Friday, June 26, 2009

The fail train that is Munich

Wow, nice link in the comments.



An entire blog dedicated to the failure that is the Munich Linux transition.

Hopefully the rest of Germany and Europe can learn from Munich's mistakes.

Why don't we all go over to this guy's blog and give him a nice warm hug.

4156 flames:

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Anonymous said...

10% success, 90% vaporware...

Anonymous said...

Greetings from Germany. Our situation is dire, we are completely overrun by Freetards. The Linux IT-scourge is spreading and there's nothing we can do:

Vienna gets infected as we speak!

Anonymous said...

LINUX > *

You know I'm right!

Anonymous said...

Ze great Munich transition used to be ze most noteworthy example of Linux desktop adoption, no?

Anonymous said...

Linux is the best OS in the world
All other OS is made by little girls

Linux is #1 exporter of pwnage
All other OS are receivers of the pwnage

Linux Linux, you really nice OS
From Munich, Germany to Top 500 supercomputers

Linux Linux, you really nice OS
From Munich, Germany to Top 500 supercomputers

Anonymous said...

Hatertards you are claiming victory way to early. Call me when Munich says "fuck it, let's suck Steve Ballmer's cock because it's easier".

Anyway you can say it cost 12 million euros but most of that money stays within Munich, since they are hiring local people to create this distro and train people. That's better economically speaking then sending it to Washington or Saudi Arabia, or wherever the fuck money you give to Microsoft goes.

alvare-ClrnD said...

What do you want them to do?
They can't install OSX, cause they would've to change %100 of the hardware!
They don't really have a choice!

Look this college. They also had to switch to Linux.

But this people considered Windows, I don't see why, any intelligent living organism can see that it has no more than 2 years of life.

captcha: lesserfl

Kharkhalash said...

I give up. I'm actually going to try Linux for the first time in my life.

Anonymous said...

Is this some kind of emo website?

Anonymous said...

Screw linux. We have this fine piece of art called FreeBSD, let's use it!

Anonymous said...

If you think Linux hardware support sucks, FreeBSD won't help you. The OS doesn't support hardware created after 1993, or at least it feels that way.

Anonymous said...

I hope that all eyes are on Munich. These test cases are important when more and more governments are being encouraged to look at foss as a cost saving option.

Business knows that cost is never the bottom line (try productivity). Governments are far more susceptible to the bleatings of vocal lobby groups, however.

I'm taking the long term approach with this as well. Whichever way things end up going, it will be interesting.

Captcha: ingib. In Gib We Trust?

Anonymous said...

but but but .. at least FreeBSD has a stable ABI! WE ALL KNOW THAT STABLE ABI IS THE KEY TO SOLVING ALL THE WORLDS PROBLEMS.

I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT AN ABI IS BUT I THINK IF I BITCH ENUF ABOUT LINUX NOT HAVING ONE I WILL LOOK SMARTS>

Anonymous said...

Again, Linux Hater emits another anemic "entry" that consists of the usual poorly written smarm with a link to some other retard's incredibly lame blog full of unsupported lies and conjecture he just pulled out of his ass.

You could pile a list of failed proprietary software projects in the public sector to the fucking Moon, as anyone who actually knows anything will tell you.

LH is getting lamer by the second.

Anonymous said...

you don't need to know what an ABI is. If you've ever done a kernel update you know that it inevitably wrecks a degree of havoc on established systems.

We were looking at virtualizing a core server some months back. This was right after the news of the vmware server breakage. Guess how much confidence that gave us in Linux as a mission critical VM host?

Anonymous said...

I hope that all eyes are on Munich. These test cases are important when more and more governments are being encouraged to look at foss as a cost saving option.

Yeah it's inspiring other German cities to move to Linux. Linux becoming very widely used in Germany.

I wouldn't underestimate these sneaky Krauts. The country came very close to single-handedly taking over the entire world.

Anonymous said...

"I wouldn't underestimate these sneaky Krauts. The country came very close to single-handedly taking over the entire world."

LOL! True enough.

If anyone can make it work, it's the Germans.

...Just so long as their reach doesn't exceed their grasp, as was the problem in the past ;)

Anonymous said...

Swine Flu was yesterday, Linux is now.
I wonder whether the WHO could actually classify Linux as pandemic. Cause it's spreading as fast as AIDS and does at least the same amount of damage.

Anonymous said...

Germany could have easily pwned the world if it weren't for two fundemtnal flaws.

(1) They picked a leader who was a retarded military strategist (attacking the Soviet Union while fighting Britain? Seriously wtf?)

(2) Rampant anti-Semitism caused a scientific brain drain in German academia, which had high percentage of Jewish and Jewish-sympathetic scientists. Ironically many fled to the USA, and became part of the weapons program which created the first nuclear weapon.

Anonymous said...

don't forget the alliance with Japan, which forced them into war with the US after Dec 7/41.

Anonymous said...

Munich spends 12 million euro on developing Linux distro. Some of that money goes to hire local software engineering Jorg. Jorg lives in an apartment near Munich's city center, and pays rent to Munich local Stefan (who pays part of the rent to the Munich government in the form of taxes). Stefan goes every Wednesday to a biergaten and buys a lugenbretzel and pint of Rutenbaker, paying the obligatory 19.5% VAT tax, part of which goes to the city of Munich.

Munich spends 8 million euro on Microsoft software. Bill Gates uses this money to buy a new Ferrari. Part of it goes to India to fund Microsoft's new outsourcing strategy. Very little ever trickles back to Germany, let alone Munich.

I know you Wintards won't get it. But whatever.

Anonymous said...

Munich spends 8 million euro on Microsoft software. Bill Gates uses this money to buy a new Ferrari. Part of it goes to India to fund Microsoft's new outsourcing strategy. Very little ever trickles back to Germany, let alone Munich.

I know you Wintards won't get it. But whatever.


So, either Munich pays coders for code ... or Munich doesn't pay coders for code.

See, this is what I do get: I'm a coder and I don't work for free. You're a hobby script kiddy and give it away.

Anonymous said...

I got it.

Perhaps we could apply the same logic to other bussinesses. Paying for less efficient shit seems a good idea as long as we create employment by hiring the locals to do it. Say, maybe instead of buying foreign good quality cars the government could expend billions to create its own factories. In 30 years or so they'll gain the experience and expertise needed to produce something that works. In the meanwhile, everybody can walk, lowering the CO2 emissions as a positive side effect.

But there's nothing stopping us here. We could as well pay to do utterly pointless things like build a 500 storey tower and destroy it once finished. After all, lottsa jobs will be created with public money, which, as everybody knows, is infinite because it's created out of thin air.

Anonymous said...

Linux in 1990: wow

Linux in 2009: a disgrace

Anonymous said...

*1999

Anonymous said...

Hah.. I know many government institutions embraced ms products fully, believe me they are in much much much worse condition. Productivity my *ss.

Give them a break, and Let Linux fail a few times more, it will indeed get better.

And this site is an interesting honeypot for free software haters and ms astroturfers (they seem to spam every single news item in internet nowadays)

Anonymous said...

Munich will be tha city of Linux Desktop !!

Any moment now, aaaaany moment. Just wait and see, it's just around the corner. And then ... Kaboom baby! Worldwide! Back to the 90's !

Anonymous said...

Year 2509: We, the city of Munich, hope to have completed 20% of the transition to Linux by 2512.

We've only spent 12 trillion euros so far.

Anonymous said...

Munich spends 12 million euro on developing Linux distro. Some of that money goes to hire local software engineering Jorg. Jorg lives in an apartment near Munich's city center, and pays rent to Munich local Stefan (who pays part of the rent to the Munich government in the form of taxes). Stefan goes every Wednesday to a biergaten and buys a lugenbretzel and pint of Rutenbaker, paying the obligatory 19.5% VAT tax, part of which goes to the city of Munich.

Munich spends 8 million euro on Microsoft software. Bill Gates uses this money to buy a new Ferrari. Part of it goes to India to fund Microsoft's new outsourcing strategy. Very little ever trickles back to Germany, let alone Munich.

I know you Wintards won't get it. But whatever.


Get this retard:

Microsoft Center of Excellence, Munich

Tag: estimated 500 million $

You don't get shit.

Anonymous said...

It is obvious that some "people" didn't understand his entry.

Anonymous said...

More than 400 million dollar straight from the U.S. for an academic centre towards students from Munich ... or save less than 15 million to convert to a competitor.

1. bye-bye linux in Munich
2. Fosstard doesn't get economics, again

Anonymous said...

"I know you Wintards won't get it."

So, you're saying that this whole thing is a good'ol fashioned government make-work project?

The kind of project that they'll senselessly pitch money at, all to create local employment.

A common tactic when recessions hit, or when unemployment is up around election time.

Politicians don't have any business sense, apparently. I am disappointed in "make work" being used as a valid reason for this endeavor.

Make Work projects just serve to increase government deficits and put greater tax burdens on the citizens in the future.

Anonymous said...

@June 26, 2009 2:24 PM

Exactly how are they worse off? What was replaced? A mainframe or minicomputer? Pencil and paper? Amigas?

1234swordy said...

@Kharkhalash and some other dude.

Seriously you guys, get a account so that way the freetards won't pretend to be you when they post.

Anonymous said...

Another retard responding to advanced twitter feeds of any news involving M$ OMG!

http://www.betanews.com/profile/Jammit

Gotta love one of the replies though:

"Jammit I notice all of your posts are all anti-MS. Hey listen, if Linux Desktop is so good, shouldn't it stand on it's own merits instead of depending on zealots to make noise on all MS related news posts?

