an extension to Spec#, which itself is an extension to C#.

this is where hindsight really kicks in and you begin to realize why MS has been pushing .NET as fiercely as they have, and just how far ahead they've been planning.

How do you get people to develop apps for a platform that doesn't exist yet? easy, provide them with the tools to do it with, incorporate the framework into the current product, promote it to a standard, and congrats, you've implemented forward-compatibility with the future platform, which now also has backward-compatibility to the current platform.

Apple did the same thing. Carbon was released for Mac OS 8 (8.1 specifically, if memory served). At this point nobody has even heard of OS X or Rhapsody. It only became clear what exactly Carbon was for until OS X was announced. All of a sudden, all those Carbonized apps for classic work on OS X, despite the completely different OS internals. Theyc did the same thing again by introducing Cocoa with OS X, promoting it over Carbon, making it the standard API, then announcing that Carbon won't be made 64-bit compatible.

MS is doing the same thing here.

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Just for the sake of pointing out:
ATI drivers on vista and windows 7 does not need reboot, nor my particular chipset drivers nor my acpi drivers (asus p5kc).

Anonymous said...

this is where hindsight really kicks in and you begin to realize why MS has been pushing .NET as fiercely as they have, and just how far ahead they've been planning.

Indeedy, I was one of the many that stared bewildered at the .NET/C# creation which suddenly emerged from nothingness not so long ago.


BTW, Singularity: a point in the future where everything comes together.

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Anonymous said...

BS! Only an idiot thinks that if he doesn't shutdown he is computer and doesn't care about boot time, then nobody does it, in the whole wide world! Well, think again! There are many people, majority of computer users, who shuts down their computers every day, sometimes even more than two times in a day. There are a lot of people who aren't skillful with computers, who know only how to open internet and read and send an e-mail and don't have a smallest idea how to hack some f***ing windows to boot it in 10 seconds or something, actually they even don't get bothered about that. So bragging that some guys vista boots in 10 seconds, that shows also how stupid that guy is.

Krulle said...

I shutdown all my hardware (Desktop, Laptop, mobile phone, smartphone) every single time I don't need it for the next 30 minutes (phones over night). and still, i don't care for boot times. Desktop has enough ram to write everything there. Laptop boot process is stripped down to minimum + virusscan (both Windows Vista home premium 64-bit edition (do the windows-names get longer?)). mobile phone is old and thus very limited in processes anyawy, smartphone boots up with *keylock* directly on, so I can switch it on and let it dissapear in some pocket immediatly.
Really, suspend-to-disk or how all these sleep-modes are working don't give me a thing. After boot i still need to get my hot tea before I can work. So the boot process get's more time than it needs anyway, plus it's fresh without stuff hanging around in memory from last use.

Anonymous said...

Wow whole post is about why it does not matter how fast shitdos starts and then some retards praise their shitdos to start at 10 secs :)

Well I guess it is better to be freetard then retard :)

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Anonymous said...

In the time a just installed windows boots, I could've booted Ubuntu and read all these lame posts. Oh wait! I didn't know windows automatically installs viruses on boot?!? Guess I should reinstall a few times before I can wait for it to boot...

Anonymous said...

if you don't care about energy problem of the world then no problem, there is no need to shut down your computer, but if you think how many computer users in the world and how much electricity wasted because of not shutting down the computer while not using it, it is a huge waste of energy which we will seriously need in the future. By the way i use linux, but i shot down my computer 2 or 3 times a day, so it would be nice if it boots fast.

Anonymous said...

the guy is right. I've used linux (and only linux) as my desktop for 9 years now. 2 years ago I got a laptop, put linux on it, and got suspend/resume working with a bit of effort. As the author said, being able to just close the lid to suspend and have you desktop back instantly when you open it makes all these boot time issues nearly irrelevant. The only time I boot up is when I've suspended it with not much battery left and then over the next day sometime the battery has run down to 0.

It is a terrible shame that this stuff does not work on desktop machines (in linux) and so my desktop still has to sit there running 24x7.

It also precludes using a linux box as a NAS or any other sort of service which you want access to 24x7 but don't want to be running fully powered up 24x7.

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As it turns out boot time is important - normally the first step when my Mac isn't mounting any samba shares is to reboot it :)

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