Let's see, your post has the typical:

WorksForMe(TM)
JustUseWine(TM)
It'sNotAnIssueAnymore(TM)
DudeUseDistroX(TM)
We'reOnly18monthsBehind(TM)
OpenofficeBeatsMSOffice(TM)
YouDon'tNeedThatFeature(TM)
YouDon'tNeedBluRay(TM)
TuxRacerIsEnough(TM)"

LOL!

Anonymous said...

This economic principal we plebes supposedly "don't get" is called "protectionism", where lower cost foreign produced alternatives are intentionally shunned in favor of domestic labor in the belief that supporting local labor is more beneficial to the local economy despite inefficiencies. Most economics will vehemently argue that protectionism is squarely against free market and leans heavily toward socialism.

In Munich's case, while this manner of protectionism will look great to the workers hired to staff the LiMux project, the cost of inefficiency is passed onto every German taxpayer, netting a loss overall.

Anonymous said...

Seriously you guys, get a account so that way the freetards won't pretend to be you when they post.

Nothing to gain, why would I play that game? A few freetards aren't worth the effort.

Anonymous said...

"Wanna Be Bootin' Somethin'"

[Chorus]
I Said You Wanna Be Bootin' Somethin'
You Got To Be Bootin' Somethin'
I Said You Wanna Be Bootin' Somethin'
You Got To Be Bootin' Somethin'
It's Too High To Get Over (Yeah, Yeah)
Too Low To Get Under (Yeah, Yeah)
You're Stuck At The Bottom (Yeah, Yeah)
And The Bugs Are Thunder (Yeah, Yeah)
It's Too High To Get Over (Yeah, Yeah)
Too Low To Get Under (Yeah, Yeah)
You're Stuck At The Bottom (Yeah, Yeah)
And The Bugs Are Thunder (Yeah, Yeah)

[1st Verse]
I Took My Box To The Doctor
With No GUI, But Nothing He Found
By The Time This Hit The Street
They Said It Was Still Bootin'
Someone's Always Tryin' To Make My Linux Better'
Bitchin', Squealin', Lyin'
Sayin' You Just Wanna Be Bootin' Somethin'

[Chorus]
I Said You Wanna Be Bootin' Somethin'
You Got To Be Bootin' Somethin'
I Said You Wanna Be Bootin' Somethin'
You Got To Be Bootin' Somethin'
It's Too High To Get Over (Yeah, Yeah)
Too Low To Get Under (Yeah, Yeah)
You're Stuck At The Bottom (Yeah, Yeah)
And The Bugs Are Thunder (Yeah, Yeah)
It's Too High To Get Over (Yeah, Yeah)
Too Low To Get Under (Yeah, Yeah)
You're Stuck At The Bottom (Yeah, Yeah)
And The Bugs Are Thunder (Yeah, Yeah)

[2nd Verse]
You Love To Pretend That You're Good
When You're Always Up For A Reboot
You Really Can't Hibernate
So Your Box Becomes A Nuissance
Someone's Always Tryin' To Make My Linux Better'
Treacherous, Cunnin', Declinin'
You Got My Laptop Dyin'

[Chorus]
I Said You Wanna Be Bootin' Somethin'
You Got To Be Bootin' Somethin'
I Said You Wanna Be Bootin' Somethin'
You Got To Be Bootin' Somethin'
It's Too High To Get Over (Yeah, Yeah)
Too Low To Get Under (Yeah, Yeah)
You're Stuck At The Bottom (Yeah, Yeah)
And The Bugs Are Thunder (Yeah, Yeah)
It's Too High To Get Over (Yeah, Yeah)
Too Low To Get Under (Yeah, Yeah)
You're Stuck At The Bottom (Yeah, Yeah)
And The Bugs Are Thunder (Yeah, Yeah)
You're A Wannabe, You're A Wannabe
They All Hate You, You're A Wannabe
You're A Crap OS, You're A Wannabe
They Get Rid Of You, You're A Wannabe

[3rd Verse]
Kdawson Is Always Talkin'
When Nobody Else Is Talkin'
Tellin' Lies And Rubbin' Shoulders
So They Called His Posts A Trollin'
Someone's Always Tryin' To Start My Linux Better'
Bitchin', Squealin', Spyin'
Sayin' You Just Wanna Be Bootin' Somethin'

[Chorus]
I Said You Wanna Be Bootin' Somethin'
You Got To Be Bootin' Somethin'
I Said You Wanna Be Bootin' Somethin'
You Got To Be Bootin' Somethin'
It's Too High To Get Over (Yeah, Yeah)
Too Low To Get Under (Yeah, Yeah)
You're Stuck At The Bottom (Yeah, Yeah)
And The Bugs Are Thunder (Yeah, Yeah)
It's Too High To Get Over (Yeah, Yeah)
Too Low To Get Under (Yeah, Yeah)
You're Stuck At The Bottom (Yeah, Yeah)
And The Bugs Are Thunder (Yeah, Yeah)
You're A Vegetable, You're A Vegetable
Still They Hate You, You're A Vegetable
You're Just A Buffet, You're A Vegetable
They Eat Off Of You, You're A Vegetable

[Ad-Lib]
If You Cant Fix Your F-OSS (Yeah, Yeah)
Then Buy A Real OS (Yeah, Yeah)
And Don't Think Maybe (Yeah, Yeah)
If You Can't Fix Your KDE (Yeah, Yeah)
You'll Be Always Tryin'
To Stop That Bitch From Crashin'
Hustlin', Stealin', Lyin'
Now Linux's Slowly Dyin'

[Chorus]
I Said You Wanna Be Bootin' Somethin'
You Got To Be Bootin' Somethin'
I Said You Wanna Be Bootin' Somethin'
You Got To Be Bootin' Somethin'
It's Too High To Get Over (Yeah, Yeah)
Too Low To Get Under (Yeah, Yeah)
You're Stuck At The Bottom (Yeah, Yeah)
And The Bugs Are Thunder (Yeah, Yeah)
It's Too High To Get Over (Yeah, Yeah)
Too Low To Get Under (Yeah, Yeah)
You're Stuck At The Bottom (Yeah, Yeah)
And The Bugs Are Thunder (Yeah, Yeah)

[Ad-Lib]
Lift Your Head Up High
And Scream Out To The World
I Know that Linux Sux
And Let The Truth Unfurl
No One Needs Terminals
Because You Know What's True
Yes, I Just Want Free Time
And Not A Free OS
Help Me Sing It, Ma Ma Se,
Ma Ma Sa, Ma Ma Coo Sa
Ma Ma Se, Ma Ma Sa,
Ma Ma Coo Sa
[Repeat/Fade-Out]

Anonymous said...

I have this theory that Linux advocacy comes in waves. Like every five years, a new bunch of computer science freshmen show up and say "Wow a free operating system that comes with it's own built-in ideology! All it needs is x,y,z and it's going to displace Windows!"

Then these young idealists spend years trying to get their hardware working and watching upgrades break their system, until they finally get cynical and run back to Apple and Microsoft. Just in time for the next bunch of CompSci rubes to sign up and get suckered into the freetard program.

Anyway, this Munich project is so "last generation" Linux advocate. It used to be cited in every Slashdot thread as evidence that the Linux Desktop was making traction. Once the project became an embarrassing multi-year failure, any discussion about it was quickly silenced. The modern Ubuntu-using CompSci sophomore probably has never even heard of it.

Anonymous said...

How is Munich going to deal with the crucial Pidgin vs. Empathy situation?

Anonymous said...

I know you Wintards won't get it. But whatever.

We're not Wintards. We're Linux haters. Wintards don't even know what Linux is.

Once you've started using Linux, you'll hate it too.

Anonymous said...

I've used Linux for the past 10 years, and I love it.

.net jerkface said...

Don't worry, Microsoft always finds a way to stop these silly Linux experiments.

Anonymous said...

The circle of life and human attiude:

Birth
Wonder&Imagination
Optimism
Idealism
Nihilism
Cynicalism
Hatred and Bitterness
Death

I would assume the most of the people here are old fucks.

thepld said...

I love that when Freetards can't refute a point they just fall back to accusing everyone of being an astroturfer or part of some large M$ conspiracy. Not a single post in this thread has attempted to combat any of the points raised in that link - well, except for the import substitution guy. Might help to take some econ classes, eh?

Thx4DaMoneyMS. said...

Lemme ask a question: How many actually believes that MS is PAYING people to spread FUD? - i mean.. Every once in a while i find an article which claims that people are being paid for that..

captcha: outting. there's outwitting, and there's outting. Linux fails at both.

Anonymous said...

Microsoft is most certainly paying people to spread FUD.

Anonymous said...

"Microsoft is most certainly paying people to spread FUD."

I better drop a line to Redmond and ask them where the fuck my paycheck is then.

Thx4DaMoneyMS. said...

PLEASE, for the love of all that is holy, please give me ONE solid evidence then!

- other than how some people actually like windows, and like to write about it. (much as lusers does it)

captcha: wooking.

What ought to be done to major parts of "linux": Be fed to a giant hairy ape, with a laser-crossbow.

Anonymous said...

dude, seriously, you payed M$ shills are total retards.

Everybody know Free, Open Source Shilling (FOSS for you wintards) is the wave of the future. Money is just an anachronism, you don't need it.

Anonymous said...

@June 26, 2009 5:05 PM

You probably should. I personally don't see why anyone would volunteer to be Microsoft's sockpuppet then they pay people for the service.

Anonymous said...

@June 26, 2009 5:07 PM

There is a position within Microsoft called "technical evangelist" who's only purpose is to "preach" the gospel of Microsoft in events and on the Internet. This isn't some kind of secret conspiracy information, it's public knowledge.

They tired Linux directly with anti-Linux websites and marketing materials. "Get the Facts" is one such example.

I can't believe you are so surprised by this.

Anonymous said...

Now how many of you are paid Microsoft shills? I don't know. But does Microsoft have paid shills? Fuck yes. If you spend your time all day defending Microsoft on blogs and forums, don't be surprised if someone calls you a paid Microsoft shill.

Anonymous said...

But if your free operating system *really* is superior, and it *really* has great software, and it *really* will allow the avergage home user to do everything they expect a computer to let them do (surf the web, watch videos online, edit their photos, edit their home movies, play all their DVDs including new Blu-Ray ones, play popular games), then why are you worried about paid shills? Surely they would have no bearing on the popularity of such an operating system, especially a free one?

Anonymous said...

Also, if Linux is perfect, why do you all have Windows partitions for games, audio, etc?

Anonymous said...

The accusations would be acceptable if your radar worked, but half the time you guys end up accusing BSD and Mac users as being "M$ shills". Hell, you guys wouldn't even let up when the topic were LynxOS and VxWorks, two operating systems you people probably never even heard of (and one of you tried to claim one or both was actually Linux!). It really is ridiculous being accused of being on Microsoft's payroll when discussing stuff like Solaris, OS/2, and Amiga.

Even pointing out factual corrections gets one labeled as a "shill", which is absurd. Point out that modern Windows is not, in fact, based on DOS? Shill. Provide corrections to prices? Shill? Inform that OOXML is actually usable all the way back to Office 2000? Shill.

You guys might be taken more seriously if you weren't blatantly wrong 99.9% of the time. You even claim Linux's biggest supporters, like Intel, NVIDIA, and Asus, as being paid Microsoft shills. You guys make it sound like you're the only ones not being paid by Microsoft. Maybe that's why you're so angry: everyone in the world gets to share Microsoft's wealth but you. Oh the irony, considering the Marxist roots of your freedom philosophy.

Anonymous said...

Oh, and what is the point in payomg to squat on an obscure, medium traffic blog? Microsoft isn't exactly known for throwing money toward low ceiling projects. Don't you think they'd go for the best bang for the buck? What sense does it make to hang around a community who is already convinced of Microsoft's validity, if not superiority? Are you people capable of reason at all?

Anonymous said...

"payomg" -- that's the typo of the day!

Anonymous Insider said...

@ Anonymous June 26, 2009 11:02 PM

"You guys [Freetards] make it sound like you're the only ones not being paid by Microsoft. Maybe that's why you're so angry: everyone in the world gets to share Microsoft's wealth but you."

Great post!

Anonymous said...

It is a tenet of FOSS religion that once free software exists people will all flock to it, improve it, and proprietary software will just disappear. With Linux, a complete free open source OS, this idea was put to the ultimate test, and after so many years it hasn't displaced Windows yet.

Why not? Since the zealots will not even consider that their software might be less useful to the majority of people, they have to blame M$ of course with their dirty tricks. More and more they accuse anyone who may say something positive about a Microsoft product or any criticism of Linux as a paid shill or "astroturfer". SJVN's latest missive is about how Microsoft buries stories on Digg (without a shred of proof naturally.)

After patting themselves on the back for exposing another M$ shill, they become convinced that all these attacks prove they've got Microsoft running scared. And they dig in their heels and whip up the FOSS faithful into a frenzy and the cycle of freetardery continues.

Anonymous said...

M$ $hill a$troturfer payed wih monie$! Fuck econmic$!!!!!!!!!!!!! that shit s only holds humanity back!!!!! whn will u fuckrs lern?

Anonymous said...

http://ostatic.com/blog/defective-cds-stall-russias-plan-to-put-foss-in-schools

Anonymous said...

Defective CDs Stall Russia's Plan to Put FOSS in Schools

They probably used FOSS to make the CDs. Make it and let the user test if it works. This story has FOSS written all over it:

Failing Open Source Software

Anonymous said...

For fuck's sake how difficult is it to create an installation CD.

Anonymous said...

Win 7 on 266MHz P2, 96MB RAM & 4Mb graphic card

Thx4DaMoneyMS. said...

Someone has yet to deliver one piece of rock solid evidence for people being paid to spread FUD...

Why.. i'm allmost getting the idea, that "FUD" is simply something invented by freetards getting paranoid? If it is nothing but a false conspiracy theory, it doesn't surprise me that there's no evidence...

PaidByMicrosoft said...

Fuck dude, being a paid Microsoft shill is the best job in the world. I work from home and set my own hours. Microsoft pays me twenty-five dollars a post. I just spam for a few hours and quit for the day. I've earned over 294 million dollars. Greatest fucking job I've ever had.

Anonymous said...

You all really ought to get a life, just like you tell the freetards to. This blog used to be funny and pretty factual, nowadays it seems to be a circlejerk of all sorts of people who either can't figure out how to use anything other than their OS or feel somehow slighted by the existance of a free OS.

Anonymous said...

oooh... But my gripe with Linux is not that it is free! nor is my gripe with open source as a whole!
- my gripe with linux (and open source), is the ones who claim Linux to be SUPERIOR to Windows or OS/X! - me, for instance, does music. and Linux never had/will have a chance to be usable for that purpose! (no usable apps like garageband or Logic Pro.)

That being said: Open source as a whole is not a bad thing.. i use GIMP for standard image editing, and enjoy it!

belhana said...

thanks

Anonymous said...

LinuxHater,

Nice job, you've just been exposed.

giuseppemag said...

What sense does it make to hang around a community who is already convinced of Microsoft's validity, if not superiority? Are you people capable of reason at all?
They are Linux Users, you insensitive clod. How dare you tell the poor souls about "reasoning"?

Anonymous said...

Munich spends 8 million euro on Microsoft software. Bill Gates uses this money to buy a new Ferrari. Part of it goes to India to fund Microsoft's new outsourcing strategy. Very little ever trickles back to Germany, let alone Munich.

Wrong.

Munich pays 8 million Euros for Microsoft software. Microsoft gets most of the money, since Bill's retired. This helps keep jobs here and in Microsoft's international partners. But just for argument's sake let's say that Bill gets a piece of the pie and buys a new Ferrari. Most of that purchase price goes to Ferrari, which pays taxes to Italy and pays its designers and engineers their pay. They also pay taxes on their pay. Back in the US, Bill pays sales and excise tax on his Ferrari to the state of Washington. He also pays property tax on his house, which goes to the state of Washington. Part of this income also goes to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and promotes health care and education in developed and developing countries.

All this and Munich saves 4 million Euros, and their entire staff doesn't have to completely re-learn 90% of everything they know about computers just to make a lateral move.

Anonymous said...

Linux doesn't do SHIT properly, end of story, it doesn't even surf the web as well as Safari in OSX -- using Firefox on Ubuntu is about five times slower.

Anonymous said...

If Linux Desktop is so good, shouldn't it stand on it's own merits instead of depending on zealots to make noise on all MS related news posts?

^ This summarizes every "wintard" comment on this blog.

Anonymous said...

But seriously, who cares who gets the money, as long as it lets me get what I need to get done, DONE quickly and easily? Is Munich so fucked up that keeping a few million dollars in local circulation is a life or death situation?

Anonymous said...

>This summarizes every "wintard" comment on this blog.

And yet, freetards never address it. Because deep down inside, they know the answer.

Kharkhalash said...

I give up. I'm actually going to try Linux for the first time in my life.

Yeah, yeah, you've given up on flailing like a retard on fire and decided to take the even more juvenile approach. Brilliant.

I'm fairly certain I have more working Linux experience that you do one way or another. I don't have the time or patience to puts around with a half-working OS to get basic functionality out of it, nor do I have the zeal to truly believe that if Linux can't do it, then I don't need it, nor to stick with something that either doesn't do the job, or doesn't do the job as well, unless I have to.

It's called real life. You should try it. Understand that familiarity is what breeds contempt, more than anything else.

If you think Linux hardware support sucks, FreeBSD won't help you. The OS doesn't support hardware created after 1993, or at least it feels that way.

A few things.

1) FreeBSD doesn't try to run on every hardware or architecture known to man (that would be NetBSD).

2) FreeBSD is meant for production use, nothing makes it out of Current unless it is tested and deemed ready for production. It runs fabulously on the fardware it does support though, and it's rock solid.

3) FreeBSD provides a rock solid base system, tested third party packages, backward compatibility with several versions of itself (back to 4.x IIRC) and not only a stable API and ABI, but it manages to retain ABI compatibility with Linux, even though Linux can't!

4) broad hardware support seems to be the last ditch effort argument. Solaris and OS X have limited hardware support as well, few people use it as a strike against either, especially since, again, FBSD is intended for production use - You fon't put arbitrary hardware into production environments, do you? And if you do, you don't keep your jobs very long, do you?

Hatertards you are claiming victory way to early. Call me when Munich says "fuck it, let's suck Steve Ballmer's cock because it's easier".

This isn't about wining or losing, it never was, not for the haters, anyway. It's the freetards who claimed victory without first waiting to see how it pans out.

(1) They picked a leader who was a retarded military strategist (attacking the Soviet Union while fighting Britain? Seriously wtf?)

In fairness, the people chose Hindenburg. Hitler, although eventually appointed chancellor, seized power in a coup.

Agreed though, not only breaking the cease-fire with the CCCP, but failing to learn from history and invading in the winter was fucking stupid. Fighting a war on two fronts, by choice? Stalingrad? WTF indeed.

Seriously you guys, get a account so that way the freetards won't pretend to be you when they post.

Done.

Kharkhalash said...

How is Munich going to deal with the crucial Pidgin vs. Empathy situation?

By invading Poland.

What sense does it make to hang around a community who is already convinced of Microsoft's validity, if not superiority? Are you people capable of reason at all?

If seems to be it's more a case of being convinced of Linux's inadequacy than anything else.

We're not all MS fanboys.

Kharkhalash said...

Oh great some freetard stole my name and is pretending to be me.

Anonymous said...

Kharkhalash is more then just a man. Kharkhalash is an idea. An idea being a retard is okay, as long as you hate Linux. In a way Kharkhalash, is not just a poster on this blog, but he is this blog.

Anonymous said...

naah.. kharkas' got a very distinct writing style. Nice try though!

Anonymous said...

Richard Stallman Says No To Mono

http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/06/27/1759255/Richard-Stallman-Says-No-To-Mono

Anonymous said...

Lunduke closes his applications because there is not enough donations, so they will be closed source.

lunduke.com

Anonymous said...

>Richard Stallman Says No To Mono

And the world doesn't care. By the way, love the pants-shitting fear displayed by Slashtard coward-nerds over a framework and "patents". I find it fascinating that in a world filled with murder, explosions, beheadings, and death in general, that people have a fear of software.

Proud Wintard said...

Ive been playing with mono since the mono thread first appeared, and I gotta say. meh.

The danger mono represents for Linux has little to do with patents and whatnot and everything to do with... Someone like me who has used .net and then try mono, and I find myself even less inclined to give Linux or mono the benefit of the doubt in the future...

That entire slashdot thread is diversionary so that they don't talk about the ways that open source has failed. It is an excuse. They don't want mono, because then you have a direct comparison to the ways that open source makes crappy and incomplete software.

Anonymous said...

It's funny with Mono, how the freetards dont even really know what they are scared of! Boogy men and ghosts mabey.

it's "If we write code in C# that violates a patent MS will come and get us in our sleep".

Little do they know (for some unknown reason) that if they write code in any language that violates a patent they are in breach of the patent law.

Would not matter if it was C, C++, Forth, ALGOL, fortran... (you get the idea) :)

But let them not use it, we will be no worse off.


But: the REAL reason Linux and FOSStards dont like it is because it enforces a higher level of programming disipline and creates cleaner and more secure and reliable code.

And its not in FOSStards interest to create a quality product.

Otherwise they would put their
"support halo" "model" out of commision.

FOSS and they wonder why they are still a statical anomoly.

Anonymous said...

RMS's Mono declaration is hilarious. Another reason why FOSS is failing and dying - a refusal to adapt to new technologies and new methods. Mono, .NET, and C# are very cool, very powerful, and create advantages for programmers and users alike. But they don't pass the purity test, so Freetards will be forever stuck in the vi -> make -> g++ -> gdb cycle. It's just weird the degree to which they fetishize the late 1970s as the absolute high-point of computer development and programming methodology. Meanwhile, the rest of the world moves on and advances and does cool and interesting new things.

This is why Linux will be less and less relevant as the years go by. New things will come along in 2010 and 2012 and 2015, and Freetardia's response will be "no, we'll just keep using the command line and X and gcc" and wonder why fewer and fewer people are using Linux or developing for it (must be M$ brainwashing and FUD). Actual talented people will drift away from the Linux community, leaving it even more saturated with the playground insult tossers and the kooks.

Linux is dying, right before our eyes.

Kharkhalash said...

Richard Stallman Says No To Mono

Of course he does. It's not as if the GNU doesn't have its own .NET implementation... Oh, wait.

Wait, so Microsoft may one day litigate over patents. Good thing the core of the Mono team works for Novel who thanks to a mutual patent idemnification pact, protects its users from patent strikes.

Stallman also says no to root su (or the wheel group, whatever), web browsing, gaming consoles, having kids, raising your child (when you should be working on emacs, instead!)

Captcha: Psycrzy - The man is not only a crackpot, but also both psychotic AND crazy. Rarely has a captcha been so appropriate.

.net jerkface said...


Very little ever trickles back to Germany, let alone Munich.

I know you Wintards won't get it. But whatever.


Yea you might have a point if you completely ignore productivity rates.

The savings from not having to pay MS for a license can be easily negated from a few hours of support/retraining. As the other poster noted this investment could only be justified (and poorly) as a make-work project, but even then you would be better off investing in an area that is not already handled well by the private sector. Improving transportation infrastructure for example would be a much better use of public dollars than trying to stick it to an american company that meets the needs of its customers.

.net jerkface said...

Richard Stallman says:

Human overpopulation is the often-disregarded factor behind many social and environmental problems, including global warming and habitat destruction, which together threaten extinction of a quarter or more of the species of life on Earth in this century. Population growth also makes it harder to end human poverty. In such a situation, social pressure to have children is insane. I encourage everyone who has doubts about wanting children to make the decision to have none.



He is right.

Anonymous said...

Anti-Linux zealotry is as annoying as Linux zealotry. It doesn't matter if anyone actually has a point, no matter what all "Freetards" are Marxist liars. You guys are the biggest irony to ever come out of the anti-Linux movement.

Anonymous said...

Linux is the best OS in the world
All other OS is made by little girls

Linux is #1 exporter of pwnage
All other OS are receivers of the pwnage

Linux Linux, you really nice OS
From Munich, Germany to Top 500 supercomputers

Linux Linux, you really nice OS
From Munich, Germany to Top 500 supercomputers

Linux is the best OS in the world
All other OS is made by little girls

Linux is #1 exporter of pwnage
All other OS are receivers of the pwnage

Linux Linux, you really nice OS
From Munich, Germany to Top 500 supercomputers

Linux Linux, you really nice OS
From Munich, Germany to Top 500 supercomputers

Linux is the best OS in the world
All other OS is made by little girls

Linux is #1 exporter of pwnage
All other OS are receivers of the pwnage

Linux Linux, you really nice OS
From Munich, Germany to Top 500 supercomputers

Linux Linux, you really nice OS
From Munich, Germany to Top 500 supercomputers

The Blue Fox said...

Question for all you hardcore Linux users: Do any of you actually use Linux 100%? By this I mean, all you have on your computer is Linux, no dual booting to Windows or OSX.

I tried this for a while, but Linux just isn't dependable. Sure, most of the time it works great for web browsing, word processing, listening to music, etc. But every once in a while a nasty update will come along and break X feature. Now, I'm a patient guy and I'm resourceful enough to fix feature X. However, it takes time. So, if I HAVE to use my computer and it happens to not be working, then I'm basically fucked.

For example, I can't take an online test if my video driver isn't working, and if the test is due by midnight and it's 11pm then I'm screwed. I can't afford the three hours it takes to fix the problem.

Yeah I like Linux, but the sad thing is I don't actually NEED it. If for some reason I had to permanently use one OS I would pick Windows in a heartbeat. Sure I would miss Compiz, and Amarok, but they're not a necessity.

It seems like if you want to use Linux you have to have another OS alongside it just in case Linux craps out on you when you really need it.

.net jerkface said...


He is right.


Ah an imposter. How flattering.

As if using my name and making a blog will save your sorry ass OS. How fucking pathetic that you feel inclined to resort to such tactics.

I can always start my own blog under any name and be an even bigger asshole with even more influence. As if I give a shit about this name anyways. It's a fucking joke in case you didn't get it.

But it's nice to know that the linux cult is clearly threatened by me. Maybe if you didn't have such an emotional investment in a clone of an OS that was designed for 70's mainframes that uses a license by a collectivist hippie who doesn't have to work then you wouldn't feel so threatened by my posts on a fucking linux hater's blog of all places. Good lord this isn't even a mainstream tech site.

.net jerkface said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
.net jerkface said...

I've been using the .net jerkface name for quite awhile here on this blog. And I'm one of the biggest Linux haters on the planet, don't insult me like that. I have to ask who the fuck are you? This whole thing is getting fucking ridiculous.

.net jerkface said...

Dear imposter,

Unlike GPL programmers with popular windows apps you can't make a half-assed copy of my brain. However there is a similarity in that the public can tell the original from the cheap knockoff.

Anyways I had to share a comment I saw at the seattle times website:



I run an old win 2000 in virtualbox if I need to log into my company's system from home, and have Vista on a dual boot for the occasional game.

Aside from that, I'm very happy with Linux. Clean and stable. Oh yeah, and free, along with all the apps. (and pretty much virus-proof)


He's happy with Linux even though he has to run 3 operating systems to meet his needs?

Anyone else notice an increase of linux forum forces activity over the past few months? We'll probably see more propaganda efforts from people like SJVN as Windows 7 nears release. Should be interesting to see if linux loses its 1% on net applications, which will likely be taken by the iphone at some point.

.net jerkface said...

You are the impostor. You are just trying to sound like a real Linux hater and are going to surprise everyone with your freetardation. I know how your freetard brain thinks, it's open source.

Anonymous said...

CHECK THIS OUT

This is an essay by an FSF intern, which reads scarily like someone inducted into a cult:

http://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/sarah-mcintire-introduction

.net jerkface said...

If you are going to pretend to be me then at least keep your rants longer. I rarely respond with a couple short sentences, especially if I am making a point.

Anyways since the Linux Hater blog isn't as good as it used to be I have been working on an alternative tech news website. It isn't going to be openly anti-Linux but there will be plenty of posts that criticize Linux since they are rarely seen on places like osnews and slashdot. In many ways it will be a parody of places like zdnet which will provide relief from the linux forum forces that currently dominate the web.

I will probably run it on my own private winserver so no it will not be a blogger.com website. Keep checking back for the domain.

.net jerkface said...

Free Software Foundation is a dangerous cult. They want to make all software free and open source. NO closed source is tolerated by them. They consider anyone not like them to be members of "the Borg". Slashdot is the primary headquarters.

Anonymous said...

I DON'T KNOW WHAT I AM YELLING ABOUT.

.net jerkface said...

Dear impostor,

I look forward to your anti-Linux website. I just hope you aren't a freetard pretending to be a Linux hater for the lulz. I would find that very annoying.

It's never been a better time to fork LH, the fucker pretty much gave up on us with this five sentences per month blogging style. If you want to see the stuff that really made this blog awesome you have to look at the very beginning.

KEEP THE HATE ALIVE!

thepld said...

You know, I realize now that Mac OS X is an inconvenient truth for the freetard crowd:

It proved that -
1. A usable GUI and a UNIX operating system are not mutually exclusive
2. That it was possible to break the Windows monopoly by actually making better software, unlike the Linux crowd, which claims it has better software, but that evil M$ is suppressing it.
3. People don't give a shit about price as long as it works. Linux is free but doesn't work on the desktop, therefore no one uses it.

Anonymous said...

OS X didn't break any Microsoft monopoly.

Anonymous said...

You guys keep repeating this mantra "Linux doesn't work on the desktop", but you never really give good reasons why you think this way.

It always ends up being an argument that like Linux doesn't work or something, and you aren't going to get people who actually did get Linux to work to ever agree with you.

So basically it would be nice to actually have explanation on why you think Linux sucks so much, that doesn't involve being an asshole to everyone who likes it currently. I guess that's too much to ask for.

Anonymous said...

"but you never really give good reasons why you think this way."

Are you fucking blind?

We've been over this several hundreds of times so far.

Anonymous said...

The funny thing is you really haven't. Most of what you guys do is troll.

Anonymous said...

"The funny thing is you really haven't."

Ok, so you ARE fucking blind and/or terminally stupid.

I guess that settles it.

Anonymous said...

I rest my case. You can't actually explain why you hate Linux. You just know you hate it.

Anonymous said...

>The funny thing is you really haven't. Most of what you guys do is troll.

Who cares? Now go away.

Anonymous said...

"I rest my case."

You never had one anyways.

"You can't actually explain why you hate Linux."

I've done it dozens of times in other posts, just like I told you before. Over your head, I know. Just how many times I have to repeat myself for you to grasp it, I'll never find out. I'd repeat it all again right here, and it would still fly way over your head.

"You just know you hate it."

I just know you're stupid.

Anonymous said...

He's a Freetard, what did you expect? You either have to talk slow or to spell it out for him.

Anonymous said...

FREETARDS PISS ME OFF I THINK I AM GOING TO CUT MY WRISTS IT PISSING ME OFF SO MUCH

Anonymous said...

@June 27, 2009 5:07 PM

Okay mister anon, I totally know who the fuck you are and I'm going to dig through 100,000+ posts of 4chan-like conversations to find your genius anti-Linux arguments. Thanks for all your help!

Anonymous said...

"I'm going to dig through 100,000+ posts of 4chan-like conversations to find your genius anti-Linux arguments."

Or you can go back like a whole page (only 200 posts, 90% of which are quickly skipped over) and find similar problems by many others.

"Thanks for all your help!"

You're welcome. Anything else you need answered by Captain Obvious?

Anonymous said...

Yeah I could totally go back 200 posts in a blog post with 112. But hey since you are so smart can you like totally find these genius posts of yours for me? Thanks!

Anonymous said...

Oh and the last 200 comments of the last blog post was mostly defending Microsoft (in this case, apparently some of yall feel strongly that Microsoft does "research", since it was like going on for like 100 posts). You guys seem to spend most of your time here defending Microsoft, and yelling "freetards!". That's about all.

Anonymous said...

"Yeah I could totally go back 200 posts in a blog post with 112."

You missed the part about "previous posts". Over your head as usual.

"But hey since you are so smart can you like totally find these genius posts of yours for me?"

Go to a previous post (any page). Then press CTRL+F, and search for terms like "DVD", "Blu-Ray", "Flash", "games" and so on. Repeat the process for other pages in said previous posts.

Or do I have to draw a picture for you?

Anonymous said...

I bet he can't take a piss without someone else holding his dick for him.

Anonymous said...

"DVD": Works
"Blu-Ray": I don't have a Bluray player, don't care enough to get one, feel free to add in a YouDontNeedThat(tm)
"Flash": Works
"games": YouDontNeedThat(tm)

Is this really the source of all Linux hatred? You know Mac OS X can't do Bluray and games either?

It's not some massive failure of engineering or what the fuck, Linux will get games if someone spends the fucking time to port it, and they won't because Linux doesn't have the marketshare. It's really that simple.

But try harder. I'm willing to get baffled by your massive genius anti-Linux arguments.

Anonymous said...

No one has to prove anything to any freetard. Deep down inside you know how shitty and useless your Linucks OS is, how pathetic the apps are, and how stupid the community is.

Anonymous said...

Nope.

Anonymous said...

Is this really the source of all Linux hatred?

It's just scratching the surface - there's the the lame fonts, the sorry state of graphics drivers, the clusterfuck that is PulseAudio, but most of all the Linux community screeching ENJOY YOUR VIRUS RIDDEN MONOPOLIST MICRO$HIT OS YOU PAID M$ SHILL!!

It's not some massive failure of engineering or what the fuck, Linux will get games if someone spends the fucking time to port it

Read what the author of Braid had to say about porting his game (which works fine on XBox, Windows, and now Mac) to Linux. He thought the development and debugging tools were totally inadequate for a games developer. So, yeah, it is a massive failure of engineering. And OpenGL is about to fall furher behind DirectX once DX11 comes out with tesselation support and other advanced features.

Anonymous said...

"DVD": WorksForMe(TM), sort of, almost.
"Blu-Ray": YouDontNeedThat(tm)
"Flash": WorksForMe(TM) i.e. I'm lying
"games": YouDontNeedThat(TM)

Wow, what a fantastic comeback!

"Is this really the source of all Linux hatred?"

More like 0.001% of it, but you're too lazy and too stupid to look for more reasons (often found immediately surrounding some of the previous points). You fail as usual.

"You know Mac OS X can't do Bluray and games either?"

It sure has vastly better games than Linux. As for BD, OS X has the high-end editing tools (Final Cut Pro, Premiere Pro, etc) and burning tools too (Toast), and it looks like playback is coming soon too (refs in iTunes) -- definitely sooner than Linux. Either ways, even if Linux was as good there (and it's clearly not), then you'd tie on one point item out of thousands.

"they won't because Linux doesn't have the marketshare. It's really that simple."

That, and because it sucks hard developing for it, and that for the most part Freetards won't pay for shit. See the Loki failure and the Braid game for examples (I forgot, you're too lazy & stupid to look, sorry)

"But try harder."

I have, dozens of times, you're just too mentally challenged to go look on your own.

"I'm willing to get baffled by your massive genius anti-Linux arguments."

Obviously not.

Anonymous said...

Um, PulseAudio is the reason I can play music on my laptop and have it come out of my PC's sound system. I don't why you think that sucks, but fuck you anyway.

Loki is living proof that you can port games to Linux. Also the Unreal series, Neverwinter Nights, Doom/Quake for more examples. The marketshare isn't there to make it hugely profitable though. OpenGL sucks? Tell that Blizzard, one of the few game companies who still make PC games exclusively. I give a rats ass what some indie game developer who no one heard of has to say.

BD is not _impossible_ to do on Linux, in fact many people have gotten Bluray to work very well. Hell the only reason it's taken so long is because of the DRM on the discs, ooooh fuck Linux community for being to unable to break complex AES encryption in a weekend.

Feel free to continue the personal insults, that's really the limit of what the anti-Linux crowd is capable of.

thepld said...

""You can't actually explain why you hate Linux.""

I got one: WiFi support is totally broken. Every other month, the next wireless manager release invariably has a bug where it can't fucking connect to a WPA network, or it won't connect if there's a space in the name, or it won't connect because of some goddamn variable the user can do nothing about.

Oh, and how about the fact that Linux still does not support by fucking sound card? (support is actually on the way by alsa now, but one year after Creative opened their goddamn drivers. That's OSS efficiency for you)

thepld said...

"for being to unable to break complex AES encryption in a weekend.
"

I thought DRM was useless and would be inevitable broken anyway? Wait, you mean that was all hyperbole? oops.

Anonymous said...

I read both the "Linux fonts suck" and the "video drivers sucks" articles, and I can tell your right now, I don't understand a fucking thing in them. You can talk about how much pbuffers and turing-complete suck in Linux, but I don't fucking care. I'm not some kind of supernerd who cares about the insides of Linux.

All I know is I can see some pretty nice fonts and right and video (and no, I am not exaggerating or lying, get a fucking life). I don't care that layers and layers of suck brought me this functionality, only that the functionality is there.

Anonymous said...

>Um, PulseAudio is the reason I can play music on my laptop and have it come out of my PC's sound system

Um, wow. Many people can't get sound to play on the computer in front of them thanks to PulseAudio, but good to know freetards have worked out a way to play a sound across a network and have it come out on another computer. Another huge issue solved by freetards!

Anonymous said...

@June 27, 2009 7:41 PM

Well you thought right. AACS was touted as a DRM scheme that was so strong that it wouldn't be broken in 10 years, complete with all kinds of fucked up spyware shit that standalone BD players must ship with fucking ethernet jacks or dial up modems.

And it was still broken.

Fuck DRM. It only hurts consumers, not the so called "pirates".

Anonymous said...

@June 27, 2009 7:47 PM

That's because Ubuntu integrated PulseAudio like shit. The problem was not broken sound, but the fact that certain applications (notoriously Adobe Flash) couldn't emit sound when another application was playing sound. This has since been fixed. So move on to something else to bitch about.

Anonymous said...

It'sFixedInTheNextRelease(TM)

Anonymous said...

Yeah it is.(tm)

Yawn. Anything else?

Anonymous said...

Funny how apps from years and years ago still work fine on Windows Vista and 7, but Linsux apps need to be "fixed" every sixth months to work with whatever new bullshit layer freetards add to the already existing mess. It's the app developers fault, though, right?

Anonymous said...

You'll find plenty of packages in the standard Ubuntu archives that haven't been updated in years, but still work. So what you are saying, isn't really true.

Anonymous said...

Guess the Ubuntu users are shit out of luck until Ubuntu Priapic Penis is released, then. Of course, it will break other things, but at least you can play an mp3 on a different computer. Sucks to be a freetard.

Anonymous said...

@ June 27, 2009 8:05 PM

You're right, lynx works perfectly in every release. Also, nano works just fine, as do most of the other thousands of text editors. Good job!

Anonymous said...

What are you talking about? The primary problems with PulseAudio you seem to adamant to bitch about is fixed in the current release of Ubuntu. They don't have to wait for an upcoming release.

Anonymous said...

"sudo apt-get install screem" for a non textual example

Anonymous said...

Right, since Screem is not a text-editor.

Anonymous said...

Screem can edit text but it's not a text editor.

Anonymous said...

I nominate Sarah Adelaida McIntire Hottest Freetard 2009.

Anonymous said...

Has Stallman tapped that ass yet?

Anonymous said...

Here's a substantial complaint against Linux: lack of industry specific software. Linux even lacks items once considered industry specific but have moved more into mainstream due to personal computer proliferation, examples being bookkeeping and video editing.

It's not an issue of "haven't gotten around to it". It's an issue of FOSS lacking the expertise to write such software. Good luck getting CPAs and lawyers, who are used to making hundreds of dollars an hour for tedious, mind numbing work, to do it for free. Hell, helping programmers write software is probably even more tedious and mind numbing than their regular work, so there's even less incentive to cooperate.

Anonymous said...

No, but I'm sure he's tapped Danny Clark's ass though.

Anonymous said...

GNUCash can do a very large portion of the average bookkeeping for a small-mid sized company (managing bank accounts / invoices). It's really not that bad, it can even sync with your online bank accounts.

For very large businesses, they are probably going to use stuff from Oracle or SAP, which runs on Linux, but isn't "free".

Anonymous said...

Lawyers do plenty of pro-bono work, by the way. I know people like to talk shit about lawyers, but there are plenty out there willing to do free work for the greater good.

Anonymous said...

GNUCash is trash. I've tried it. It's a joke. Unless there's been some development I don't know about (and isn't reflected in their marketing), online transactions are available only through HBCI, which is great if you're German. Otherwise, it's daily tedium of importing QIF files over and over, assuming you can even get the data in QIF format in the first place.

GNUCash also doesn't have the multitude of plugins helpful even to smaller businesses--stuff like tax and payroll handling. Sorry, but using GNUCash is like heading back to Quicken for Windows 3.1, and I'm not even sure Quicken for 3.1 was inferior.

Anonymous said...

The pro bono work lawyers do is usually their normal work but for free. People doing charity also generally like to work directly with the people to see the effects of their efforts. Helping FOSS programmers make software fails both these qualifications. You'd also have a hard time convincing these six figure salary workers why attempting to skimp a few hundred dollars on software is even necessary. I know a few of these guys and they go through expensive equipment like nobody's business. If you doubled the cost of computing they wouldn't even blink an eye. It doesn't even show up on their budget.

Anonymous said...

I'd also like to say open source development doesn't always have to occur for altruistic means. Please don't insult me for sharing this insight with you.

I work mostly as a proprietary software developer, 99% of I write is extremely closed source, NDA stuff. But the project I work on is accelerated by a large number of open source projects, Hibernate, Hadoop, Lucene, etc. of which didn't exist, our work would be impossible given our current resources.

There is also at least one library, which we wanted to use by wasn't up to par with what we needed. It was open source, and there doesn't really existed any alternative and this project was no longer maintained. So what happened is we ended up maintaining this open source library. We improved it a great deal, but mostly for the purposes of our own internal project, but in ways which are useful to others. It made more sense for us to release all our changes back into the world, then to keep it to ourselves.

The point is, none of the work either on the open source project or our own proprietary project is charity work. We get paid for working on both, and working on either improves the overall status of the project.

Anonymous said...

Death knell heard for Microsoft

Anyone know about this death knell thingy?

Anonymous said...

Well open source has a huge impact. Proprietary especially internal proprietary projects, may be seen by hundreds of people. But when you release something as open source suddenly it becomes available to the entire human population. And no one might use it today, but 10 years from now it might get picked up again. It's always there. I think you guys seem to underestimate or not understand this impact. Source code is a very valuable asset, it's the ultimate RAD development tool.

Anonymous said...

@June 27, 2009 10:10 PM

Linux has plenty of enterprisey tools for managing the finances and business processes of a major company or even small business. THey are just free software or even inexpensive. Take a look at SAP or PeopleSoft.

Anonymous said...

"And no one might use it today, but 10 years from now it might get picked up again. It's always there."

And the open sores crowd seems to overestimate the importance of that. Actually, all that code is a liability, not an asset. It doesn't take much for it to get broken, and the bums don't seem to be able to let go of any of it. The result is Linux, an OS that is still half assed after nearly 20 years.

Tell me, how *do* you get a 1% usage share after all these years of giving your creation away for free?

Anonymous said...

Yeah, SAP can run on Linux, and probably you still need a full-time SAP technician to make everything work.

There's somethign called Duet, the SAP integration suite with Microsoft Office. Oh, SAP runs best on Solaris. Supported Linux platforms for SAP are from Red Hat and Novell (yeah, the M$ PAID $HILL), basically it runs only on stable, enterprise Linux distributions and not on your fucking Ubuntu shit. Oh, and it needs certified hardware too, just to not run like crap (fosstards maybe still use Pentium IIs in their mother's basement as servers, but thisis not the same as running enterprise grade applications on a medium-to-huge infrastructure, you know).

Anonymous said...

"or do I need to draw that for you?"

I think someone already did:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_SO6YabVJPig/SZ85sGAYzjI/AAAAAAAAAB8/iGxF3ThhclY/s1600/image%5B14%5D.png

Anonymous said...

http://www.geek.com/articles/mobile/opinion-death-knell-heard-for-microsoft-and-really-all-proprietary-efforts-20090626/

WOW. The Stupidity of some of the comments is incredible. One gay even wants to change facts (it's not 1%, it's more like 4% when it's partly coudy with 50% chance for rain and I have a penile erection).

You gotta love these "armchair experts" who never worked in a corporate environment or in an IT related capacity managing more than 10 computers.

I also love the "you can make money in Linux, I did". Dude, with 1% market share, and even less in real world, he can make tons of money? That's like saying "I only fix tikihuts and with the 1% available in New York, I make a lot of money."

Anonymous said...

/. has a brand new article on the Munich / Linux transition.

Care to guess what is being said on freetard central about the limux watch blog?

Kharkhalash said...

As far as listing out my grievances with Linux goes, I've done it a good dozen times here, in great details (even offering strategies to address certain things).

You've got to keep in mind that although, you don't fancy sifting through the archives, we generally don't fancy repeating ourselves every time such a person comes along. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last.

On one hand, I don't reckon anyone cares much what people in the Linux camp thing, and the intention isn't to dissuade you from using it. It works for you? Good on you, don't let us stop you. It's more about vcebting frustration, the lot of us have either used Linux for a long time, have had to use it for a long time, or still have to use it daily, largely against our will.

What's curious though, is why precisely the Linux crows feels the need to dissuade us? Why the compulsion to convince us that we're wrong, and in reality our experiences and opinions are meaningless on the basis that it works for some people, and thus has to work for us, too?

Myself, I've used Linux for over a decade, and I'm not alone in that that- we've even got a few OSS developers here (Mara comes to mind). The insinuations and insistences that the hate and frustration comes from ignorance, fear or unfamiliarity are frustrating, and should be done away with. What the Linux camp fails to realize is that more than anything else, it is familiarity which breeds contempt. My needs have outgrown Linux, and are simply not met. It really is that simple, even where it can be made into a viable solution, there are better solutions.

I can either give you the skinny of it all:

It doesn't meet my needs, neither on the desktop, the server, in development, nor as an artist, musician and DJ.

Or I can once again, go into detail in each area listing my grievances in terms of Multimedia authoring and performing, infrastructure, serving, developing, basic use, the desktop, user experience, the application stack, the underlying system, and even the community, the cultishness, the neverending rhetoric, the persecution complex, paranoia, the media shills (SVJN, anyone?), etc if you'd like.

But you're going to have to keep in mind that it's a list compiled over ten years of daily use. It's a long list, and it's probably better suited for a blog of my own, since the 4,000 character limit on blogger comments just won't suffice, it barely suffices for addressing single points.

You asked, and I'm willing to deliver, you can either opt out and accept my position, with the understanding that dissuading you isn't my concern and that you probably won't dissuade me, or we can both waste our time, and dance.

Anonymous said...

He's probably left already, Kharkhalash. I knew someone would come up with the weak GNUCash argument against the lack of bookkeeping software in Linux. Even small scale FOSS companies don't use GNUCash (Ctrl+F Windows). I doubt any business of sufficient size (e.g. 100 employees/$10 million yearly) has given GNUCash anything more than an evaluation. What's the point? To save $300 in an eight figure company?

Then the subtle retreat to backend/cloud stuff with SAP and PeopleSoft, the latter being a dead product for half a decade. I don't know how much SAP goes for, but I bet it's more than $300. Actually, I fail to see how either of these qualify as FOSS at all. Can someone clue me in?

Kharkhalash said...

I don't know how much SAP goes for, but I bet it's more than $300. Actually, I fail to see how either of these qualify as FOSS at all. Can someone clue me in?

SAP is generally used with Oracle, which can in turn be deployed on Linux. I think it's kinda sad, if not somewhat desperate, to claim FOSS when 2/3 of your stack is proprietary.

At least he's realistic and not pushing the MySQL/x86/Linux for mad savings myth, which has been debunked.

Anonymous said...

How poor are these, that have nothing better to do than wasting their time in the endless useless flamewar of operating systems against other operating systems, linux against windows against macos against whatnot, this language or programming model against the other (mono, .net, java, c++, abcdefg... brainfucked) and so on.
How poor are these that spend their time with hate and FUD against this or that.

Srsly - get a life, nerds!

Anonymous said...

Kinda funny deriding others as nerds if you were even capable of finding this place.

Anonymous said...

PeopleSoft isn't dead. It's been integrated into Oracle's product line.

Anonymous said...

Ah, so it's a FOSS victory in the same vein as WebOS and Tivo. Thanks for the explanation.

Anonymous said...

"Srsly - get a life, nerds!"


I'm a mac user and I have an iLife! There's not one FOSS app that matches any of the iLife apps.

Anonymous said...

"iLife -- there's an app for that!"

Anonymous said...

Let me try to explain this from a business aspect. Though I've done it many times I'll again throw out the statement that I have a MythTV farm based on Slackware running in my basement (though for some reason NTP is all screwed and pissing me off).

I work in insurance, commercial insurance to be precise. There are only three main players that provide software to agencies. Vertafore, Applied Systems and I can't remember the other one.

All of these agency management systems run on Windows. They require Windows or it voids the support agreement. They require specific hardware, or it voids the support agreement. I asked if I could run it on a VM, voids the support agreement. I wanted to upgrade to LTO-3 for my backups from the Dell 122T (that's an 8 slot DLT library for the retards) that takes 39 hours to backup and verify my 120gb database) voids the support contract.

And you know what, I'm glad. I know that X software on X hardware just fucking works. When I call into the support that I gladly pay for I know they'll have the answer. I don't have to spend time digging through code.

I know when our employees log in everyday that they'll be productive because they're using something they're familiar with (Office) because they have it at home. I know that they won't actually really be happy because they don't fucking care! A computer to them is a tool to get the job done, not a religion.

For all you retards, the only BSOD I've had in the last 10 years was because the guy who makes our image loads didn't put in the AHCI drivers for the newer generation of machines that support it with SATA. You have to go into the BIOS and put SATA into Native mode and it works fine.

Did you hear that, DRIVERS!!!!! cause BSOD's you retards.

Most of you are kids and I understand that but the scary thing is the so called "IT Professionals" who never get out of the server room and have no idea how a company functions yet still think their way is the best.

Anonymous said...

SAP, eh? I work for a business with c. 1,500 employees.

We were quoted GBP1m for a base cast installation and transition, which was met with enormous scepticism as being an insane lowball estimate.

A few more Windows licenses are neither here nor there in comparison.

Anonymous said...

I just told my uncle that Ksplice allows you to security patch your kernel without reboot in Ubuntu.

He looked at me with that Hank Hill "there's something wrong with that boy" look and asked if I was gay.

Anonymous said...

Call me when Windows can install Internet Explorer without a fucking reboot, let alone kernel updates. You Windows users are stuck in the fucking 1980s with your shitty battleship gray software.

.net jerkface said...


The problem was not broken sound, but the fact that certain applications (notoriously Adobe Flash) couldn't emit sound when another application was playing sound. This has since been fixed. So move on to something else to bitch about.


What about all the people that had their sound broken in the ubuntu 9.04 update? Or are you saying that sound was fixed before then?

Anonymous said...

>Call me when Windows can install Internet Explorer without a fucking reboot, let alone kernel updates.

Hmmm, the wonders of uptime, one of the last bastions of the Freetardia Defense Force (FDF). Not rebooting means more time to rotate your cubes and wobble your windows by leaving your do-nothing OS on all the time!

Anonymous said...

You mean like Ubuntu needs a whole new kernel (and reboot) to install an incremental revision of Firefox?

Anonymous said...

Tell you what. A normal person, as of 2009, expects from his/her computer:

1) THAT IT WORKS. However astonishing it may sound, folks assume that the £300+ thing they just got home is going to work. No exceptions. No buts. No google. No nothing. SHIT.HAS.TO.WORK. Nobody should have to ask the oracle to check whether rev005/L but not rev005/L-1 of a wireless dongle is expected to work. Of course, following instructions like this (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/Ndiswrapper) only to end up with a half working device and a furious (and rational) rage against the guy who sold you the greatness of linux are simply out of question. And truth be said, it's not only wireless having a problem and a half; gaming mice, sound and graphics cards, webcams, scanners, printers, multimedia card readers, the fucking laptop keys, you name it.

2) THAT IT'S USABLE. This means, for the average user, being able to install, painlessly, a set of applications ranging from VoIP to basic 'office' productivity. Once installed, these applications should work flawlessly, meaning that they should do what you would expect from them. This is not the case. If you ever installed linux for somebody I bet it took him/her no more than 15 minutes of fiddling with the new system to embarrass you with innocent questions like "so, how do I make video calls with MSN?". After 24 hours the questions get sharper: "so, where is my external HD?". Give them a week to tell you that they have to keep WindowsXP because OpenOffice makes a mess with their presentations or that they can't watch films when connecting the PC to their TV. To aggravate things, such 'average user' doesn't exist. Everybody has this or that pet hobby, be it music, photography, video, that particular strategy game they sometimes play, whatever. Once more, linux is not a viable solution in these situations: the applications are simply not there (*).

3) THAT IT'S NOT A BURDEN. I too had my geek moments and enjoyed fixing crap here and there. "Oh, look at that, the last update broke XYZ, let's find out what's going on". Sweet. Once those moments passed I started to get extremely annoyed everytime I HAD TO fix random crap forcibly thrown down my throat because quality testing is an alien concept for the foss crowd. Looking up other people reports of the same problem and reading the retarded suggestions somebody will inevitably cast--"perhaps recompiling the ker..."--is not a pleasant thing to do. But it gets worse. Much worse. Sometimes you find out that the cause of the breakage was intentional or due to some developer lacking logical connections and/or showing a total disregard for the users of their software. These cases are the worse by far and can only be dealt with with huge amounts of patience (we are talking about months to years here). The reason is that we are now experiencing 'technical difficulties' due to the constant improvement cycle of foss software, where new features are added to an already existing body of new features. Nevermind X freezes when the application is launched.

That is why. Get the fuck back to your cave now.

(*) I want to be fair here. I DO think that The Gimp is a pretty good piece of software. When reading complains about it one wonders whether every internet user is a professional photographer desperately in need for Photoshop.

Anonymous said...

1) THAT IT WORKS. WorksForMe(tm)
2) THAT IT'S USABLE. I would say Gnome and OS X are about par in this regard. Gnome is definitely more usable then the Windows desktop, where every fucking app seems to want to reinvent the entire UI and bring it's own set of icons into the mix. The Windows UI is a disaster, and that's why Windows is a very hard to use OS for new computer users (and why people find Mac OS X "easier").
3) THAT IT'S NOT A BURDEN. WorksForMe(tm)

Anonymous said...

THAT IT'S USABLE. I would say Gnome and OS X are about par in this regard.

Are You Fucking Demented ?!?

Anonymous said...

"I DO think that The Gimp is a pretty good piece of software."

The GIMP is the absolute very worst photo app I've EVER seen, hands down.

"1) THAT IT WORKS. WorksForMe(tm)"
Yes, WorksJustForYou(TM) so it's good enough for everybody, right?

"I would say Gnome and OS X are about par in this regard."

It's not, and there is more to it than just a desktop environment, namely apps.

"3) THAT IT'S NOT A BURDEN. WorksForMe(tm)"

I read that as "my time is worthless and I have no life"

Anonymous said...

Oh well. Gimp was a good free alternative if you had to do some kind of work on photo, but not have money to pay for Photoshop (or the need for it's features).

But that's ok only if you are on Linux. It's more than a year now that Pain.Net has become really good, and it's becoming even better, but mos of all it's simpler to use than the mess that is the Gimp UI. It also looks more consistend on the Windows platform (the GTK+ UI looks like crap). So this and the fucking slow developement process are killing The Gimp, and really, there are out there cheap and free little programs that can do the same basic things with ease, and that's what most users want.

Anonymous said...

I stand by what I said about The Gimp. Feature by feature it fares better than Paint.Net and pretty good in general:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_raster_graphics_editors

The same way I don't take shit at face value from the zealots camp I won't take it from you. There are many things to criticise about foss; that The Gimp is not Photoshop is not one of them. Best thing: you can use whichever you like most. Oh, wait...

The retarded 'WorksForMe' comments merit no consideration. I just hope this is not the same person that couldn't be arsed to read past comments and blog entries and yet demanded explanations about why linux fails.

.net jerkface said...

The Gimp is good for the price as is a lot of open source software. I prefer paint.net but I would use the gimp if it didn't exist.

A lot of open source software like the gimp and apache are good enough to the point that they don't need forum forces constantly pushing them and slogging the competition. Good and free software doesn't need a propaganda campaign.

Linux on the desktop however isn't good enough for the average consumer. Sure it can provide basic functionality but at some point everyone will have to deal with an app or piece of hardware that doesn't work with linux. Cell phones alone are a good reason for the average consumer to stay away from desktop linux.

Anonymous said...

Good point. I had forgotten about cell phones. Since my laptop's multicard reader is not, and will never be, supported in linux--and of course there are no good applications to sync your phone--I have to connect it with the USB cable and use an awful script to retrieve my stuff via obexFTP. Sure, it 'works' for me.

And since I think it is hilarious, here is what one has to do instead of using some (non-existent for linux) evil propietary application to do this:

#!/bin/bash
#This shit retrieves stuff from the phone.
#To check the interface it's using run obexftp_test or whatever it's called

rm mobil.txt

for i in `sudo obexftp -u 1 -c E:/Images -l`
do name="` echo \"$i\" | grep name | sed 's/"//g' | sed 's/^name=//g'`"
echo $name >> mobil.txt; done; \
echo `cat mobil.txt|sed 's/\n//g'` > mobil2.txt; sleep 1
sudo obexftp -u 1 -c E:/Images -g `cat mobil2.txt`

Ready for the masses, like, next week.

Anonymous said...

Haha.

Talking about cellular phones, one of my favourite excercises ever was to set up a 3G cellular phone as a modem through bluetooth on a shiny new laptop with Ubuntu Horny Hardon. It was something like this:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BluetoothDialup

I don't know if it has gotten any better since then, but that very excercise made me dump Linux for good on laptops. With Vista and Nokia PC Suite the thing worked like charm after two clicks, as it should.

Anonymous said...

Yes, a simple comparison with 10 broad points on wikipedia makes the GIMP look OK. However, once you start using it...

The interface is awful, it's missing just about every single feature that was added in Photoshop since v4 and lots more. It's missing stuff as basic as adjustment layers, most of the nicer tools, smart objects and smart filters, some color modes (like lab color which I actually use rather often), decent typography tools, the useful 3D stuff (e.g. vanishing point), great workspaces, GPU acceleration, the great pano and HDR tools (plus the combining to increase DOF), the content aware scaling, the pantone palette, the well known and decent keyboard shortcuts out of the box, the tabbed interface, a sane (non hard-clipping) brightness and contrast adjustment like we've had for a couple versions, the blending (using stacks) to remove unwanted parts automatically, all the 3rd party filters, all the nice pre-made actions and brushes for it, ... It's missing the other kick-ass apps that makes your workflow work great (RAW, Bridge, Lightroom, illustrator...), no RAW and no Bridge = double epic fail.

Even if you ignore all this stuff (if you don't actually do anything but crop and resize), then it still fails hard, based on having the very worst GUI of any app I've ever seen in my entire life (it almost makes you wish for MS Bob + Clippy together).

In fact, the GIMP loses REALLY BADLY even to really outdated versions of Photoshop.

And not only to Photoshop. It doesn't compare to many others such as Painter or Photo-Paint, or even inexpensive apps like Paint Shop Pro or Photoshop Elements.

Sorry, but Linux is a LOT closer to being a perfectly good, all-around drop-in replacement for Windows, than the GIMP is to *ever* being anywhere near as good as Photoshop is today. They'll still be catching up to basic Photoshop 4 features in 10 years.

Anonymous said...

Much like OOo is more or less as useful as MS Office 4.3 then?

Anonymous said...

Saying the GIMP is "good enough for non-pro photographers" is much like saying Dia is just as good as Visio, unless you make a living out of creating diagrams.

In reality, it's just shit.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, I was just checking the free lance web sites. Not a single gig anywhere where someone had developed a web site in gimp, and needed it converted to css...

Anonymous said...

@ anonymous before:
you've made me remind of an utter craze i read about some time ago:

http://business.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/03/09/2238246&from=rss

"I decided that the time had come to teach our undergraduate art students about free software programs such as the GIMP, Scribus, and Quanta Plus, instead of proprietary programs such as Photoshop, QuarkXpress, and Dreamweaver."

way to give students what they pay for, readying them for a future job...

Anonymous said...

@June 28, 2009 1:40 PM

Real programmers dont design. They just start with emacs write raw css script (from a blank page instead of a template) and come out with a perfectly formatted beautiful web page.

Thats the experience that all those years of using command line arguments to do basic things like launch or compile a program gives them...

/rolls eyes

Ian said...

"I decided that the time had come to teach our undergraduate art students about free software programs such as the GIMP, Scribus, and Quanta Plus, instead of proprietary programs such as Photoshop, QuarkXpress, and Dreamweaver."



...So that when they enter the workforce and are faced with these proprietary technologies, they're completely clueless. Bonus points if you can get a few art students ranting about the facism that is Photoshop!

What a joke.

Anonymous said...

If a person ends up working at a design firm, the firm will have already bought licensed copies of Photoshop, Dreamweaver etc. for their employees to use.

If an individual wants to be a freelance designer, then buying copies of those products is part of the cost of being self-employed, and is a tax write off. Also, if the person is still a student at an accredited school, they can likely obtain some student discount.

No reason at all to "make do" with less featured free "work alikes" (and in the case of Dreamweaver, there is nothing that comes close. Some freetard will chime in with NVU or Kompozer but those are jokes compared to even version 3 of Dreamweaver).

Once again, no reason at all for FOSS in the real world.

Anonymous said...

7:33 PM:
blizzard is making pc-exclusive games..?

*snigger*

Unless i misunderstood something i'm off to play Diablo, starcraft, WoW and warcraft on my mac.

Anonymous said...

"the firm will have already bought licensed copies of Photoshop"

And it's quite cheap for them too. I know a photographer's place (more than dozen of them working there), and they're all on CS4. They have to buy high-end DSLR kits for every employee (like $5000 camera bodies, then they have over 10G's of lenses each and other material), and then expensive studio stuff (Hasselblad with PhaseOne back -- already like 25G's, expensive lighting setup and all), office furniture, rent and utility bills, employee wages, insurance and so on. The $250 Photoshop CS4 upgrade doesn't even register when you look at the big picture.

"they can likely obtain some student discount."

There are indeed (it's $199). And that's besides the cheap upgrade prices available for everybody. Even pros who don't need every single feature don't need to spend $1000 for the extended version anymore. And that's assuming you only need Photoshop, which is by far the worst case scenario, as if you buy the entire suite you get a LOT of great apps for not much more.

And for those who don't need all the bells and whistles (e.g. casual home user), then there are other apps tailored for them such as Lightroom ($99 upgrade) and Photoshop Elements ($79 upgrade, $99 full).

And if that's still too expensive for you, then you can always purchase the previous version 2nd hand from someone else for even cheaper (or even the previous version of "good enough" apps like Paint Shop Pro for next to nothing). I've even seen versions of Photoshop bundled with some cameras for free.

I've upgraded to CS4 Web Premium myself. I got Photoshop CS4 Extended including Camera RAW + Bridge CS4 + Dreamweaver CS4 + Flash CS4 Pro + Acrobat 9 Pro + Illustrator CS4 + Fireworks CS4 + others I don't really need like Soundbooth, for $499. If you use that same version for a couple or years, then it works out to a whole $20/month for amazing set of first class tools. At $20/month, if everything included saves you only a single hour a month (over using shitty tools), then it already paid for itself.

There's just no reason to be stuck with that GIMP turd, unless your the world's biggest cheapstake and have lots of time to waste on a vastly (vastly here being the understatement of the year) inferior product.

Anonymous said...

Much like you can get XP for under $100, and so far you've had like 90 months of use out of it. It works out to about a whole dollar a month for a great OS.

I can't see why businesses won't move to a ghetto broken OS to save such large amounts of money!

Anonymous said...

Oh Snap!

Lunduke calls Linux Hater out on Coding with Bryan. Says LH can even debate him anonymously, and still hasn't heard back.

Anonymous said...

Yet another attention whore nobody. One day he'll realize the world doesn't revolve around him and his toy OS.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if Lunduke IS LH.

Anonymous said...

@ June 27, 2009 3:19 PM

Yup, sounds like a cult allright. First they tell you black is white and red is blue, and you believe them.

And who is the sheep when other zealots think for you?

Got PETA?

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